Teaching 'Heel', 'Stand' and 'Get that outta your mouth Now!'

[SharkBait]

So Matisse and I attended our first obedience class on thursday night, was ummm... fun!

Well Matisse was finding it hard to concentrate and would hold a sit for about... well about half a second! But that's understandable, there was about 12 other dogs in the room, including an out-of-control-but-oh-so-cute Beagle pup, who kept running into Matisse lol.

Anyways, we had to walk around in a square, while the leader in charge called out commands, like 'Hault!' (stop & get your dog to sit and stay), about turn, stand and down.
This is while making the dog stay beside you at heel. Thing is, I've never attempted to teach Matisse to 'heel' because i've never really found it neccessary. I mean i jerk him back if he pulls too much but that's about it.

So my 1st question is: How do i go about training 'heel?'
[NOTE-Matisse is very food orientated]

My 2nd question is: How do i train him to 'stand' and get him to stay standing aswell? I haven't taught him that either because again, i didn't think he'd need to know it or if i would have a use for it really.

Also, I'm not sure what commands i should use for getting Matisse to drop objects or not go near them at all.
You see, i have taught him 'leave it' and a release 'ok' for when i drop a treat and make him wait before i say ok and he can eat it. And he always gets to eat the treat in the end, after waiting for a while. (This was just to teach him patience and for trick purposes).

But what should i say in these 3 scenarios--
1- He is interested in an object, for example, a plate of food he isn't allowed, and i want him to go away from it.
2. Getting him to drop a toy for me after fetching it.
3. Getting him to drop something he shouldn't have in his mouth, for example, my homework...

For the first i thought a simple 'no!' would suffice. Not leave it, because he might think after waiting a few minutes he can have it.

I was thinking of simpy saying 'drop it' to get him to drop a toy, rather than confusing him by saying 'leave it' seeing as the toy is already in his mouth.

But for the 3rd scenario, I'm not sure. You see, I don't want him thinking 'oh I'm not gonna drop this payslip because Melissa will take it from me, muhaha' when i say 'no!'
So, any ideas? would 'drop it' fit?

If anyone can think of anything better i could use I'm open to ideas!
What commands do you use for these situations?

(Sorry if this seems a strange question..well i suppose it is!)

Thanks, Melissa

 

[corgipower]

Wait a minute ~

This was your first class, and the instructor expects you to know heel, sit, stand, down, halt and turns??

 

[SharkBait]

Yep! and although some of the dogs were about 10-12 months old, most were younger than Matisse! (under 6 months)

You see, you can join anytime of the year, and from there you spend as long as you need to to move up to 'intermediate' classes (which is actually quite a big jump, they have the dogs staying still for like 5 mins and carrying out commands in a blink of an eye!)
While some of the dog owners have been there for a few months, other only for a couple of weeks, so experience kinda varies.
And she doesn't really help individually much, just rather a group thing, like she's an army sargeant and you try your hardest to make the dog do what you want cause your under so much stress and panic! lol
She taught some general methods you can experiment with at home, such as 2 different ways you can teach your dog to 'come here' (that was on thurs night anyways, she must work on something different each week).

So yeah, in order to keep up, i need to work on these commands as much as possible really, but I'm unsure about how i go about teaching them.

 

[corgipower]

*sigh*

I would find another trainer.

 

[SharkBait]

Hmm... I guess, but it's really only for fun and giving Matisse a chance to socialise with loads of dogs. It's not really too serious, but she will give us a few techniques to use and stuff. It was quite cheap too so I'm not too worried... oh well! lol.

Matisse knows most basic commands, apart from Heel and Stand anyways, so it'll give me a chance to work on those.

 

[Spirit2010]

12 dogs is a lot! I would find a trainer who only lets at the most 6 in their class, because the trainer will have more time with you, if you have questions. And a good trainer that teaches, "Focus" and "Leave it" or some other basic command first. That what Whisper's trainer taught us first. We only have 2 dogs in the class, so she has a ton of time with both of us. Good luck!

 

[adojrts]

Good grief, and to think people actually are willing to pay for that kind of total substandard training.

 

[SharkBait]

Forget about the training classes for a minute, can anyone actually help me teach Matisse these things by myself?

