So the vet wants me to switch foods

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#1
Darby has had chonic UTI's, high white counts and bacteria, and a high PH. The vet suggested trying a different food due to the PH. (Darby has been on Natural Balance since she was 8 weeks.) He didn't suggest any particular one, but just said another high-quality adult food. (Darby is 9 months)

I went to the food shop and mentioned to the owner that Darby has always had soft stools. He claimed that higher-fat foods can cause this and suggested one with a lower fat content, specifically, Solid Gold Hund-N-Flocken.

So, what do you think about (a) the guy's idea about a lower fat content, and (b) this food in particular? Darby is still a puppy I guess. Should she be on a lower-fat food?
 

corgipower

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#2
i had two males get very bad UTI's while on natural balance. according to my vet, it's less common for males to get UTI's that severe, and in her opinion it was food related.

i haven't had any UTI's since i stopped feeding it. high fat foods can cause soft stools and digestion problems, but there are other causes for it as well.

i don't really know if a low-fat food is what your dog needs, but i'm not in love with hund-n-flocken for a growing pup. what breed is she?
 
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#3
i had two males get very bad UTI's while on natural balance. according to my vet, it's less common for males to get UTI's that severe, and in her opinion it was food related.

i haven't had any UTI's since i stopped feeding it. high fat foods can cause soft stools and digestion problems, but there are other causes for it as well.

i don't really know if a low-fat food is what your dog needs, but i'm not in love with hund-n-flocken for a growing pup. what breed is she?
She's a Wheaten Terrier. Interesting that you mention UTI's with Natural Balance. Maybe a switch will indeed help. I was skeptical.

I'm not sure if I should call the hund-n-flocken a "low-fat" food so much as lower fat than Natural Balance. The natural balance is 13% and the Hund-N-Flocken is 10%. Does that seem too low for a 9 month old? By the way, the vet was very specific that she eat an adult formula and not a puppy formula.
 

corgipower

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#4
IMO it is too low fat for a pup. but it's been a while since i looked at my nutrition notes, so i can't be positive on it.

i have known a few wheatens that tend to get soft stool.

i have had good results feeding nature's variety prairie and before that i fed canidae which also had good results.
 

Julie

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#5
Hi, I always mention this when I see someone mention UTI's in a female.

Inverted vulva or juvenile vulva. It is where vulva has folds of skin and sits in deeper than normal.. bacteria collects and causes UTI's.

I am not saying this is your dogs problem, but it is helpful to be aware if this problem does exist.

An easy way to tell is grab the few hairs that come out of the vulva and pull... you could see the vulva pop out more from beneath folds of skin and when you let loose it would retract.

Just for info... if a dog has an inverted or juvenile vulva alot of the times it will correct itself after going thru a first heat, that is why you should not spay such a dog until after the first heat. Until then wipe after urinating etc with a hypoallergenic baby wipe.

Sometimes this condition can be missed by a vet especially dogs with longer hair.

Is your dog spayed? Has she went thru a first heat?

Anyway just thought I would mention that. Good luck and I hope you find a solution. :)
 
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#6
An easy way to tell is grab the few hairs that come out of the vulva and pull... you could see the vulva pop out more from beneath folds of skin and when you let loose it would retract.

Is your dog spayed? Has she went thru a first heat?
Ha Ha. That seems like something I'm not going to do. ;-) I'll mention it to the vet though when I go back in 3 weeks. Yes she's spayed, and never went into heat.

She's also had crystals in her urine. She had an x-ray today and her bladder and kidneys showed nothing out of the ordinary. There were a couple of other possibilities he's considering, polyps of some sort or possibly a developmental issue where her urethra isn't quite lined up properly with the bladder...or something like that. Not sure what that's called.

But he wants to try the diet change first before testing for those things, especially given today's high PH (9).
 

Herschel

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#7
I don't particularly care for Natural Balance and I've heard of people having problems with UTIs while feeding it.

Solid Gold makes great foods and Hund'N'Flocken is no different. I don't know if the fat content has anything to do with it, but I've never had a problem with Canidae and it has 14.5%. 10% sounds kind of low and if you feed that, you might want to supplement with salmon oil to maintain her coat.

There are plenty of great high quality adult foods available. I think switching sounds like a good choice.
 

showpug

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#8
Natural Balance doesn't have a formula on the planet that is high in fat! lol! All their formulas are low in fat IMO.

My sister's dog just went through rigorous treatment for a serious UTI and was eating Natural Balance. Seems to be a trend...

If your dog has had trouble with soft stool, I would recommend you try Canidae. It's notorious for being highly digestible and creating firm stools.

I would be less worried about fat content in food and more concerned with finding a formula that works with your dog, overall.

Hundenflocken is too low in protein IMO.
 

Chewbecca

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#9
Whatever you feed, add water to it.

I don't know which NB formula you were feeding, but if it was fish or duck, I cannot imagine the ash content being too high.
But you never know.

