Social Learning Theory discussion

Criosphynx

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#21
Yeah, have you ever seen somone's eyes cross when you start explaining Operant Conditioning quadrants to them? :rofl1:

I know a lot of trainers who still don't get them
. :D

Sorry, I'll stick to the foundations of what's been studied and documented in nature to help round out the laboratory theories, when it comes to the real world.

Both areas do have value though. ;)
No I haven't.

thats really sad. I wonder why you are immersed in trainers who can't understand their craft?
 

lizzybeth727

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#22
Yeah, have you ever seen somone's eyes cross when you start explaining Operant Conditioning quadrants to them? :rofl1:

I know a lot of trainers who still don't get them. :D
Why would you explain operant conditioning quadrants to clients? I can't imagine where that would be necessary, unless the client seems particularly interested and/or has a degree in psychology and you're refreshing their memory.

If a trainer can't communicate to a client how to train the dog, it doesn't matter what method the trainer is using the client is not going to get it.
 

Angelique

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#24
I wonder why you are immersed in trainers who can't understand their craft?
More like a sometimes inescapable fact when reading through various dog sites. But enough about me...

Any personal experiences in Social Learning? Comments in regards to the links? Albert Bandura's Social Learning Theory? How the many different social animals exchange information in order to save energy and avoid personally experiencing the "positive punishments" of their environment? Is Social Learning a myth? Are humans more superior than animals in Social Learning aptittude due to their written and verbal language skills?...

Anything? C'mon, step out of the box...it's nice out here. :)
 

Criosphynx

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#25
More like a sometimes inescapable fact when reading through various dog sites. But enough about me...

Any personal experiences in Social Learning? Comments in regards to the links? Albert Bandura's Social Learning Theory? How the many different social animals exchange information in order to save energy and avoid personally experiencing the "positive punishments" of their environment? Is Social learning a myth? Are humans more superior than animals in Social Learning aptittude due to their written and verbal language skills?...

Anything? C'mon, step out of the box...it's nice out here. :)
I unlike you are not on a soapbox preaching.

I've asked lots of questions both in this thread and in the other one that you did not answer. May other posters feel the same way.

I do not have the time to read through tons of links that people who know more about this than i have already dismissed.
perhaps you should answer the questions posed at you first.
 

Dekka

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#27
Well I have been discussing the RELEVANCE of the links. Social learning is good and fine. But what application does it have with training animals?

For example take horses. They are animals that if untrained are a menace. These are animals that are more 'trained' than dogs. They have more 'danger' factor than dogs. I have seen some social learning happen horse to horse. (not much but a bit) But it doesn't affect how we train them. Horses know we are not horses. Social learning, while interesting and useful when studying animals isn't all that practical when it comes to training them.

Most of the methods used by animal people who try social learning are often go horribly wrong, are cruel, or have dangerous results.
 

corgipower

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#28
But I'm afraid I see a lot going on between dogs and owners socially (emotionally, and mentally) which impacts the effectiveness of one's success with OC and CC, and seek to understand this impact.
Well, yes. As do many of us. A dog certainly cues into the owner's emotions. But I don't see that as "social learning".

Desensitization works great with truely fearful dogs. Not aggressive dogs who have been mislabeled as "reacting in fear". There's a difference.
There are so many different types of aggression. Fear is one, and for that yes, desensitizing works. It also works for some of the other types of aggression. For some aggression (prey aggression, for example), simple obedience works (a dog can't bite if he's on a sit stay). For some, better handling skills need to be taught to the owner (examples: misdirection, frustration). For some, vet care is needed (hypothyroid, pain management, etc.)

Still not overly complicated. ;)

Any personal experiences in Social Learning? Comments in regards to the links? Albert Bandura's Social Learning Theory? How the many different social animals exchange information in order to save energy and avoid personally experiencing the "positive punishments" of their environment? Is Social Learning a myth? Are humans more superior than animals in Social Learning aptittude due to their written and verbal language skills?...
"Any personal experiences in Social Learning?" I posted about Tyr and have yet to see replies on that from you :confused:

"How the many different social animals exchange information in order to save energy and avoid personally experiencing the "positive punishments" of their environment?" Three men walked into a bar. Which was pretty stupid because after the first one walked into it, the other two should have known it was there. :cool:
 

Angelique

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#29
Well I have been discussing the RELEVANCE of the links. Social learning is good and fine. But what application does it have with training animals?
It makes us aware of what we may be communicating to the animal about both ourselves and the environment and increases the success of the chosen training methods, especially in social environments.

For those who are good at using this philosophy, an environmental example of how a dog may percieve a new person who enters the picture as either friend or foe, can be influenced by how you greet that stranger.

Walking side-by-side with a calm dog can help another dog become calm and communicate to both dogs that we are working together.

I use both of these a lot.

Understanding which human behaviors can be misintepreted "in dog" and make a dog uncomfortable in social situations (such as staring at them) can be very helpful in knowing how to put a dog at ease. Then you can also throw in a treat to make a positive association.

It's about improving the social relationship and aiding the training proccess, not replacing.

