Strange aggressive behaviour

Rubylove

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#1
We have a friend who adopted a dog a few years ago, in a not very good condition. Poor Tyrone, he is such a beautiful boy, Boxer/Pit mix, a stunning-looking animal, the most loving, affectionate sweetie you ever knew - our friends have worked really hard with him, and he's VERY hard work, but they love him to bits. We were there last night and he climbed in my lap (all 35kg of him!) and licked my face until he went to sleep. Awww.

He is everything you could want in a dog, until he sees another dog. Then he turns into a snarling, growling, slavering Cujo with murder all over him - I've seen it happen once and it was the most terrifying thing. And he is SO strong, it's very, very frightening. Goodness knows what happened to him before he came to our friends to make him that way, they've done EVERYTHING - behaviourists, you name it, he just hates other dogs. His Mum can't walk him - he's too strong for her, so he goes out at midnight with his Dad every night - it's the only time he can be walked because there is little to no chance any other dogs will be out then. He is never, ever off-leash and always gets walked in back streets. Not very enjoyable for him or his Dad.

Now this is unless the other dog snaps back at him - if that happens, he gives it up. It's so bizarre - the only dog he plays with is their friend's Jack Russell, who won't put up with Tyrone having a go, and Tyrone follows him around like a puppy. So you can see he wants to play, he wants to socialise, but if he went for another dog and they submitted, he would kill them. Chester and Ruby would submit straight away, and so we can't allow him to be around them - the first sign of weakness and he's in for the jugular. It makes me certain that he was being trained to fight before he was rescued, and so I wonder if this is something that he can ever be helped with. Their vet told them not to bother, that he'd always be that way, but I don't agree - especially since he can hang out with a dog a tenth his size and not try to kill it.

I have offered to work with him, but it's tricky because behavioural aggression is not something I really do, and I don't want to make anything worse. I work more with puppies and families who are wanting to learn new techniques to train and understand their dogs. Aggression is most certainly going to be part of my business, but not until I have finished the course I am starting next year, which goes for 18 months.

There are many of you here with vast knowledge about this kind of thing, and I was wondering if, in your experience, you have come across dogs like this and how you treated them? For now I have given our friends the name of a wonderful behaviourist who specialises in aggression issues, but I would like to help, too.
 

elegy

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#2
attention work and desensitization. and then more attention work and desensitization. it's a long and slow process, but it's extremely effective and has long-lasting results. if at all possible, avoid putting him in situations where he is going to aggress. it's a self-rewarding behavior, so you want to prevent it if at all possible. find the distance away from dogs where he's not going to lose his mind, and start working with him, rewarding calm behavior, rewarding attention, rewarding sits/downs/tricks/whatever.

and then take a step closer. lather. rinse. repeat. do not push too hard too fast or you'll undo everything you've done.

you're not going to make him safe with other dogs off-leash but really does he NEED to be with other dogs off-leash? learning to behave himself on a leash in public is a much more reasonable and accessible expectation for him.

the book aggression in dogs by brenda aloff is a fantastic resource.
 

Rubylove

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#3
Thank you. He is already a very obedient boy - does everything he's told, very, very eager to please, and I checked last night that he wasn't getting an unconscious pay-off from his owners when he did go nuts - and he's not. They ignore him and move on until the other dog is out of sight. But as you say, it's a self-rewarding behaviour. They are absolutely doing everything they can to keep him away from situations like that - hence the midnight walks.

However, three nights ago his owner was out with him on a leash, and people who live nearby came running out of their house with a pitchfork :yikes: and a mallet, saying they were going to kill him, because he'd had a go at one of their dogs through their fence (on-leash and on a walk). The dog wasn't harmed of course - he was behind the fence, but Tyrone hurt himself ramming his head against the fence, despite being on-lead.