 

[corgipower]

So my 1st question is: How do i go about training 'heel?'
[NOTE-Matisse is very food orientated]

Before teaching "heel", I teach attention - using food. You can lure the dog to look at you in the beginning, and fade the lure pretty quickly as the dog starts offering attention. Keep some small treats handy, and every time the dog looks at you, reward with a treat. You can also use a clicker to mark the looking at you, and then you don't need to give the treat quite so immediately.

I also teach loose leash walking before teaching "heel", which I do in a few ways ~ depending on the dog.

If he's young enough to not want to be away from you, you can take him to an enclosed area and let him be loose - off leash or dragging a leash - and just walk around. If he stays with you, reward him (again, you can use a clicker to mark it.) If he starts to wander off in a different direction, run away from him. When he catches up to you, make a huge fuss over him, then go back to walking around.

For heeling, I take the loose leash walking, and require the dog be closer to heel position before rewarding, gradually tightening up the position.

My 2nd question is: How do i train him to 'stand' and get him to stay standing aswell? I haven't taught him that either because again, i didn't think he'd need to know it or if i would have a use for it really.

I train the stand by starting with the dog in a sit and then gently lifting up under the belly as I say stand. It takes a lot of repetition - over time, and it is the hardest of the three stay exercises for them to learn, IME. I use a stand stay quite often.

But what should i say in these 3 scenarios--
1- He is interested in an object, for example, a plate of food he isn't allowed, and i want him to go away from it.
2. Getting him to drop a toy for me after fetching it.
3. Getting him to drop something he shouldn't have in his mouth, for example, my homework...

The commands I would use ~
for the first, "leave it"
for the second, "give"
for the third, "out"

 

[lizzybeth727]

You see, heel, stay, leave it, and drop it are four of the seven or so most common questions people have about training their dogs (mouthing, jumping, and potty training being the others that come to my mind). Many trainers spend six or eight 1-hour classes teaching these seven behaviors alone. They are difficult to explain, difficult for you to teach your dog, and really require a good trainer to give you feedback. That's one reason why people on this forum are reluctant to give you a lot of info, because ultimately, you'll probably need someone to show you how to do it. I'd suggest asking the trainer for some one-on-one time before or after class to ask questions, and if she is not willing to do that, she's not teaching you what you need to learn, and you should stop paying money for that kind of ""training.""

 

[SharkBait]

Corgipower, your advice is very useful, so thank you! I've worked on stand a bit, and he's kind of picking it up, so hopefuly woth more training he won't have a problem with it.
Matisse also knows 'watch me,' the equivalent of 'attention' so that's a good start i guess. And i've tried some of the loose leash walking techniques, it seems to be working for now, he runs after me if i run away, and i click + treat for it.
You seem to be a total expert in dog training, are you a dog trainer, or does having dogs and researching methods just increase your experience?

They are difficult to explain, difficult for you to teach your dog, and really require a good trainer to give you feedback. That's one reason why people on this forum are reluctant to give you a lot of info, because ultimately, you'll probably need someone to show you how to do it. I'd suggest asking the trainer for some one-on-one time before or after class to ask questions, and if she is not willing to do that, she's not teaching you what you need to learn, and you should stop paying money for that kind of ""training.""

Oh right, now i see. Thanks

In my defence i really didn't know what to expect from these classes. You see, before i got Matisse, a women from an animal sanctuary called Mary had to come out for a home-check to ensure our home was suitable. Anyway, she mentioned she does clicker training classes and offered me a spot for when Matisse was old enough. So last week i gave her a phone call and she said just to come along to try it out.
There's 3 stages- beginners (the one i go to), intermediate and advanced (this includes doggy dancing i think!). A different women named Pat takes the first 2 classes and Mary takes advanced. You can move up the classes as you progress, but this could really take a while. It went from about 12 dogs in beginners to 5 in the intermediate class.
Like i said before, some have only been a few weeks but others have been there for months, so perhaps she does the training in 'cycles' and the one i went to was a sort of 'pulling it all together' class. And although she gave me a little individual help, her hands were full with the crazy beagle pup.
So i guess i'll have to go a few more weeks to really see what it's like before i judge it too much, and after all, it's cheap and still kind of fun so i don't mind.
I'll update you when i attend the next class on thursday, but i do appreciate you explaining that to me though.