I always add water to Ella's food. Well, not always if I'm feeding a low ash food. But it's just good practice to get into the habit.
I just know that feeding foods high in ash has been linked to UTIs.
I would suggest a raw diet, but that takes a lot of research to do it properly.


I had a canine nutritionist inform me of ash content. It's supposedly not the new school of thought, but she made it VERY clear that it IS still something people need to be concerned with.
 

sheepjoke

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#10
wellness caused crystals and uti and chronic thirst in one of my baby puppies and switching to adult food(not wellness) fixed it vet tried to tell them it was early renal failure so be aware that food can and does cause urinary and kidney issues. id switch to canidae or natures variety prairie or someting and not a puppy food an adult food. allowing a dog to come in heat once is not a good idea it does not help that is just anectdotal most female puppies have vaginitis as babies and grow out of it heat cycle or no. it is simply and old wifes tale that haveing aheat is better just like having a litter is better before spyaing completely false information.




sheepjoke
 
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#11
More of a problem than ash (yes, that is old school thinking) is high carbs in general. NB is not a low carb food, so, I'm not surprised to hear of so many UTI problems with it. The same for dry Wellness.

I'm going to post some info here - from studies done on dogs, some on cats, however, the same information has been found to be relevant to both cats and dogs.

Hopefully this will show people how much a difference diet can make for these issues.

Study 1:

OBJECTIVE: To identify dietary factors in commercially available canned foods associated with the development of calcium oxalate (CaOx) uroliths in dogs. ANIMALS: 117 dogs with CaOx uroliths and 174 dogs without urinary tract disease. PROCEDURE: Case dogs were those that developed CaOx uroliths submitted to the Minnesota Urolith Center for quantitative analysis between 1990 and 1992 while fed a commercially available canned diet. Control dogs were those without urinary tract disease evaluated at the same veterinary hospital just prior to or immediately after each case dog. A content-validated multiple-choice questionnaire was mailed to each owner of case and control dogs with the permission of the primary care veterinarian. Univariate and multivariate logistic regressions for each dietary component were performed to test the hypothesis that a given factor was associated with CaOx urolith formation. RESULTS: Canned foods with the highest amount of protein, fat, calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, sodium, potassium, chloride, or moisture were associated with a decreased risk of CaOx urolith formation, compared with diets with the lowest amounts. In contrast, canned diets with the highest amount of carbohydrate were associated with an increased risk of CaOx urolith formation. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Feeding canned diets formulated to contain high amounts of protein, fat, calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, sodium, potassium, chloride, and moisture and a low amount of carbohydrate may minimize the risk of CaOx urolith formation in dogs.

Study 2:

OBJECTIVE: To identify factors in dry diets associated with the occurrence of calcium oxalate (CaOx) uroliths in dogs. ANIMALS: 600 dogs with CaOx uroliths and 898 dogs without urinary tract diseases. PROCEDURE: Univariate and multivariate logistic regression were performed. RESULTS: Compared with diets with the highest concentrations of sodium, dry diets with the lowest concentrations of sodium, phosphorus, calcium, chloride, protein, magnesium, or potassium were linearly associated with increased risk of CaOx urolith formation. Significant nonlinear associations between increased occurrence of CaOx uroliths and urine acidifying potential and low moisture content were observed. Significant nonlinear associations between decreased occurrence of CaOx uroliths and carbohydrate and fiber contents were observed. A significant association between the occurrence of CaOx uroliths and dietary fat was not observed. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Results suggest that dry diets formulated to contain high concentrations of protein, calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, sodium, potassium, and chloride may minimize formation of CaOx uroliths. In addition, comparison of risk and protective factors of various diet ingredients fed to dogs with CaOx uroliths suggests that although similar findings were observed in canned and dry formulations, in general, greater risk is associated with dry formulations. However, before these hypotheses about dietary modifications are adopted by food manufacturers, they must be investigated by use of appropriately designed clinical studies of dogs with CaOx urolithiasis.


Study 3:

Evaluation of effects of dietary carbohydrate on formation of struvite crystals in urine and macromineral balance in clinically normal cats

Dr. Masayuki Funaba, PhDAkira Uchiyama, BSKen-ichiro Takahashi, DVMMasahiro Kaneko, BSHiromi Yamamoto, DVMKazuhiko Namikawa, DVM, PhDTsunenori Iriki, PhDYoshikazu Hatano, BSMatanobu Abe, PhD
Laboratory of Nutrition, School of Veterinary Medicine, Azabu University, 1-17-71 Fuchinobe, Sagamihara 229-8501, Japan. (Funaba, Uchiyama, Takahashi, Namikawa, Iriki, Abe); Research and Development Center, Nihon Nosan Kogyo K. K., 5246 Takura, Tsukuba 300-2615, Japan. (Kaneko, Yamamoto, Hatano)
Objective—To evaluate effects of dietary carbohydrate on urine volume; struvite crystal formation; and calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium balance in clinically normal cats.