But I agree with everything you've said, and feel that very consistent, constant work with this dog will have a very positive pay-off. I also agree that there is no need for him to be off leash with other dogs, I don't think that would ever be safe, but it would be nice for him to be able to socialise in appropriate situations because he clearly loves it, from the way he behaves around Dexter. I also found out last night that often he's much, much less aggressive with dogs who are physically smaller than he is. Again, makes me think that he was being primed to be a fighting dog before he was rescued.

I will tell our friends that I am willing to work with him in terms of everything you suggested - basic obedience and tricks and so forth. They have read a number of books in their efforts to help him, and they have done a wonderful job, so I will also recommend the one you suggested - they will definitely read it. Also, they are moving house soon, to one with a large yard and lots of space, where they will be able to play with him off leash in the safety of their yard - ball throwing and so forth, more `normal' doggy play time without fear of other dogs being around. I think that will help, too.

They need to do something more, because a few weeks ago at the vet in the waiting room he tried to rip a dog out of it's owners arms (again, he was on-leash) and the other owner went berserk. Understandably so - and he did calm down when he found out Tyrone is a rescue and that they are working with him, but even still, that kind of thing is not acceptable at all.
 

elegy

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#4
it's hard. when i was doing this with luce, i lived next door to a schnauzer who would run the fence line barking and snarling and staring. it made things take that much longer. she still has certain places in the neighborhood where she tenses and hackles waiting for action *eyeroll*

it takes a lot lot lot of time to do properly and effectively. i worked mostly around the neighborhood, at a distance from yard with dogs in them. i screwed up a bunch and went too fast, but we got there eventually.

what kind of collar is this guy being walked on? i'd be looking for something that allowed better physical control over him, if i were his owners, whether that be a prong collar or an easy-walk harness or whatever (i wouldn't use a head halter if he's a lunger).

i doubt he was being "primed" or "taught" to be a fighter. it's not uncommon for dogs to be selective in their aggression.
 

Rubylove

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#5
i doubt he was being "primed" or "taught" to be a fighter. it's not uncommon for dogs to be selective in their aggression.
You're probably right - the fighting culture doesn't really exist in Australia like it does in the States, especially not in Western Australia.

He has a halter (quite a boxy face so the face halters don't fit him properly) that straps over his chest and back for walks, and a super-heavy duty leash, and his Dad is really fit and strong and can handle him physically.

I agree, this will take a LOT of work, and probably his owners don't have the amount of time it will take to do so, although they have done so much already. So I am happy to do the groundwork with him - they really are very good friends of ours, in fact, are in our bridal party, so I feel that it's something I'm very willing to spend the time doing - not only that, I just adore Tyrone and I think he deserves to be helped through this problem. Due to what they've already done, he's so much better than he was, but I think a bit more intensive work would do him the world of good.
 

elegy

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#6
Due to what they've already done, he's so much better than he was, but I think a bit more intensive work would do him the world of good.
it sure sounds that way. i wish you and them the best of luck with him!!
 

Doberluv

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#7
Yup...that's about all I know too....to desensatize and start out at a distance, far enough that his arousal is at a low level. And at moments of calm, click treat. (if he's been clicker trained) And very, very gradually work at smaller distances, but only when he's OK at the previous level.

Their best bet would be to get Click to Calm by Emma Parsons. And maybe try another behaviorist. But caution them about finding the right behaviorist....who doesn't use scolding, yanking, hanging with this kind of thing. What transpired with the behaviorist they had? Do you know what she did?
 

Rubylove

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#8
I think she just told them it couldn't be fixed and to just deal with him the way he was. Nice one. I just love those `behaviourists' out there who take a five second look and give up. They must help a lot of people. :mad:

Click to Calm is a book I have heard a lot about, and because I utilise clicker-training I planned to start from scratch with Tyrone, with a clicker. I've wanted to read that book for a long time, and just have never got round to it. I think I'll read both and apply what I've learned to him! :D
 
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#9
That's a horrific problem and I hope they can work through it.

