Sit Means Sit Dog Training - anyone ever done this?

[adojrts]

Do you know that saying 'It's common sense'? Well it's only common sense if you know at least part of the answer!
And there is a simple reason why so many people told you to stay away from that trainer, we've been there and done that, therefore we have at least part of the answers and one day you will as well.

Funny how your father did the CM and when it didn't work for him he blamed you instead of the method...............

I agree with the others, your boss has no place to make such statements, tell them to mind their own business and if they can't keep things to an in office professional level you can go higher than them to stop them (yep even if they do own the company/store etc). It's called a Labour Board.

Secondly, here are some lovely sites with some articles on cons of CM, print them off and freely hand them out to your boss and your family. Then tell them to mind their own business.

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

http://www.dogviews.com/2006/12/against_cesar_m.html

Now, spell out two things that you would like to have improvement on before Christmas. I am sure we can help you and at the very least get you started in the right direction and you could very well have a very different dog by then given enough dedication on your part.

I checked out the agility website that you provided, I give it and the instructor an absolute THUMBS UP.
You may also want to sign up for a couple of private lessons before Christmas for obedience until you can get into class. Even one private lesson will get you going.

 

[TinyTinaTunaFish]

Wow... I left for my lunch break feeling blah in general and I come back to all of this. I really appreciate all of you. I truly do. I'm glad that I found this forum back when I was living in Canada because you all were my sanity when I was going through the young puppy stage with Juno and losing my mind.

Thank you for the words of encouragement about what my boss said. I'm also definitely going to print out those things on Cesar to show my step-dad.

Two big problems that I have to tackle with her, that would make Christmas run a LOT more smoothly:

1) Darting out the front door if it's left open/teaching a reliable recall - I've had trouble teaching her a reliable come. At home she'll come when I call her if we're in the house. She does not come when we're outside and/or if there are distractions.

2) Pulling on the leash - this is a huge problem and one I've had with her since I first got her. I've tried just stopping until she slackens the leash and then start walking again, but she immediately pulls out to the end of the leash again. Stopping everytime doesn't seem to be working. It just ends up taking an hour for a distance that would be a five to ten minute walk otherwise. I also tried changing direction randomly if she went ahead. That doesn't seem to work either. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. This is only a problem re: Christmas because my step-dad, despite the issues he has with my dog, really enjoyed taking her for walks and jogging while we were up there. I'm sure he'll want to again for Christmas, and he was not happy about her pulling so much. This is also a big problem for me because I end up not walking her as much as I want to because the pulling is too painful to deal with. It's moreso a problem with me because I have nerve damage in my left foot from a car accident a year and a half ago (other driver's fault, not mine; a 16 year old, driving without a license, speeding, and talking on the cellphone slammed into me while I was stopped in traffic), so her pulling so hard causes a great deal of pain to me and exacerbates the problem because it pulls me off balance. =(

Those are the two things that if I could make even the slightest amount of headway on prior to Christmas, would just make me so happy, lol.

I'm going to look into possibly doing at least one private lesson with that place I linked as well before Christmas. It just depends on finances. My sister was short on money this month and I ended up having to cover her share of the rent as well as my own, and that completely decimated me financially. =(

 

[Angelique]

Okay, first off I like Cesar and use similar methods. :yikes:

Secondly, although dog forums are a great place to discuss, debate, and even get some great help in understanding your dog, they can be also be very confusing places for the novice due to the variance in philosophies and what can seem like conflicting information.

It's very easy to criticise a trainer on the net, but we are not there in person. There are some trainers who refer to themselves as "positive reinforcement" trainers who also incorporate a certain amount of the social philosophies (I put Victoria Stilwell into this group), and there are some trainers who primarily use the social philosophies while incorporating "positive reinforcement" based training. These tend to be my favorite groups. But, there is literally everything out there to choose from.

I understand your confusion and frustration.

Personally, I would find someone to help you in person you feel good about and trust. Look for results, and watch out for emotional manipulation or excuses for your dog's behavior over common sense solutions and reasonable progress in the issues you want addressed.

