Specific breed or type sports and titling

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by AdrianneIsabel, Apr 9, 2013.

  1. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Does anyone have links for blogs or what not as to why it's okay and better to keep certain sports breed specific? I am looking specifically at things like lure coursing, hunt trials, etc.

    If you'd like to share any against as well that is fine but I am specifically trying to understand the other side of the debate.
     
  2. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    Still trying to get Sloan into a field test? ;)
     
  3. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    lol Naw, not currently. I'm actually just trying to understand the alternative side of the argument.

    For example I'm not sure if I care about non-sighthounds not being able to trial beyond entry level in AKC lure sports but I am curious the reasoning behind it.
     
  4. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    The only valid argument I know of is in herding.

    Are those non-herding dogs ACTUALLY herding, or are they just chasing sheep? Is that fair to the sheep?
     
  5. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    I don't have a blog, don't know of any and my opinion usually counts for ****, but I'm going to write them down anyway.

    Pro's of keeping a sport breed specific

    There's no confusion. People that know retrievers know retrievers, those that know shepherds, judge shepherds. GSD's herd much differently than BC's. Their jobs are much different they should be held to different standards.

    I think you'd have a more true to standard breed maybe???

    I think some focus can help breeders and handlers alike. There are a lot that jump from breed to breed and everytime they meet a new on, they get one. Some are breeding multiples without ever truly understanding one.

    That said, i'm more of a middle of the road type of person. I don't care what somebody wants to do with their dog. If you want to enter a shepherd in a field trial for pointers and want to be judged by that standard, go for it.

    If you have a beagle you think can run fast, and want to lure course? go ahead. I suppose if there are problems with availability and all the spots are filled up with waiting lists, then you restrict it a bit more. Otherwise, let them pay their entry fee and play too.
     
  6. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    The problem I have is that herders don't all herd the same. A shepherd and a collie are really different. Then in the lower level type trials I would think it wouldn't be impossible to train dogs to 'obedience hers' really dog broke sheep.

    But then you run into the sticky situation of if this dog of whatever breed isn't actually going to ever be used as a working farm dog then is it right to train said dog on sheep, causing stress to the sheep? I do think there's value but that's a more hardcore line I've heard from stock people against 'weekend warrioring' with any breed.

    I always do kind of look funny at people doing stock work with non traditional breeds though.
     
  7. BlackPuppy

    BlackPuppy Owned by Belgians

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    Is there more lure coursing than chasing a plastic bag around?

    What I do like about the AKC CATs is that there aren't a bunch of dogs out there together. Now if only there were some within 2 hours drive of my home.

    http://classic.akc.org/pdfs/events/coursing_ability_test/TitlesByBreed.pdf
     
  8. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    There are several titles beyond the CAT. Last I read they are limited to sight hounds only, maybe there was a change? Further there are organizations specific to sight hounds for racing, maybe AKC has bent?

    That being said I am referring to things like this: Senior Hunter Retriever
    This is a hunting test title available to versatile hunting breeds that are allowed to enter a second hunting test. A dog must receive qualifying scores at 4 licensed or member Retriever Hunting Tests. Breeds eligible for this title are: American Water Spaniel; Boykin Spaniel; German Shorthaired Pointer; German Wirehaired Pointer; Vizsla; Weimaraner; Wirehaired Pointing Griffon.
    [ Hunting Test ]

    Master Hunter Upland
    This is a hunting test title available to versatile hunting breeds that are allowed to enter a second hunting test. A dog must receive qualifying scores at 4 licensed or member Spaniel Hunting Tests. Breeds eligible for this title are: Curly-Coated Retrievers; Flat-Coated Retrievers.
    [ Hunting Test ]

    And this: http://classic.akc.org/events/lure_coursing/eligible_breeds.cfm

    All dogs one year of age or older from the following breeds are eligible to participate in Lure Coursing Events.

    AKC Recognized Breeds
    Afghan Hound
    Basenji
    Borzoi
    Greyhound
    Ibizan Hound
    Irish Wolfhound
    Italian Greyhound
    Pharaoh Hound
    Rhodesian Ridgeback
    Saluki
    Scottish Deerhound
    Whippet
    * Foundation Stock Service Breeds
    Azawakh
    Cirneco Dell’Etna
    Norrbottenspets (effective 7/1/11)
    Peruvian Inca Orchid (effective 9/1/12)
    Portuguese Podengos (Medio & Grande)
    Portuguese Podengo Pequeno (effective 1/1/12)
    Sloughi
    Thai Ridgeback


    * May compete for suffix titles only
     
  9. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    Considering more birds would need to be killed for additional non-gundogs in hunt tests, the same argument could apply.
     
  10. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    I didn't even think of that!
     
  11. Raegan

    Raegan Member

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    No links, but, the argument I have heard is non-traditional breeds would dilute the sport.

    My Duck Toller wants to bark at rats, the tunnels for Earth Dog should be big enough to accommodate him.

    My Toy Poodle wants to do hunt tests, you should use pigeons so he can pick them up.

    There's a worry that the rules might be changed to accommodate off breeds. I do think there is some merit to this, it's beneficial to the governing bodies to have a reasonable qualifying rate so people want to keep entering. If you never make progress, there's not much incentive to keep trialing.

    And there are examples of sports that are ostensibly open to any breed, but in reality are one entered by one.

    Field trials allow any breed of retriever, but the vast majority of dogs are Labs (and specifically BLACK labs). Yellow labs are practically an off breed for field trials.