He is never, ever off-leash and always gets walked in back streets. Not very enjoyable for him or his Dad.

If the owners truly feel that this sort of handling is ultimately too hard on the dog, their only option is to put him to sleep. With that level of aggression, he's just not safe to have out of very direct control. It's hard, and I'm very sorry for anyone facing that situation, but there are limited choices for a dog with those sorts of behaviors.

he'd had a go at one of their dogs through their fence (on-leash and on a walk). The dog wasn't harmed of course - he was behind the fence, but Tyrone hurt himself ramming his head against the fence, despite being on-lead...a few weeks ago at the vet in the waiting room he tried to rip a dog out of it's owners arms (again, he was on-leash)

I understand that the owners are struggling to cope with a bad situation, but their taking the dog into a vet's office with other dogs, and allowing the dog to fence fight with neighbor dogs are both bad mistakes. Any chance to aggress worsens the problem, and increases the risk of an attack. Limiting the dog's interaction with other dogs was a good start, but they need to end his ability to see and react to other dogs while out of their control (the yard) and gain some control over him physically before taking him out in public (ie, within earshot of other dogs). If he can get enough space to seriously go after another dog while onleash, he's out of control, even though he's leashed. I do wonder why he's using a harness. Doesn't that make it harder to control the dog?
 

skyeboxer

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#11
It sounds like Tyrone did not have a good start in life whatever happened to the poor soul to make him the way he is.

If he came from a fighting background that would make him less likely to back down when the other dog stands up to him, don't you think? Unless perhaps his role in life was to act aggressive, get the other dog wound up and then back off... I don't know enough about the subject but I can imagine a dog may be used to 'fire up' a contender?

I totally agree with the desensitising advice. Baby steps all the way but I'd also like to throw in something else that I don't think has been touched on yet. I'm not a trainer myself so maybe somebody else can come in and tell me to butt out or take this thought further...

I do know that tension goes down the leash. It sounds like Tyrone is going to freak anyway but could his owners be making any situation worse by tensing up themselves as soon as a dog is on the horizon?

I also would weigh in and say why a harness? That's just pitting his considerable strength against whoever is walking him. A prong would be better. A Halti if you could get one to fit him would give more control too.

Also ... was he muzzled at the vets. Is he muzzled ever in situations where there ARE going to be other dogs present?

Tyrone's owners are to be honoured for dealing with him and you too for stepping in to help. I really, really hope you can help Tyrone so that his owners are able to enjoy him to the fullest and he calms down to the extent that he need not be walked at midnight.

He may never be off leash and he may never be trustworthy around other dogs but I bet the female owner would be over the moon to be able to walk her own dog in daylight.
 

micro202

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#12
I know a lot of people on here hate on Gentle Leaders, but I have found it invaluable in dealing with my dog who flips on the site of other dogs on walks.

It gives me much more control than a flat collar and it GREATLY reduces the reaction that my dog takes when she sees another dog. No more out of control barking and flailing around. She is obviously still tense and hyped up, but she is physically calm which allows me to actually treat her in the situation.

Before, there was no way she wanted anything to do with the treats if there was another dog within eyesight. It has definitely improved our desensitization/counter-conditioning program.
 

Rubylove

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#13
I think they use a harness that has minimised his desire to pull - but I'm not too sure on that one, I'll have to ask them. Tyrone has a chest the size of a small horse, so I don't know for sure. I will check that.

As far as the fence and the vet incident, well, their owner didn't `allow' Tyrone to fence fight. They were walking past a house with a fence, a little dog who was lying out in the front yard ran up to the fence barking, Tyrone dashed at the fence and banged his head. Still, not a good thing, and that's the kind of thing I'd really like to stop happening. Skyeboxer, you know, you are probably dead right about them being tense on their walks, and Tyrone being able to sense it through the lead.

