Still Needing Some Potty Training Assistance

[krisykris]

I really need to ask a few questions about potty training here. I've read all the advice, books, articles and for some reason I know that I must be doing SOMETHING wrong because some of my crew just isn't getting it.

I did have potty pads down in the beginning for Lula and Mckenzie (the 2 that have the most issues). We got Lula in December and she was so small and took so long to potty that I was worried about her freezing, and I'll be honest it was part laziness on my end because I was freezing and didn't have the patience to stand out there for 45 minutes in that weather.

As soon as spring/summer hit, I started exclusively taking her outside. She picked it up within a few weeks, but I still am picking up 1-2 of her indoor poops daily and generally 1-2 pees.

With Mckenzie I used potty pads because that is what she was using at the breeders and I didn't know if not using them would confuse her. She did super well with them at first but she came from scheduled feedings to free feedings here, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. I also know that she weighs 2.4 lbs so her digestive track is not very long. Sometimes I even think that 1/2 hour after her eating is too long to wait to take her outside.

So basically this is our schedule -- from 11 or 12 at night until 6:30 am they are all crated together. They go potty, eat breakfast and head back into the crate until I get up.. usually 9-10. I take them out immediately, let them potty and then give them free reign to eat lunch, play, ect.

I think that I am keeping a close eye on them, but with 4.. one always wanders off and will pee the minute I take my eye off of them. I try to keep a constant watch, but if the phone rings and I go to get it and come back and there is a potty on the floor it is really frustrating.

So, I guess I'm asking some specific things. Should they be crated at every moment that they cannot have my undivided attention, where they are all in my sight?

Should I crate them all separately, or still leave them together in their big crate?

What else can I do to drive it home that potties outside are the only way?

We use the front yard right now to potty, but in about a week our fence will be completed and the backyard will be their new place to go. I think that will make it easier on me since I am not having to take them out individually.

Anyhow, getting off track. I'm not a beginner to potty training, but I am definitely doing something wrong to confuse them and am just looking for some insight!

Thanks!

 

[Doberluv]

I see a few things that stick out to me.

They go potty, eat breakfast and head back into the crate until I get up

I would recommend that they go potty, eat breakfast, play for 15 or 20 minutes and then go potty/poo again, then go in the crate.

Free feeding makes it difficult to establish a pattern. If you need to feed more frequent meals, no problem, but just leaving it down for them is a mistake, IMO.

Those indoor puppy pads can definitely confuse the pups for outdoor training. They're shown to go inside. Therefore, inside is an acceptable toilet. They don't know. Once they go inside a lot, it reinforces to them the "fact" that this is indeed the bathroom. The scent is there and that signals to them that it is the right spot to go. Have you used Nature's Miracle? It helps but is not going to remove all the scent for the dog's sense of smell....mostly just ours.

So, I guess I'm asking some specific things. Should they be crated at every moment that they cannot have my undivided attention, where they are all in my sight?

YES. Absolutely. You must prevent anymore elimination inside.

Should I crate them all separately, or still leave them together in their big crate?

If you are confident that they will not get in a fight, that they never get in squabbles over things, you could crate them together. I do with my Chi's sometimes. But if you're in doubt at all, I'd crate them seperately if you're not at home.

What else can I do to drive it home that potties outside are the only way?

Make going outside the best thing that ever happened to them. LOL. HIGH value treats the second they finish going. Your timing must be right on. I mean the very instant they begin to rise from squatting. Loads of praise and attention. This will help them hurry up and go because they'll start looking forward to a treat. Use a cue while they're going. Softly say the cue of your choice. ie: "Go potty." (whatever)

Literally, do no take your eyes off them inside. Take them out more frequently than you would expect is needed. Prevent indoor elimination.

The fact that you started out with the pee pads inside probably has a lot to do with their confusion, although I do hear of people using both. So many behavior "problems" can be turned around fairly easily. Potty training, when it's ingrained to go inside is not one of those easily turned around. So it will take a ton of diligence.

Check out that sticky thread...."How to potty train w/o being mean." (or something to that effect) Mordy's methods stands out in my mind. But there are lots of good tips in there. It's like starting all over with your dogs, just as if they were pups.

PS....don't scold if you catch them going inside. You can interrupt them with an "eh-eh" and take them out, but harsh scoldings can make the problem even worse. (lots of bad side effects....the way dogs can interrpet things)

Keep us posted. Good luck.

 

[Herschel]

Dober covered everything.

When you take them out, don't just stand and wait for them to go to the bathroom. Walk as much as you have to until they go.

 

[Doberluv]

It will be hard, if you take them all out at the same time because in order for the reinforcer to have an effect, it has to be given instantaneously, right after the dog finishes going. Otherwise, if they're walking away and you then reward, they're being reinforced for walking away or whatever else they may be doing. The timing is everything. If they're all spread out in the yard, it will be difficult to get to each dog with the reward quickly enough. Maybe you can take two at a time and see if that works. (?) Praise is good, but getting a yummy treat in association with going to the bathroom in your designated spot is even more definitive. It really makes them connect good things with what they're doing.