Good luck.

 

[noludoru]

The fact that you are open to learning and to taking advice and questioning things-IMO makes you a fantasic dog owner!!!

Agreed. :hail: Trust me, you're half way to being a good trainer already if you're willing to listen.

Now, spell out two things that you would like to have improvement on before Christmas. I am sure we can help you and at the very least get you started in the right direction and you could very well have a very different dog by then given enough dedication on your part.

Very true. When I came to chaz I didn't know training from a hole in the ground, and while I'm still not a good trainer - not even by a looong shot - my dog and I enjoy it and we've both learned loads of new things. I'm the sort of person who needs hand-on help, so a training class was vital for my learning process, but the good chaz trainers here have helped me so much. I usually don't even have to ask for help - there's so much info in the training forum I just have to search most of the time.

Secondly, although dog forums are a great place to discuss, debate, and even get some great help in understanding your dog, they can be also be very confusing places for the novice due to the variance in philosophies and what can seem like conflicting information.

Personally, I would find someone to help you in person you feel good about and trust. Look for results, and watch out for emotional manipulation or excuses for your dog's behavior over common sense solutions and reasonable progress in the issues you want addressed.

I am also going to :hail: this because it's truly excellent advice. I almost took a class with a trainer I wasn't comfortable with, and I observed one of his classes later when I had begin my training.. honestly, I liked my trainers better. I was comfortable with them and learned a lot more than I think I would have with the other person because of that.

 

[lizzybeth727]

Honestly, I didn't read the link to the training classes you're thinkng of joining, but I trust the others who said it looks good. Just to help, though, here's a good article on what to look for when you're choosing a trainer. It came from www.apdt.com, which is also a good place for a trainer search if you need more options.

Can you tell us again what kind of dog you have - breed, size, gender, spayed/neutered/intact, age, etc.?

 

[Boemy]

Wow . . . if the economy weren't so lousy right now I'd suggest you quit that job and never talk to that lady again! Even with the economy the way it is--it doesn't hurt to look around, right?

 

[adojrts]

Hey, I would like to also address what your boss said about crate training and resces etc. As a former rescue rep. and has a breeder, I wont place a dog with someone who wont crate train. Doesn't mean the dogs live all day in a crate for their life but I also don't have a problem with a dog crated for longer periods.
In short, most shelters/rescues etc recommend crating and many depending on the breed and the dog insist upon it.

Again some links for you to print off and just hand to her, she needs to be educated.

http://www.humanesocietyspca.org/pdf/dogs/Crate Training Your Dog.PDF

http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/o...m/dog_behavior_tip_sheets/crate_training.html

And here is one just from San Diego Humane Society, in case she claims your local one doesn't follow those or encourage crate training.

http://www.sdhumane.org/site/DocServer/BT_K9-Crate_Training.pdf?docID=571

Take your power back, don't let her make you feel the way she does.

 

[ihartgonzo]

Not good!! Stay away far far away. They work on suppression vs training. They have very little understanding of how dogs learn (as seen from their various comments on their websites). IMO you would be better to just burn your money. I wouldn't let them near my dog if they were free!!

The video on the main page really annoys me. They are well known for saying that postive trainers are 'treat dispensers' and that dogs then won't listen if you don't have a cookie on you. (Not true) But then their video shows a dog working in a dog park wearing a shock collar. Umm what is so special about that. It would be like me holding a peanut better smeared liver in front of Kaidens nose the whole time..... How is that proving anything?

I agree. 1000%!!!

I met a "Sit Means Sit" trainer at the dog park, and I was APPAULED by her general attitude about training, as well as the horrible advice she was giving people.