Most of the methods used by animal people who try social learning are often go horribly wrong, are cruel, or have dangerous results.
There are always going to be folks who misunderstand and misuse a philosophy. And that goes for all philosophies when it comes to creating anti-social and dangerous dogs.

Sometimes the danger is to the dog, sometimes it's other pets, sometimes it's the child who gets bitten in the face due to owner and/or trainer denial, and sometimes the dog ends up dead.

There are also some people who shouldn't even own dogs, or certain breeds of dogs, etc...but then we get into trying to control the choices of others, which I am against.

Education and rational discussion is preferable. :)
 
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Dekka

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#31
Ok so you take a calm dog and walk it with another. What if you dont' have a calm dog to walk it with? What if the other dog get more anxious and THAT transfers to the calm dog (I have a great story of a horse becoming afraid of carrots)

Why not simply work with the dog to overcome his/her fears in a simpler way? Not saying that won't work, I am sure it can. But why risk the other dog? I am personally not a fan of risking one animal to help another. But I am a huge fan of dogs teaching puppies how to be dogs.

I don't get what rational discussion comment is about :confused: Take someone like Monty Roberts. He got famous using techniques he 'learned from horses' He goes on about how he is talking 'eques' to horses. Many people have been hurt after they get horses back from him. They aren't trained. There are loads of examples with him. Basic training is FAR more effective and safe. I am speaking about professionals who try to talk the 'animal's own language' back at it. I am not talking about people who shouldnt' own animals.

I am asking why is it relevant? Its nice to know. (knowledge is fun) But I have yet to see a useful application of social learning that isn't unnecessarily complicated. Many things that are sometimes attributed to social learning can also be more simply explained by OC.
 

Angelique

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#32
Ok so you take a calm dog and walk it with another. What if you dont' have a calm dog to walk it with? What if the other dog get more anxious and THAT transfers to the calm dog (I have a great story of a horse becoming afraid of carrots)
Yes, Social Learning works both ways. In nature it keeps animals safe from danger.

Why not simply work with the dog to overcome his/her fears in a simpler way? Not saying that won't work, I am sure it can. But why risk the other dog? I am personally not a fan of risking one animal to help another. But I am a huge fan of dogs teaching puppies how to be dogs.
Personal choice in philosophies. And, it is important not to get into a situation one personally can't handle.

I don't get what rational discussion comment is about :confused: Take someone like Monty Roberts. He got famous using techniques he 'learned from horses' He goes on about how he is talking 'eques' to horses. Many people have been hurt after they get horses back from him. They aren't trained. There are loads of examples with him. Basic training is FAR more effective and safe. I am speaking about professionals who try to talk the 'animal's own language' back at it. I am not talking about people who shouldnt' own animals.
Monty Roberts wasn't all he was cracked up to be if you do some research. I understand there are other folks who do use a similar social philosophy as Roberts did, but with better results. But I'm kinda out of the "horse loop" these days.

I am asking why is it relevant? Its nice to know. (knowledge is fun) But I have yet to see a useful application of social learning that isn't unnecessarily complicated. Many things that are sometimes attributed to social learning can also be more simply explained by OC.
Again, I guess it's relevance is based upon personal choice, what we understand and feel comfortable with.
 

Dekka

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#33
I know monty wasn't all he was cracked up to be.. that is why I used him. The other people don't couch it in terms of trying to talk horse to horses. Its basically all OC. That was my point. Their stuff works, his doesn't. They were using OC he was trying to use social learning (and general crapola)

Yes but you still haven't explained. Why chose a more complicated path? What is YOUR reasoning?

Just because something can be done it should be done sort of thing?
 

Angelique

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#34
Yes but you still haven't explained. Why chose a more complicated path? What is YOUR reasoning?
Because for some folks, it's very simple, natural and uncomplicated.

Just because something can be done it should be done sort of thing?
No, just because somone finds a philosophy helpful, natural and easy to understand, and can use it effectively, why shouldn't they?

Seems to me the proof of whatever combination of philosophies someone is using is in the behavior of the dog, the satisfaction of the owners, and a society which is safe with that dog in it. ;)
 

Angelique

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#35
So I've seen "social learning" in a dog. Tyr learned how to play with Ares by watching and imitating Ares and Morgan with each other. Tyr learned how to roll by watching Ares and Morgan. Tyr improved his heeling and retrieves by watching Ares. Tyr learned to swipe a paw playfully across Ares' muzzle by imitating Ares after Ares did that to Tyr.

All the dogs I've worked with over the years, Tyr is the only one I've seen who is capable of learning by observation and imitation. That doesn't make for a very useful tool as a dog trainer. Also, Tyr will attempt a behavior because he learned it by watching and mimicking, but he won't repeat it if it isn't reinforced or if it is punished. Tyr watched the corgis play with each other and then mimicked them. He was rewarded by their interaction of him and by Ares' acceptance of him. He learned how to roll, which he rarely does - it's not sufficiently self rewarding for him to perform this behavior and I have done nothing to encourage it. Tyr watched Ares heel and retrieve, and his positioning was much improved, his holding of the dumbbell was better. But after Tyr learned it by watching, I rewarded Tyr for doing it. When Tyr attempted to copy the swiping of a paw across Ares' muzzle, Ares snarled, which is a punisher to Tyr and the behavior hasn't been seen since.