The vet's office was just a doozy. I don't know the full story but as I understand it, there was not supposed to be anyone in the waiting room - they usually make preparations for Tyrone to come along, and because he's such a sweet, lovely dog by himself, there's no need to muzzle him for the vet at all (although of course for the other dogs it would be a good idea), but again, because of his square boxy snout, it's really difficult to find a muzzle to fit him. So, they just clear the waiting room when they're expecting him, and they put him in a room by himself with his owners to wait when he gets there. They love him at the vet - he's honestly a complete honey. You'd never, ever suspect it unless you'd seen it or heard his Dad's stories.

The night we were just there, Tyrone had been told to go lie on his bed, because he was sniffing me all over. (Not that I minded but they are aware that not everyone loves that!). So he went and lay on his bed, and gave us the most mournful look you could imagine. I said, `Would you look at that? The world's most hard-done-by dog!'. His Dad said,`That's the exact look he gave me at the shelter, I wish I never went that day, I really do'. I said, `You don't mean that' and he laughed and said he didn't, but I know in his heart he did. He loves Tyrone so much, just loves him, and yet it's been SUCH a hard struggle, such hard work, I think he just wishes he wasn't such damaged goods and could socialise him and take him out without fearing what might happen. I think having a disabled child would put pressure on your life in so many ways you can't begin to fathom. And Tyrone is a disabled dog, for sure, with this aggression problem. It's changed their life and their relationship, but they love him and want to do everything they can for him, and would never give him up. Which is why I really want to help them out.
 
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#14
Let me tell you, I know what you mean by "damaged goods". I've had many experiences like that. It's really hard.

I would say use a prong when walking. Take the dog to obedience, public, or private lessons, whatever.

The dog CAN feel the intestity of the owner, and feed off of that, and react accordingly. Have them stay calm, and when another dog approaches, DO NOT REACT. Keep going as if nothing is there. If you react to your dogs reaction, you're just feeding his reactions. If that makes any sense..

It will take lots of time, patience, and work. Consistancy is key
 

Carolyn

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#16
Sorry Ruby, a bit off topic, but I just have to ask, did you mean when you said the fighting culture isn't over here in Aust? that you meant dog fighting doesn't go on? Sorry to say unfortunately it does go on. It might not be as prevalent as in other countries but yes sadly it does happen here too. There have been many reported dog fighting rings in Victoria my state even. They had a special number for residents to ring and report any dog theft, anything suspicious, and to keep their dogs under lock and key.To my knowledge this particular ring wasn't caught as they disbanded and up and left, when it got back to them that they were being watched. It's a disgusting barbaric, horrible state of affairs the dog fighting


I just felt I had to clear that up sorry for veering off topic about your friends dog.
 

Rubylove

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Sorry Ruby, a bit off topic, but I just have to ask, did you mean when you said the fighting culture isn't over here in Aust? that you meant dog fighting doesn't go on? Sorry to say unfortunately it does go on. It might not be as prevalent as in other countries but yes sadly it does happen here too. There have been many reported dog fighting rings in Victoria my state even. They had a special number for residents to ring and report any dog theft, anything suspicious, and to keep their dogs under lock and key.To my knowledge this particular ring wasn't caught as they disbanded and up and left, when it got back to them that they were being watched. It's a disgusting barbaric, horrible state of affairs the dog fighting


I just felt I had to clear that up sorry for veering off topic about your friends dog.
Thanks Carolyn - and no, to clarify, I didn't mean that we don't have it, I was just saying it's not as huge an issue as it is in The States or other places where the populations (and therefore dog populations) are much higher. In WA you don't hear of it much at all, but I'm sure it goes on - where there's dogs there's people who fight dogs. Sad, unfortunate fact of life. And I have often thought that Tyrone was a victim of such people. :(
 

mrose_s

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#19
i have given up hope pretty much on changing busters dog aggresion. so now, insteadm i am working on focus. i get him to focus on me rather than the dog and he's a lot better
 

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