So Upset! Dog killed other dog.

[adojrts]

Doberluv, I am trying to picture the event in my head so I can answer your question about which way the smaller dog was running, but it's all kindof a blur. There was no growling or barking or freezing or anything that I would normally take for a sign of aggression, it didn't escalate from them meeting into a fight. It was pretty much my dog saw the dog, grabbed it, shook it around and it was over in less than a minute. (Though the dog was yelping and still alive at the time we left.)

It wouldn't surprise me if it were fear, or prey drive, he has a lot of both. Since he's got cataracts he is especially anxious in a lot of situations. He also enjoys chasing squirrels and balls when he can find them.

He is has always been fine with dogs bigger than cats, he's also fine with cats. (We have two, he is currently curled up next to one on the floor.) He's gone to daycare for 2 years and this is the first incident of aggression. Obviously all of that will have to change now, and I don't really know what we'll do since he's got separation anxiety.

I am afraid that the county is going to try to take him away and euthanize him. Though I think it takes more than one incident for a dog to be labeled dangerous, especially when it is a dog on dog issue. It is kindof hard to accept that even though he did something so horrible I still love him a lot. Ultimately I don't think he knows what he did, I don't think he saw that little dog as a dog, just a little furry thing. I am glad that we adopted him from a rescue and were at least able to give him a couple years with a loving family but it is hard, we'll never really know why he has scars all over his face and why he has all these issues that he has.

I just feel so bad for that poor little dog and his owner, I will never forget him. And I can't blame anyone but myself for this, as much as he's been okay in the past I know that's not necessarily a predictor of the future.

The cataracts could certainly be a valid reason, imo.

I know what you mean about him not even connecting that it was a dog. This past summer I was competing at the AAC (Agility) Nationals with my Jrt. We were waiting to go into the ring and this little girl started running around with a tiny little dog (puppy?) on leash, racing it. My dog's prey drives kicked in, in a heartbeat, luckily he was on leash and I was fast enough to tighten the slip leash so he couldn't pull out of it. I KNOW, he would have raced over and killed that little dog and he wouldn't haven figured out it was a dog until it was over.

 

[elegy]

But the dog was put in a position it should never be put in...again the WHOLE situation needs to be brought to light.

i absolutely agree this dog was put in a position he never should have been in, but at the same time, hindsight tends to be 20/20. it may not have been as easy to discern that from where the owner was standing before this happened.

 

[Doberluv]

But it has been brought to light and by the owner of the dog. The OP said that, the dog had improved and they thought it was ok, that anytime a small dog entered the DP they got their dog, put it on leash and left. And this time, they didn't see the little dog fast enough and they were going to their dog when it was rushed...........

As Carrie pointed out, the dog in question didn't go after the small dog but was rushed by the small dog.........big difference imo.

This OP, has not once defended or justified what their dog did, they are taking full responsiblity.

It sounds like the OP, has managed their dog to prevent a problem, they also stated they never thought their dog would ever kill another dog. All of us have had a *close* call with our dogs, either by their prey drives kicking in, aggression or having it happen to our dogs. And we all know people who don't take responsiblity or justify what their dog has done in some form or another.

I hope nobody beats up the OP about this, because I think they are doing that very well to themselves'.....

Ditto the whole post and especially that bolded part. There could be no greater punishment than what she is already getting from herself.

I just hope you won't beat yourself up for too long Cessena. Sh!t happens sometimes and you just can't let it destroy you.

I sure hope the county doesn't take him away. Those cataracts could have distorted the picture your dog got of the little dog and made him look even more like a small rodent or other furry. Who knows?

I don't know what you can do about the day care. Is he in there with little dogs normally? That's going to take some serious planning. For his separation anxiety, have you read any good books on the subject? There are quite a few that will describe and teach you a systematic desensatizing plan to go through with him. This is a big hurdle to get over, but you will. And then you can move on and start planning what you can do for him next. (((hugs)))

 

[Juicy]

I know dogs that are senior dogs go into the small dog section, because the big dog section is full of rowdy dogs and fights break out 70% of the time over there. I do however enter through the big dog section to get to the small dog section, because I have four dogs on leashes and I rather just let them loose asap, instead of walking all the way to the small dog gate.

 

[JennSLK]

I didnt read all the pages but...

I owned a doberman who was occasionaly DA. Some dogs she liked some not. Size didnt matter. She had never been agressive outside, but I would NEVER take to a off leash park.