However, even Tyr doesn't learn by watching another dog receive punishment. Tyr will attempt the same misbehaviors and receive the punishers himself.

Social learning on it's own doesn't work. It still needs OC in order for a learned behavior to stick. I can copy behaviors all day, but if they're not rewarding, I'm not going to repeat them.
Maybe Tyr doesn't view a social correction to another dog as being relevant to him. What happened? :confused:

Nick is a great social learner. I shouldn't have let him play with his buddy a boxer, when he was little. Stuart taught him to really use his paws!

Tia learned to walk on logs by following me at the beach, and Nick learned from her. They're both great climbers.

During trick training, Nick learned quickly by watching Tia.

Some dogs, like some people, are just smarter or have better social skills.

It's probably a nature/nurture thing. When I used to train people for a corporation, we got some folks who were technically proficient at learning and performing tasks, and others with really good social skills. Often the two didn't overlap very well, LOL. But if we got someone in with really rotten (or no) social skills, gossipy, back-stabbing, clique-ish, or just plain socially retarded (regardless of their technical skills), they would cause a ripple effect throughout their work group and a lot of disruption if they weren't removed.

Good point about a socially learned behavior extinguishing on it's own without reinforcement. That is refered to in some of the articles.
 

Dekka

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#36
Ok but how is it simpler? It takes more words and more effort. So in what way is it simpler?

You have championed CM (for example) he claims to be talking dogs to dogs. Do you like what he does? For you is what he does simpler and more natural to you than say what OC type people do? (using him as an example because I have watched him work with dogs and I have not watched you work with dogs)

Do you have any vids of you working with dogs or of any of your dogs?
 

Angelique

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#37
Ok but how is it simpler? It takes more words and more effort. So in what way is it simpler?

You have championed CM (for example) he claims to be talking dogs to dogs. Do you like what he does? For you is what he does simpler and more natural to you than say what OC type people do? (using him as an example because I have watched him work with dogs and I have not watched you work with dogs)

Do you have any vids of you working with dogs or of any of your dogs?
No vids. No vid camera. And a really crappy old computer with almost no memory. Maybe someday...:(

As far as Cesar goes, I like his basic philosophies. I like how he understands and starts with how the humans are behaving around their dogs, seeing to it the dog's needs are fulfilled, that he doesn't give up on dogs, that he can supervise 40+ dogs at a time, working at getting people to behave like leaders so they are seen as leadership material, pitting the needs of their dogs first, etc...it's my personal choice. I also like a lot of other people like Suzanne Clothier, Stanley Coren, Bruce Fogle, and Myrna Milani because they are also interested in how dogs think and communicate.

I'm sorry Dekka, but yes, this is easier to me because it's natural to me. I've been interacting with dogs and other animals since I was a kid. I always find it a little strange that everyone else doesn't feel connected to dogs in this manner.

Maybe because I added in an understanding of OC and CC after the fact rather than starting there, also makes a difference. But I do use all three areas.

If a strictly OC/CC perspective is easier for you and your happy with how it works in your personal life with your dogs, I'm not trying to take that away from you.

Maybe it's like I mentioned in another post regarding personal aptitudes and skills...we all have our own gifts.

:)
 

lizzybeth727

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#38
Angelique, I'm very curious.... do you train dogs professionally? What formal training have you had as far as dog training or behaviorism in general?

You don't have to answer if you don't want to, of course, but I think it would help us understand where you're coming from if we knew this.
 

Dekka

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#39
Oh I feel VERY connected to my dog. And I do agree how people act matters. But you can act how ever you want if you train your dog it won't matter (with in reason)

I also don't want to ever shut my dogs down. Do you feel that shutting dogs down is an essential part of social learning with canines? Maybe this is my biggest issue with people who promote social learning... I see a whole pile of stressed dogs (and am not sure if this is a product of the people using it.. or the method). I want my dogs to be great dogs with good manners and be well trained. But not at the expense of their freedom of expression.
 

Angelique

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#40
Angelique, I'm very curious.... do you train dogs professionally? What formal training have you had as far as dog training or behaviorism in general?

You don't have to answer if you don't want to, of course, but I think it would help us understand where you're coming from if we knew this.
Oh, it's okay. I've answered this before...several times. :)

I don't train dogs professionally. I trained people professionally for years. I've studied with a couple of folks over the years, including one very crusty old Koehler guy 30 years ago. I'm just not interested in hanging around most dog trainers either. To political and clique-ish. I've met some great folks online though.

My only interest these days is in educating owners so they can live in harmony with their dogs. I do in-home evaluations and handling skill sessions. In the summer I usually do a dog walking group so people can practice. I also do pet-sitting and dog walking if the owner is already a client and wants to keep their dog on track.

I am word of mouth only except for a number in the phone book. If somone calls wanting to take a puppy class, obedience, agility, or learn to show a dog, I refer them to a trainer.

So, I guess I'm just a canine/human social worker. :lol-sign:
 

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