Discussion in 'The Fire Hydrant' started by Gempress, Nov 17, 2012.
I dont think fighting for change or being active in government is the same as seceeding.
I guess the real issue might be that the treason is being committed in the halls of government, and is the entity we're in the habit of calling "The U.S." truly the union that was founded, or even a legal entity anymore. Except by the decree of the very group that has, over a period of decades, systematically disassembled it?
Admittedly, I have little or no patriotic fervor, at least not for what now stands.
Peacefully leaving is currently illegal so you can either do an ammendment or go by force. Trying it by force of course is treason. Talking about it isn't, but given both the history and current ability to leave, its pushing the line.
Now, is the country exactly what it was 2000 years ago? No. But when you start asking specifics about what should be rolled back or abolished you start getting a lot of blank looks. If many of the changes were made for a reason and there is no real support for undoing those (look at Ron Paul, he may be right, but not does not get a lot of votes) what exactly are you going to change?
The idea of session sucks. We Canadians have to deal with this periodically. Quebec has a vocal component.. much larger than .33%.. that wants to leave. They are equally unrealistic.
Would they keep crown land? What about the native population? (they have already said they want to stay Canadian) But my fave is, so what about your portion of the national debt? Are you going to take that with out when you go too?
They also think businesses would all stay.
The really scary thing is how close it came
"The referendum took place in Quebec on October 30, 1995, and the motion to decide whether Quebec should secede from Canada was defeated by a very narrow margin of 49.42% "Yes" to 50.58% "No"."
Unlike with Texas it would really hurt Canada as a nation as it would force people to go through 'another country' to get to and from the Atlantic provinces.
But your neighbours to the north feel for those who have to deal with people who want to hurt the nation and have no realistic plans on how to survive if they leave.
Hey, I'm all for Buckshot Island
I don't think anything's going to change short of revolution, and I don't think modern Americans have the stomach for it.
But people have tried that. I've seen no sign this was a hoax: people wanted to buy enough land in NH or TX to move people in and toss out nearly all the laws. What was on the list?
That is a very narrow definition of freedom.
A more recent site:
one current scotus justice has already said that peacefully is the only way that is legal.
the basis of his opinion is probably the original constitution giving congress SOLE authority to dispose of US terrritory.
talking about leaving is a dangerous line to walk, because the moment you actually ADVOCATE & suggest to others that they oppose lawful authority you are now committing sedition.
the petitions do NOT actually suggest anyone oppose govt authority they simply ask to change that authority.
losing TX would be devastating to the USA. it is the second largest GDP in the country & it is negative user of federal tax dollars, that is it sends out more tax dollars to the fed than it gets back from them. due to deficit spending only about a dozen states can say that. a very few of the states using more fed cash than it sends in could improve their economy to offset the loss of federal dollars.
unfortunately we're in that grey area where the system is broken & can't be fixed BUT it's still to early to shoot the bastards.
Revolution? What? Why?
I live in New Hampshire and I haven't seen any real influence of the Free Staters on New Hampshire politics. Thank god.
If I where to join a political party it would be this one, http://www.akip.org/.
i'm going to disagree on a few points
1. the vast majority of americans born & raised here still base their identity on the state they consider home. the attitude seems strongest in "states' that existed during the war of northern aggression (on BOTH sides not just the confederate states). my personal experience w/ texans is that most native texans would stay or return from where they currently reside at the earliest opportunity. FTR if TX seceded tonight, my house would go on the market tomorrow and we'd head back there as soon as possible. additionally i know of several nontexans that have stated they would move there as well because they would expect a better regulatory environment for economic growth.
2. the preseumption that most native texans would stay is not unfounded, first because of identity, second because most industry/business is too big to just pick up & move (and may not move at all if assured of more profitable regulatory environment) they may need to stay for financial reasons. in the USSR when it broke up a lot of ethnic russians stayed in the new countries they were already residing in because they had better opportunity than if they moved to the new country of russia. even the ethnic germans (forcibly deported from Ukraine during WWI to central asia) mostly chose to remain in the central asian republics because no one was alive that had any attachment or memory of their ethnic groups previous homeland.
3. the expectation of retaining current military personnel is ridiculous, but the expectation of a certain amount of material staying & active duty personnel from Texas being granted honorable discharge & permitted to return is not. as the break up of the USSR shows, under a peaceful dissolution terms are laid out written ip & signed whereby ownership of material is transferred from one govt to the other. this is mostly for the convenience of the newly weakened central govt. the loss of member states affects the central govt's credit rating & therefore it's ability to generate new debt. w/o the ability to create new debt the fed will have no means of moving most of the material (just for reference when gas was about $1.25 a gal it cost us $60,000 to move one from NC to AZ for training purposes). you simply can't pick up a base & move it so those go to the state by default. if they're lucky the fed might get to continue to use a few bases (like the russian black sea fleet using a Ukrainian base). as for manpower, it is to the benefit of the fed to permit all Texans that want to to peacefully leave their job/service & return to TX. if you don't it creates a potential security & disciplinary risk by retaining them against their wishes. even those volunteering to stay are now potential intelligence risks. likewise returnees open an avenue to plant reliable intelligence assets in the new country.
4. ALL businesses won't stay but neither will they all move. some simply can't, you can't just pick up port facilities, pipelines, oil refineries & factories. most really large corporations are global now anyway and secession wouldn't significantly change their operations. further the large businesses will take a hard look at what will be more profitable for them. if the regulatory environment & infrastructure is adequate & will support profitable growth better, some businesses will move to the secessionist state.
mind you there is NO WAY the fed is going to permit secession & certainly not peacefully, but it is a an important attempt to get through to the powers in both political parties just how far BOTH have drifted from from liberty toward control & how offensive that is to a lot of americans (a very substantial minority).
people tend to see what they want to see. for example the presidential debates, the whackadoos on BOTH sides saw THEIR candidate as shredding the other guy & winning handily. the extremes of both sides see nefarious conspiracies against liberty in the actions of the other side.
the funny thing is that an objective review of their actions in office shows that both presidential candidates were more alike than different.
likewise a review of the main complaints against Bush shows that Obama didn't change a single thing that Bush did that upset so many people.
i'm sure there are a few folks in NH that are terrified of the impact free staters have in NH politics.
The thing about conspiracy theories is once you go the route of a conspiracy theory anything possible. American politics is too filled with drama. People should just go to polls and vote. From the silly political signs all over the roads to the campaign ads, I'm glad the elections are over.
They've had zero impact on the elections here. However, if you count harassing law enforcement as productive, they have done something.
need a double like button here
doesn't mean you can't find a couple of people to go all chicken little about them.
Change, my ass.
Well, except for having a grasp of language . . .
Oh there are certain issues that there are big differences. And yes, important issues that DO matter and are not just smoke screens.
However, I do agree that on many things that are also important they are too similar
Texas has seceded three different times Inge past & it hasn't worked before ... 33% of the population of a state the size of Texas isn't really that much, I just think its ppl voicing their frustrations with the country. That big govt is taking more & more power of decision away from state legislation. Which I get but no, I don't want to secede either. I like the Benicia of being part of the US, tho I get pissed at it sometimes.