I dont mean to sound rude but IMHO it was your fault. You brought a dog to a park when you knew the dog had issues. I feal terrible for the owners of the small dog. I dont know the laws in your area, but I hope your dog is not deamed dangerous now.

I know you have learnt from this situation and I dont think you will let it happen again. I do commend you for paying the bills though. You made a mistake and you are learning from it and faceing the coniquinces (sp?)

 

[Bailey08]

Doberluv, I am trying to picture the event in my head so I can answer your question about which way the smaller dog was running, but it's all kindof a blur. There was no growling or barking or freezing or anything that I would normally take for a sign of aggression, it didn't escalate from them meeting into a fight. It was pretty much my dog saw the dog, grabbed it, shook it around and it was over in less than a minute. (Though the dog was yelping and still alive at the time we left.)

It wouldn't surprise me if it were fear, or prey drive, he has a lot of both. Since he's got cataracts he is especially anxious in a lot of situations. He also enjoys chasing squirrels and balls when he can find them.

He is has always been fine with dogs bigger than cats, he's also fine with cats. (We have two, he is currently curled up next to one on the floor.) He's gone to daycare for 2 years and this is the first incident of aggression. Obviously all of that will have to change now, and I don't really know what we'll do since he's got separation anxiety.

I am afraid that the county is going to try to take him away and euthanize him. Though I think it takes more than one incident for a dog to be labeled dangerous, especially when it is a dog on dog issue. It is kindof hard to accept that even though he did something so horrible I still love him a lot. Ultimately I don't think he knows what he did, I don't think he saw that little dog as a dog, just a little furry thing. I am glad that we adopted him from a rescue and were at least able to give him a couple years with a loving family but it is hard, we'll never really know why he has scars all over his face and why he has all these issues that he has.

I just feel so bad for that poor little dog and his owner, I will never forget him. And I can't blame anyone but myself for this, as much as he's been okay in the past I know that's not necessarily a predictor of the future.

Please work on getting through this -- own what happened, apologize to the other owner, and move on. As I said earlier, guilt does no good. This was a mistake. We've all made them and, as elegy said, hindsight is 20/20.

You're right that your dog doesn't "understand" -- he's a dog and he did what came naturally to him. He can and will still be a wonderful companion to you and your family, and I am also glad that you adopted him and gave him a chance with a loving family.

As an aside, I would supervise him with the cats, just in case.

 

[CaliTerp07]

Oh gosh, you poor thing

It sounds like your heart is in the right place. I hope you are able to forgive yourself quickly...we're always our own harshest critics.

 

[Taqroy]

I'm so sorry for you...it really sucks that this happened. I really admire you for owning up to it and doing what you can to make it better.

And really for the people saying that it's her fault...she knows that and she admitted it in the very first post. Please stop harping on it.

 

[~Jessie~]

I didnt read all the pages but...

I owned a doberman who was occasionaly DA. Some dogs she liked some not. Size didnt matter. She had never been agressive outside, but I would NEVER take to a off leash park.

I dont mean to sound rude but IMHO it was your fault. You brought a dog to a park when you knew the dog had issues. I feal terrible for the owners of the small dog. I dont know the laws in your area, but I hope your dog is not deamed dangerous now.

I know you have learnt from this situation and I dont think you will let it happen again. I do commend you for paying the bills though. You made a mistake and you are learning from it and faceing the coniquinces (sp?)

I agree with this.

 

[Brandyb]

I didnt read all the pages but...

I owned a doberman who was occasionaly DA. Some dogs she liked some not. Size didnt matter. She had never been agressive outside, but I would NEVER take to a off leash park.

I dont mean to sound rude but IMHO it was your fault. You brought a dog to a park when you knew the dog had issues. I feal terrible for the owners of the small dog. I dont know the laws in your area, but I hope your dog is not deamed dangerous now.

I know you have learnt from this situation and I dont think you will let it happen again. I do commend you for paying the bills though. You made a mistake and you are learning from it and faceing the coniquinces (sp?)

I agree with this too. I'm very sorry for your situation, and glad you've owned up and are taking responsibility. That being said, this whole thread is why I NEVER take my guys (large or small) to the dog park.

 

[Lolas Dad]

I know dogs that are senior dogs go into the small dog section, because the big dog section is full of rowdy dogs and fights break out 70% of the time over there. I do however enter through the big dog section to get to the small dog section, because I have four dogs on leashes and I rather just let them loose asap, instead of walking all the way to the small dog gate.