    I'm sure there's some herding venue that's open to any dog that can do the work, but all the dogs entered are Border Collies. That working Border Collie registry has a process for non-BC's to enter the breeding pool, but it's impossible to actually pass.

    And if these breed/type specific sports are breeding tests, it's not the same if dogs are trained to the task vs instinctive (however we can also have the argument that the "on breeds" are trained over their instincts).
     
  12. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    I am not really for or against, I'm open minded and all I ever hear is the we want to play too complaint, I am curious to hear the opposing and appreciate any input.

    It interests me, a lot.
     
  13. BlackPuppy

    BlackPuppy Owned by Belgians

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    For non sighthounds there is:
    CA
    CAA
    CAX
    CAX2
    CAX3, etc.

    From the list I attached. But it's just doing the same thing over and over again.
     
  14. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    And there is a whole world of titles available only to sight hounds.
     
  15. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    Well, I don't have any of the blogs, etc, that Adrianne was asking for, but since we're all discussing it, I'll wade in.

    I do the CAT test with my non-coursing breed, and I'm okay with my dogs not being allowed to compete in the true coursing. It's a safety thing, and a fairness thing. The CAT test has less sharp angles, and the dogs run separately, both of which are hugely safer. (I talked to someone who knew of a Whippet that died during a coursing event when it was T-boned by another dog.) Also, in coursing competitively, the dogs are matched up by breed. Borzoi run against Borzoi, Basenjis run against Basenjis, etc. How would you do that fairly if you were allowing all breeds and mixes?

    There is an all-breed coursing organization that has competitive coursing, but I'd be a little uncomfortable with it because of the safety angle. I know when I run Tess, she's going to be only interested in chasing the bag. What's my guarantee that the other dog out there is going to be the same?

    I do kind of wish that there was a "higher" level of titling, in that the CAT test is pass/fail, which is great, but it would be nice if Tess' superlative performance could win her a little more than a dog that just barely scrapes by. However, that could be complex to set up, and might not meet a lot of support, so I'm okay with it how it is.

    I wish that some of the other sports were open to dogs that can do the activity. A lot of non-herding breeds will herd, for instance, so I wish they could title in that if they can do the work. Most dogs won't fit down an earthdog tunnel, but if they will, and will do the work, why not let them? I was always sad that my Tully didn't get to play that game, which she would have loved. And I have a friend with a Miniature Bull Terrier who is bigger than Pirate, and does earthdog, so the "won't fit" argument doesn't hold. Some of the rules about which breeds can do a certain activity are sort of arbitrary.

    Most likely, if herding, gundog events, etc, were open to all breeds, there wouldn't be many off-breeds participating anyway. But I still wish that those who wanted to, could. I will say though, that I don't find myself caring as much these days, with so many things available to all dogs.
     
  16. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    In theory. The course Rocket, Kaylee, Gwen, and Logan ran this past Saturday had some pretty sharp angles. It was the same course the sighthounds were running.
     
  17. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Did they change it at all when the sight hounds ran upper level title runs?
     
  18. Oko

    Oko Silence, peasants.

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    Okay, first off I've seen photos/heard of kelpies at USBCHA trials, which are predominantly border collies. I also know of someone who runs shelties. Second of all, it is not impossible to get a dog registered on merit, which is open to non-papered border collies (if the dog gets registered, it's not a non-BC). Dogs have passed it and gotten ROM. Is it hard? Yes. It could be considered too hard, but it is not impossible.
     
  19. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    The kelpies that run in usbcha all work like a border collie. It's not going to be a fair test for other styles of work like the dogs that tend clocks or even loose eyed dogs.
     
  20. SizzleDog

    SizzleDog Lord Cynical

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    No, they don't. They set the course at the beginning of the day, and that's the course all sighthounds run (regardless of breed, size, or title progression) unless there is a problem with the field and the judge decides to change the course due to safety concerns.

    Technically, CAT courses are supposed to be shorter and have less severe angles. But more often than not, when held in conjunction with lure coursing trials, CAT courses do tend to be the "regular" sighthound courses.

    Here's a sighthound course... it was 900ish yards:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVXDvEnvFyM

    Compared to a CAT course, which was 600ish yards:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg_hGQhrEgM

    Kaylee was not as in shape for the 900yd course as she was for the 600yd course, but that was her first exposure to lure coursing.


    Here's what I've heard from *some* sighthound folks as to why non-sighthounds shouldn't be allowed to run:
    - CAT people aren't willing to help with the trial. (Ask us and we will!)
    - CAT people ruin our equipment. (Um... what?)
    - CAT people take time away from the sighthounds. (CATs I've seen have been very efficient... in Lincoln, we got through 20+ CATs in the time it took to run a single sighthound breed.)

    On the other hand, here's what I've heard from other sighthound folks as to why non-sighthounds should be allowed to run:
    - Get 'em hooked with the CAT, then sell them a sighthound. Help the sport grow.
    - A lot of the CAT dogs run just as well as some of the "off" sighthound breeds. (A Doberman could "cut it" with Ridgebacks, etc.)
    - A lot of the CAT dogs of a specific breed show more collective coursing aptitude than even some of the sighthound breeds. (Dobes as a whole are more keen to chase those bags than, say, Wolfhounds as a breed.)

    I have met some wonderful people who have welcomed me into the sport. Most have been Ridgeback and Ibizan people. I have met some real turds who have tried to scare me away from the sport as well. But I figure as long as AKC offers CATs, and as long as my bitch keeps running "like a serious coursing dog" ... I'll keep doing it. (Though I do wish she had a tail sometimes... some sharp corners with a 2" tail have proven to be interesting!)
     

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