Animals—21 healthy adult cats (15 sexually intact males and 6 sexually intact females).

Procedure—Diets containing no carbohydrate source (control diet), control plus starch, or control plus fiber were given in a 3 × 3 Latin-square design. The diets were available ad libitum in study 1 (n = 12) and given under restrictions in study 2 (9) to equalize daily intakes of crude protein among the 3 groups. Formation of struvite crystals and balance of calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium were measured.

Results—Urine volume was lower in the starch group and fiber group in study 1, whereas no differences were detected among the groups in study 2. Urinary pH and struvite activity product were higher in the starch group in both studies, and the fiber group also had higher struvite activity product in study 2. In both studies, urinary concentrations of HCl-insoluble sediment were higher in the starch group and fiber group. In the fiber group, a net loss of body calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium was detected in study 2.

Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—Starch and fiber in diets potentially stimulate formation of struvite crystals. Hence, reducing dietary carbohydrate is desirable to prevent struvite urolith formation. In addition, a net loss of body calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium during feeding of the fiber diet suggests that dietary inclusion of insoluble fiber could increase macromineral requirements of cats. (Am J Vet Res 2004;65:138–142)
 
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#12
There is another study, that I cannot locate right now, that found higher carb foods actually leech minerals from the body, requiring them to be flushed through the urinary tract. The higher than normal concentrations being excreted, in addition to the lower urinary output recorded, increased the production and/or risk of crystals.

Just some food for thought.
 
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#13
Thanks to those who have offered info and advice. I've decided to give Canidae a try given that so many speak well of it. With luck moving off the Natural Balance will help with the UTI.
 

Chewbecca

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#14
wow, that's a great amount of helpful info, newfies!:D

Ash content may be an old school thought, but it IS a legit thought and concern.
But not if you add water to the kibble.
 
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#15
Perhaps for dry foods that are higher in carbs, but, I personally don't concern myself with ash content unlesss the foods is of very poor quality.

Now that studies are showing why and how the minerals are in abundance in the urinary tract and forming crystals, and proving it's not the actual content in the food that is the issue, I have far less concern than I once did.

Adding some water to a dry diet is always a good idea, IMO. :D
 

Julie

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#16
wellness caused crystals and uti and chronic thirst in one of my baby puppies and switching to adult food(not wellness) fixed it vet tried to tell them it was early renal failure so be aware that food can and does cause urinary and kidney issues. id switch to canidae or natures variety prairie or someting and not a puppy food an adult food. allowing a dog to come in heat once is not a good idea it does not help that is just anectdotal most female puppies have vaginitis as babies and grow out of it heat cycle or no. it is simply and old wifes tale that haveing aheat is better just like having a litter is better before spyaing completely false information.




sheepjoke
Most female puppies do not have vaginitis as puppies.

If a female has an inverted vulva, and is spayed before the first heat, chances are you will have a dog with lifelong UTIs needing corrective surgery.
If allowed to go thru the first heat many will correct themselves just due to the fact that the vulva swells and pops out more. And alot of the times it will never return to inverted again. This is not false information.... Just ask your vet. ;)

This also is nothing like spaying before a first heat, there is medical reason to wait to spay a pup with an inverted vulva. There is a good chance that corrective surgery will never be needed.
 

sheepjoke

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#17
i am sure inverted vulvas happen but honestly do not know of one case ever in 35 years in dogs so i would be willing to say it is the exception and if a vet did not diagnose it then it is not a good idea to recommend allowing a heat and i have never seen anything but anecdotal evidence that having a heat fixes the issue anyway if there is even an issue and yes vaginitis is SUPER COMMON in bitch puppies much more common than this inverted vulva vaginitis happens all the time and they will get over it with time or with being spayed or having a heat cycle. many 'uti' diagnosis in bitch puppies are actually vaginitis, not uti. you can treat the vaginitis with antibiotics or you can wait it out till spay or heat. symptoms are the same as uti for the most part.



sheepjoke
 
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#19
NB has citric acid; not a good idea to add water to it if you have a large breed dog

Wow. So many rules and so much detail these days. When I was in kindergarten we bought a little beagle/terrier mix puppy from the pet store for $5. (This was about 1966.) We just fed it whatever cheap crap was to be found at the local grocery. So far as I remember, that dog was never sick a day in it's life and lived to be 16 years old.

Things sure have changed.
 

irenafarm

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#20
The cheap crap has changed from when you were a kid. lol

I've heard really good things about Canidae Platinum for dogs with chronic UT problems. I used it on my male dog who was having issues and it worked like a charm, though I had to boost the protein with some added fresh meat because he's a working dog.

I also put warm (not hot) water in all our kibble, as well as adding fish oil (body oil, not cod liver) and vitamin E. I add a little canned or homeade crockpot stew to make the whole thing soupy and yummy. The dogs clean it up and no more UTIs for the pee monster. :)
 

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