Right now, as we speak, I'm sitting here with a big spoon of peanut butter. My son got a new gun, (a Glock .9 mm) and is target shooting outside. It's LOUD and the dogs aren't use to that sound. They're OK with thunder and fireworks though. But this is different. So, when he begins firing, I hold out the spoon so each dog can get some licks while the gun is going off....at the same time. Two of the dogs, the girls are a little alarmed, not too bad. The boys aren't fazed by it. But I'm still trying to associate some special treat with the noise. "Hey, that's not a pleasant noise at all.....but gee wiz! Good stuff happens when I hear it." After a few days of this, I'm hoping that they'll get habituated to it and not worry or be too nervous.

Dogs learn strongly by association.

 

[krisykris]

I really appreciate the WONDERFUL advice, thank you so much! I do get overwhelmed with all 4 some days, and the past few weeks it has been so disheartening for me that I can't get them to get it.

I never blame them, I know it's what I'm doing that makes it hard for them to learn. And I do take them out one on one as of right now, but i'll just stand there w/them on the flexi and let them roam the yard. I'm sure that I should be walking them in the morning, even if it is up and down the street to stimulate them to go.

One more question. A lot of times they will plop down with a stick they find in the yard and just chew for 20 minutes. What should I do to get their attention off of the stick and back onto pottying?

I usually take it, then say go potty and keep repeating myself.. but I'm not sure if that's so effective.

We do use Natures Miracle A LOT in this house, lol. But I think they can still smell their scent. We are regrouting all of our tile next weekend and I'm hoping if we can prevent all the accidents from there on out, it will be hard for them to find their smell inside.

 

[Doberluv]

I would say to take them on their leash, walk around a little bit to get their bowels moving. No stick chewing, no playing....this is potty time. If they don't go within say, about 5-10 minutes, back inside straight away to crates, if you're using crates. Or, if not extreme supervision. Then try again in another 10-15 minutes.

Try to separate potty time from play time so when you're just taking them out for pottying, not a walk, not for play.....just for doing their business.... they'll just hurry up and go....if they have to.

Remember to only use your cue word WHILE they're in the act of going or they'll associate it with whatever it is they're doing at the time....until you're sure they've made the connection between the word and going. So, if they're chewing on a stick and you keep saying, "go potty, go potty," they'll learn that "go potty" means to chew on a stick. Later, after many repititions, if you can notice when a dog is just about to go, they're circling around, starting to squat, say, "go potty." Then say, "gooooood." But keep it low key. Then upon finishing, they get the treat. The reason the treat comes immediately after and not during is it can get them too excited and they forget to finish....same with the low key, quiet praise. Then, down the road a little, you can try the cue out head of time and see if it gets them to hurry it up and go. LOL. I don't really know how valuable giving a cue is. Everyone says to do it. I do it. But if they don't have to go, they don't have to go. Then you've given a cue which didn't make them do anything and it probably looses a lot of it's meaning anyhow. If they gotta go, they're gonna go.......and they'll go whether or not you give them a cue, right? LOL. So, who knows.....I guess it might be useful if you're someplace outdoors where you don't want them to go and you keep on walking, not letting them go. Then you get to the place where they're allowed to go and you give them permission to let loose. LOL. "go potty."

Remember to give an extremely high value treat when they go, just as they finish. This will also help them to learn to hurry up so they can get their treat.

 

[krisykris]

Omg Doberluv thank you so much! From the minute we get outside, I say "go potty" OVER and OVER again and I'm such a bonehead I didn't even realize it!

I've taken the advice so far this morning, although Kenzie already had accident number one. She went out at 6:20.. both pee and poo, then she ate and drank at about 7:00. Just as I was going to pick her up and take her outside she popped a squat. So I picked her up, took her outside... she obviously didn't go.

So now she is in the crate and her big "sis" Emma is in there with her voluntarily, lol.

I'm going to take everyone out in about 45 minutes to an hour. I know the 3 others can definitely hold it that long and Kenzie won't go in her crate so we should be okay there too

 

[Doberluv]

although Kenzie already had accident number one. She went out at 6:20.. both pee and poo, then she ate and drank at about 7:00. Just as I was going to pick her up and take her outside she popped a squat. So I picked her up, took her outside... she obviously didn't go.

What time did Kenzie already have the accident number one? In other words, how much time elapsed between that and the 6:20 pee and poo? Then....after she ate and drank at about 7:00 did you take her out immediately or how much later? And the 3rd question is how old is she?

And you're not a bone head! It's just that since they don't understand English like we do, they can only learn what words sort of mean by association or tying the word to some thing.....so using cues before they've made the connection doesn't make them do the thing you're wanting them to do. They don't understand it.

 

[krisykris]

I am just now seeing this, oops!

She had accident number one right after she ate.. I'd say 7:10. I was one step from her and she squatted down in front of me and peed.

She was crated between 6:20 and 7:00. As soon as she was done eating, 10 minutes later, I went to take her out.

She's about 5.5 months.

I've been trying not to say potty potty potty, LOL. I just say it when they go and jump around yelling like a fool hehe. My neighbors love me I'm sure haha. I'm their 6 am wake up call... GOOOOOD POOOOTTTTTTTTY!