[PS- Sorry for that dull life story there... lol]

 

[corgipower]

Corgipower, your advice is very useful, so thank you! I've worked on stand a bit, and he's kind of picking it up, so hopefuly woth more training he won't have a problem with it.

<snip>

You seem to be a total expert in dog training, are you a dog trainer, or does having dogs and researching methods just increase your experience?

I'm happy to help, as are many others here. Feel free to ask if you need more advice.

I am a professional dog trainer, I do also spend a lot of time researching and learning. I wouldn't call myself an expert by any means, but I thank you for the kind words.

 

[boxerdog44]

Heel etc

Dogs only learn in indrements of a few minutes several times a day . To teach the heel , have your dog sit and look at you by using food , do not give food unless eye contact is made heel means attention look at me ,walk a few steps reward with play touch verbal or food start again . Insrease the focus gradually you cat also practise using a hallway etc to stay within perimeters of dog at your side . Whern you lenthen heeling make right handed turns slowly with focus , Out reward , when you give you get, Teahing english language and a response of positive will hekp let me know if this works , you may have to stand there and pop food for focus so the understanding of pay attention only heal in short distane a few stepa at first m sit walk sit walk I use touch and play as a reward when the short exercise it compltet sseveral times a day.

 

[SharkBait]

Sounds like a good method boxerdog44, i'll give it a try

The commands I would use ~
for the first, "leave it"
for the second, "give"
for the third, "out"

If i use 'leave it' for when i don't want Matisse to touch the plate of food EVER, and also as how we use it now (drop a treat beside him, say leave it, make him wait for a minute, then say ok so he can take it), won't he be confused?
Because when i say leave it now he ALWAYS gets the treat in the end, rather than completely leaving it alone.
He waits right beside it and if i walk away to another room he'll take it for sure as he thinks he is allowed. Also i would like to build this behaviour up when i can put it on his nose and say leave it, then do the cool catch it in your mouth trick.

Or should i go about teaching him that when i say leave it he might not get the treat every time, or just use a different command for this? Just curious.

 

[ihartgonzo]

I actually think 12 is tiny for an Obedience class. The classes I go to can have up to 30 dogs, and they are AWESOME. I think the biggest factor is the trainers. Think of dogs being around as a bonus! You not only get to practice with Matisse at home, you get to practice everything with plenty of distraction.

To teach heel, I use the lure method. I have a handful of super tasty, tiny treats (like chicken, hotdog, cheese), and to start off, my hand is at my left side, right above his nose. In order to nibble at the treats in my hand, he has to be in heeling position. I repeat "heel", and "good heel", so that the behavior becomes associated with the command. With each training session, he gets fewer, more infrequent treats. It starts off with a constant jackpot, and progresses until he gets only one treat at the end, and eventually doesn't need treats at all. ; D

My alpha command for my dogs is "leave it". I have taught this as an emergency command, and I have never given either of them the option to ignore it, so they do take it seriously. We started "leave it" training in class, with a trainer approaching and throwing a treat bag on the ground. We allowed the dogs to lunge toward it, then quickly started walking the other way, with a stern "leave it". When the dog ignores the distraction, they get jackpot rewards and tons of praise. It sounds simple, but it basically just teaches the dog to LEAVE whatever they are doing alone and focus on you.

Good luck with Matisse! He seems like a very clever puppy, I'm sure he will get it down in no time. C:

 

[SharkBait]

I actually think 12 is tiny for an Obedience class. The classes I go to can have up to 30 dogs, and they are AWESOME. I think the biggest factor is the trainers. Think of dogs being around as a bonus! You not only get to practice with Matisse at home, you get to practice everything with plenty of distraction.

Good Point!

My alpha command for my dogs is "leave it". I have taught this as an emergency command, and I have never given either of them the option to ignore it, so they do take it seriously. We started "leave it" training in class, with a trainer approaching and throwing a treat bag on the ground. We allowed the dogs to lunge toward it, then quickly started walking the other way, with a stern "leave it". When the dog ignores the distraction, they get jackpot rewards and tons of praise. It sounds simple, but it basically just teaches the dog to LEAVE whatever they are doing alone and focus on you.

Good luck with Matisse! He seems like a very clever puppy, I'm sure he will get it down in no time. C:

This is great, I've got a whole range of methods for teaching heel now, so if one doesn't work for Matisse, I can try a few others. Thanks!