Our dog parks have a double gate. The area you first walk in you let your dog off leash. The second gate is to the actual dog park itself. It has two inner gates.One is for the large dog park area that is for dogs of any size and shape and the other smaller side is for any dog that is 35 pounds or under. I have seen people have small dogs in the large area and I have seen a greyhound go after a Dachshund one time and shook the dog. At the time I was in the 35 pound and under section. The Dachshund and Grey Hound were in the larger all size dog area. Some people do not think about there dog being small in the large area and sometimes people do not bother to spend a few minutes checking out the dogs that are in the dog park and how they are behaving. They just walk right in.

Then you have some people who bring their dog into an off leash dog park and are walking them on leash. That is one of the worse things someone can do because that dog that is on a leash can become protective and show aggression. When people do this I make it a point to let them know that it is the wrong thing to do and that they should take the leash off right away.

After they have taken the leash off the dog they see the difference in the dog's behavior in a positive way. There have been some who said they can't take their dog off the leash and I have asked them to take their dog out of the off leash area and if you want to keep your dog on leash then walk the dog outside the fence. This way the dog can get socialized to the other dogs in a safe manner and everyone has so far taken my suggestion except for one person who argued with me on it and started dropping the F bomb. She was on the small side with 5 dogs and the limit is two of which one was a lab, two were shar pei weighing around 60 pounds a small mutt that she had on leash and some other mid sized dog. There were people that were afraid to come into the dog park with those dogs their and were waiting outside the first gate. Being she refused to take her dog off leash, she had dogs that were over the weight limit on the small side, none of the dogs had tags so there was no knowledge of them being up to date on the rabies shots. She was removed by the park rangers after I called them.

TO THE OP:I'm sorry that this situation happened to you and I am glad to see that your being responsible in having the medical bills paid but should also warn you that they might want you to also replace the dog at least monetarily. If you paid all the medical bills for the dog and that was all you paid, if they were to go to court they would probably get the monetary value of the dog as well. Also your dog they could classify as being aggressive and they could ask that it be put down. So If I were you I would not only pay for their medical bills but also what it would cost to replace the dog and then hope that they do not want to take further action. You may also want to seek an attorney so that if they do want to settle the matter he can make a legally binding contract with them.

I'm not trying to make you feel any worse than you are already feeling because accidents do happen and in a situation like that even though they may have had the right to have their dog on the side that they did they should have thought about it before bringing him in on that side.

Perhaps there was no one on the small side for their dog to play with but that is still no excuse for them to have their dog on that side to begin with even though they might have been able to. There are many times that Lola and I are on the small side by ourselves and if a person with a small dog is coming in the dog park they would 99% of the time go to the small side because there is at least one other dog their.

 

[Bailey08]

TO THE OP:I'm sorry that this situation happened to you and I am glad to see that your being responsible in having the medical bills paid but should also warn you that they might want you to also replace the dog at least monetarily. If you paid all the medical bills for the dog and that was all you paid, if they were to go to court they would probably get the monetary value of the dog as well. Also your dog they could classify as being aggressive and they could ask that it be put down. So If I were you I would not only pay for their medical bills but also what it would cost to replace the dog and then hope that they do not want to take further action. You may also want to seek an attorney so that if they do want to settle the matter he can make a legally binding contract with them.

This is a different situation than her dog running down the street and attacking a properly contained dog in its own yard. The other owner assumed a certain risk of bringing his/her dog to the DP (as do we all), and had the option of bringing his/her dog into the small dog side. In any event, even if a court decided entirely in the favor of the other owner, the most the that owner will get if he/she sued is the cost of the dog. I'm not sure why you'd offer that up in advance just in case (unless the OP wants to be a "good guy").

I sure would hope that this dog wouldn't be classified by the city as aggressive, but unfortunately don't know much about that.

 

[PoodleMommy]

This is a different situation than her dog running down the street and attacking a properly contained dog in its own yard. The other owner assumed a certain risk of bringing his/her dog to the DP (as do we all), and had the option of bringing his/her dog into the small dog side.

I agree we all take risks when we bring our dogs to the dog park and if for instance this dog had been chasing the other dog, knocked it over, and accidentally broke its back or something... I would feel differently BUT there is an expectation that the other dogs at the dog park are FRIENDLY and well behaved and at least trained in the basics or the dog park isnt for them. I do not expect to encounter dogs in the dog park who have displayed any signs of "issues" before and honestly bringing a dog with limited vision to a dog park is ASKING for trouble... hindsight may be 20/20 (dont remember who said that) but common sense is something we all need to exercise before letting our dogs off leash in public in order to be fair to everyone around us.

 

[ACooper]

I agree we all take risks when we bring our dogs to the dog park and if for instance this dog had been chasing the other dog, knocked it over, and accidentally broke its back or something... I would feel differently BUT there is an expectation that the other dogs at the dog park are FRIENDLY and well behaved and at least trained in the basics or the dog park isnt for them. I do not expect to encounter dogs in the dog park who have displayed any signs of "issues" before and honestly bringing a dog with limited vision to a dog park is ASKING for trouble... hindsight may be 20/20 (dont remember who said that) but common sense is something we all need to exercise before letting our dogs off leash in public in order to be fair to everyone around us.

Anyone who takes their dog to a dog park is taking a risk. Not just the risk of a "freak accident" like getting a broken back from rough play. There is ALWAYS a risk that a dog who has never acted out or shown a problem is going to have their FIRST problem THAT DAY.

It could be a certain dog triggers it. Honestly, some small dogs are quite aggressive and that little dog who "ran up" to the OP's dog could have been intending more than play...........dogs can read each other better than we cn read them. I am not saying that IS the case, I am just pointing out it could be the case.

I know Orson has been accosted by a tiny toy poodle on our walk. This dog came flying with teeth bared and he couldn't have been more than 5 lbs and up to Orson's "knee" Different situation of course since Orson was leashed and that dog was obviously loose.......but still, that dog MEANT to do harm if he could have.

But point being, ANYONE........large dog owners and small dog owners alike DO take a risk when going to a dog park. You have no idea what type of dogs or owners are going to be there, it's that simple.

 

[PoodleMommy]

But point being, ANYONE........large dog owners and small dog owners alike DO take a risk when going to a dog park. You have no idea what type of dogs or owners are going to be there, it's that simple.

I said that... you are taking a risk.

But that doesnt mean people who take dogs with known problems get a free pass when something happens that is their fault.

 

[ACooper]

I said that... you are taking a risk.

But that doesnt mean people who take dogs with known problems get a free pass when something happens that is their fault.

Nobody said they should.

The OP feels horrible. She wants to pay all expenses to the other owner. She KNOWS she made a mistake, she said so herself. She is never going to take the dog BACK to a dog park again, she isn't trying to defend what her dog did or HER responsibility in any of this..........lesson learned.

So what exactly would you have her do? I mean so you don't feel she got a free pass. I am confused on your repeated posts of nearly the same thing, I just want to understand what it is you trying to get through to us because I don't. <no sarcasm meant>

 

[PoodleMommy]

Nobody said they should.

The OP feels horrible. She wants to pay all expenses to the other owner. She KNOWS she made a mistake, she said so herself. She is never going to take the dog BACK to a dog park again, she isn't trying to defend what her dog did or HER responsibility in any of this..........lesson learned.

So what exactly would you have her do? I mean so you don't feel she got a free pass. I am confused on your repeated posts of nearly the same thing, I just want to understand what it is you trying to get through to us because I don't. <no sarcasm meant>

I only responded again because you quoted my post... there is no "repeated posts of nearly the same thing"... its simple, dont quote someones post and single out the things they say, if you dont want them to respond.

everyone keeps acting like this was the first time and this dog just unknowingly snapped.

There are numerous statements in the OP's posts that indicate that this has been an ONGOING issue that they were well aware of, plus there are untreated health issues that are known to aggravate and/or cause aggression issues on their own. Saying you wont go back is great, giving the person money is fine, but the fact is someone out there is mourning their dog when a very small amount of common sense would have prevented it.

I guarantee that if this dog had attacked and killed a lab/pit/golden the responses would be very different.

 

[DanL]

This is a sad situation, but I think the responsibility is a 2 way street. Small dog on the big side- no way. Dog of any size that has had DA issues before- never in a dog park, period.

I would never take Gunnar to a dog park. I know how he is with strange dogs and dogs that get in his space. There would be bodies flying all around. I know this, and I avoid it. He's fine with dogs that are close to him that are calm and keep their distance. I can talk him down the street and talk to someone who has a dog on lead and he's fine. But a dog that wants to get in his face and play, he will quickly let them know he's not about that at all.

I have taken Daisy before. She's very mellow around other dogs and is very friendly, but she's also big enough that if a dog decided to take her on, she wouldn't be in as much danger as a small dog would be.