That leave it signal sounds really effective, but do you think it will suit Matisse considering he thinks if he 'leaves it' for a while, he'll get it?
I could imagine him running back to get that bag of treats after me praising him with other treats lol, simply because this is what he does now. If i tell him to leave a piece of cheese, then say 'sit' and treat him for that, he thinks he's now allowed to eat the cheese too... Lol

 

[Dekka]

Hmm you would need a very big space to have 30 dogs in a class. But really if you do the math, unless you have many teachers, you are paying a lot for very little individual attention.

Just a quick question before I dole out any advice: Do you want a formal competition style heel or just loose leash walking beside you. They are two different things.

 

[SharkBait]

Just a quick question before I dole out any advice: Do you want a formal competition style heel or just loose leash walking beside you. They are two different things.

Well originally i wasn't bothered about any heel types, and the only reason i was going to teach that to my dog at all was to pass the beginners class at the end, and all that would be needed is the loose leash walking beside me heel.
But then i was told they hold obedience competitions and i became rather interested, something to work towards for in the future. So perhaps competiton style? (or am i way out of my depth with that?)

PS- I was worried that with the dominent terrier personality Matisse has, it could be very very hard to train him to competition type standards or even just training him so that he obeys more than 60% of the time (as he can be stubborn). And the added fact that it seems mostly collies rule the high standard training grounds.
But by hearing your advice and from your pics, your JRT's seem to be pretty well trained dogs! i see Dekka competing in agility in your sig, so this inspires me! Matisse & i could potentially achieve so much more than i oringinally thought would be possible for us!

 

[Dekka]

PS- I was worried that with the dominent terrier personality Matisse has, it could be very very hard to train him to competition type standards or even just training him so that he obeys more than 60% of the time

OK my first piece of advice is to forget you ever heard that ridiculous statement!!

Training for comp has nothing to do with dominant or submissive types (unless you are into S&M) If you go by what people say that makes a 'dominant' dog Dekka is about as dominant as they come. She is also a great competion dog. Today she got her Rally obedience title. (so did Kaiden)

Now training a terrier will make you a better dog trainer, as they are more 'whats in it for me?' than most other types of dogs. If you adorable dog has JRT in him, well no where in JRT's historical makeup does it call for them to work 'with' humans. A JRT (for example) was bred for the sole purpose of going down tight dark holes and facing the quarry in its own den. A terrier is not (generally) going to look to a human for advice. But they can be great competitors and a LOT of fun.

So assuming he is terrierish some of my advice might be different than some other people's. Not that what they suggested doesn't work..just that terriers can be VERY perceptive.


Ok so lets start with loose leash walking. You wouldn't believe how many people I see whose dogs are awesome in the ring..then drag them every where outside of the ring!

When training anything very clearly define your criteria..
So you want your dog to walk on you left side, within a foot of your left leg, keeping the leash loose.
Then you need to break it down into manageable trainable bits.
Attention is a great place to start..but you don't HAVE to (you do for 'heeling') for loose leash walking. I NEVER lure a terrier. Soon (can be within 2 reps) the presence of the food becomes part of the cue, no food, no obedience. This is why I really like clicker training.

What I would do..

When going for a walk, if he pulls stop and back up, when he looks at you click, and offer him the treat. But make him come back to your left side for the treat. If he is in the right spot click/treat. Change direction and speed, click treat for staying beside you. Don't punish him or say no or anything if he doesn't. Just don't continue the walk if he is pulling.

For attention..

stash a few treats, toys on shelves, counters and things around the house and carry a clicker in my pocket.

Randomly say his name through out the day. If he looks at you click, and hand him the nearest cookie. Gradually build up (could take days or weeks) the duration of attention.

Basically if you have clear VERY clear criteria of how you want the finished behaviour to look like, and break it down into small bits, and remember to click the action, you can train just about anything!

 

[SharkBait]

Great words of wisdom Dekka! i like the fact that you can realate training specifically to terriers, it'll be very handy when it comes to training Matisse!
And now i realise why you say you 'NEVER lure a terrier...' i was with Matisse a wee while ago and i said 'paw' expecting him to do it straight away, but instead he just sat there and looked away. Then when i pretended to have a treat in my hand he gave me his paw before i even asked him to! He does this so much, i think i treat him too much, because a lot of the time, without treats, he won't do it.