 

[ACooper]

I only responded again because you quoted my post... there is no "repeated posts of nearly the same thing"... its simple, dont quote someones post and single out the things they say, if you dont want them to respond.

everyone keeps acting like this was the first time and this dog just unknowingly snapped.

There are numerous statements in the OP's posts that indicate that this has been an ONGOING issue that they were well aware of, plus there are untreated health issues that are known to aggravate and/or cause aggression issues on their own. Saying you wont go back is great, giving the person money is fine, but the fact is someone out there is mourning their dog when a very small amount of common sense would have prevented it.

I guarantee that if this dog had attacked and killed a lab/pit/golden the responses would be very different.

Oh I wasn't just talking about your most recent post.........I am talking all through the thread.

And still you didn't say what she should do to "make up for it" and not get that "free pass" you are talking about. Night in jail? Public flogging? or maybe gas chamber? I really was serious when I asked what you would have her do. She CAN'T go back and prevent.........so why keep pounding it?
WHAT DO YOU WANT HER TO DO?

And WOW.........you think people are just "taking it easy" on her because it was a small dog? *shakes head*

 

[Lolas Dad]

On saturday I had my dog at the dog park, and he attacked a little toy dog. I have had issues with him and small dogs in the past, but nothing to this extent. Usually he just looks WAY too interested. But this time he ran over and pinned the dog to the ground, shook him around and everything before I could get to him. I just found out today that the little dog died of its injuries.



We obviously wont be going back to the dog park since people don't keep their small dogs in the small dog area and I can't control him once his prey drive kicks in.

This is a different situation than her dog running down the street and attacking a properly contained dog in its own yard. The other owner assumed a certain risk of bringing his/her dog to the DP (as do we all), and had the option of bringing his/her dog into the small dog side. In any event, even if a court decided entirely in the favor of the other owner, the most the that owner will get if he/she sued is the cost of the dog. I'm not sure why you'd offer that up in advance just in case (unless the OP wants to be a "good guy").

I sure would hope that this dog wouldn't be classified by the city as aggressive, but unfortunately don't know much about that.

The reason for possibly offering it up in the first place is to avoid any court deeming the dog to be aggressive and put down. According to the OP as quoted above there was a problem with this dog having a prey drive for small dogs in the past. The OP also stated that they can't control the dog once the prey drive kicks in.

Perhaps this dog should not have been in the dog park in the first place. Not all dogs are suited to be brought into a dog park. Example below in bold

Appropriate dog behavior
Not all dogs are good candidates for dog-park play. A dog park is not the appropriate place for dogs who have serious behavior problems in relation to other dogs or humans. Dogs with these kinds of “issues†should be carefully socialized in environments that are far more controlled than a dog park while their owners do behavior modification work. Consider the following carefully before taking your dog through the gate into your local dog park.

• Dog-park dogs should be friendly and outgoing, without being overbearing, obnoxious, or bullying.

• Your dog should be reasonably confident and social. Those who are fearful, aggressive, or reactive are not appropriate for dog parks.

• Basic good manners are a park prerequisite. Your dog should not body-slam, mouth, jump on kids, or mark (leg-lift) humans in the park, nor should he jump into laps of random sitting humans without invitation.

• Your dog should be responsive to basic cues – at least “come when called,†“sit,†and “leave it/off,†so you can get control of him if necessary, and prevent him from harassing others.

• Barking should be kept to a reasonable level, both for the comfort of other park users as well as nearby neighbors. Occasional barks of joy are acceptable. Non-stop barking of a “fun police†type dog is not, nor is barking with more serious aggressive intent.

• Only healthy dogs should visit dog parks. Obviously, communicable diseases and parasites are unacceptable as these can affect and infect other dogs. Structural un-soundness that can cause pain (hip dysphasia, arthritis, etc.) are a high risk factor for causing aggression when a dog is hurt or stressed by the anticipation of being hurt.

Whole Dog Journal: Dog Park Etiquette

My dog has never bitten another dog or a person. That is not saying that she won't. The same thing with the OP saying about their dog's prey drive "Usually he just looks WAY too interested. " So the OP knew there was a problem in the past.

I will say it again. If the owner with the small dog had the right to bring their dog in the large dog area then they took a chance and it is not something I would have done but they are legally not responsible not even by 1% in my opinion. Therefore legally and I am not an attorney just giving my opinion the small dog owners bear no responsibility.

If this does go to court and I really hope it does not come down to that I would be interested in knowing the judges ruling.