Look for positive reinforcement classes. Check out your local Obedience club. Buy GOOD, positive-based Obedience books. Here are a few links... you could even ask for them for Christmas! ; )

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB745&AffiliateID=45612&Method=3
http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB464&AffiliateID=45612&Method=3
http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB943

1) To stop her from bolting out of the front door, you need to PRACTICE your waits at the front door, every day, as often as possible. When you start, she should be leashed, so that there is no way for her to actually bolt out and get reinforcement from that. Use lots of verbal/physical praise and super tasty treats (hotdogs, soft food rolls, cheese, etc) for waiting for just 1 second at first, then stretch out the time. I recommend making her sit and wait in front of ANY doorway, not just the front door, when you're going both in and out of the door. This is simply boundary training, and once you make it a habit and teach her that she only crosses that boundary when you give her permission, it will become second nature.

2) I use the "be a tree" method. The second the leash is taut, I stop dead in my tracks, and I don't move until the leash is loose again. It took WEEKS of doing this consistently, every time, before Fozzie really caught on... he used to be an intense puller, but now he almost never has to be reminded not to, and I can see him hesitate when the leash is getting taut. It can also help to give her praise and rewards when ever she is anywhere near your side, teaching her that hanging nearby and checking on you is rewarding. Teaching her to heel, if you haven't already, will also help.

If she's pulling intensely toward another dog/person/something that excites her, you need to get her focus and make yourself more exciting to her. Teach her to "watch me", by treating her each time she looks at you. If you practice "watch me" often (around the house, on walks, during commercial breaks, for 5-10 minutes, when ever you can) you will notice that she's MUCH more focused on you and it's much easier to get her attention.

As far as the recall, there is a REALLY great recall sticky at the top of this board. Practice, practice, practice! If she cannot perform a recall anywhere besides the home, you need to practice more in the home, and gradually progress to distractions and different locations.

 

[puppydog]

Some very good advice here. As a person who once trained with harsh correciton methods and is now training PR, let me tell you there is a huge difference. It is amazing watching your dog figure things out and actually learn something as opposed to frantically trying to prevent a correction.
I watch the lights come on in Ben daily and watching him nail the sit has been wonderful. He cannot wait until he can show me how well he does it.

 

[Dekka]

Ihartgonzo has some really good advice.

When teaching clients who's dogs have a history of pulling (we inadvertantly train dogs to pull as puppies) it doesn't take long for the dogs to learn not to pull in class. But for a while I still see the dogs trying to pull the owners to the car, to the ring etc etc. It takes a while for the dog to 'relearn' how to walk on a leash and to generalize that you dont' want pulling anywhere.

The trick is to never reward pulling on the leash. This is harder than it seems. Dog is outside and excited to go for a walk. The dog pulls, and gets rewarded by going for the walk. The dog does not know that she would still get to go on the walk if she doesn't pull. So this means if she pulls you must stop, change directions, walk in circles or back up. (personally I back up)

In the mean time you could get one of those no pull harnesses, or if money is tight.. any harness that has a ring on the chest will work. That way too your Dad can't inadvertently reward her for pulling again and undo what you are working on.

 

[CaliTerp07]

In the mean time you could get one of those no pull harnesses, or if money is tight.. any harness that has a ring on the chest will work. That way too your Dad can't inadvertently reward her for pulling again and undo what you are working on.

Our "gentle leader" harness has been a lifesaver. Lucy pulls so hard she chokes herself, and if we tried to do the tree thing on every walk, she'd never get enough exercise. (I've only got an hour before work in the mornings...so we can either go 100 yards with the tree thing, or a few miles walking/running with the harness). On weekends and after work I try to do more training.

My biggest advice (and let me tell you, I know nothing about dog training, but it's worked for us) is to walk with treats in your pocket. Lucy pays SUCH better attention if she knows there's a possible reward in it for her. Every few steps she walked next to me she got a treat. That turned into 5 steps then 10 steps then 10 yards. She doesn't heel, but I never really cared about that--I just wanted her to stop yanking my arm off. She trots ahead of me at the end of her leash, but it's not tight, and she constantly looks back at me to make sure I'm close and to get treats. Even without treats now, she stays closer.

 

[corgipower]

He called it a vibration collar, and after feeling it on my hand, I accepted it.

It might be a vibration collar. Without seeing it in person, no one can say for sure what it was.

Everyone I know off-line just seems to think it's so easy, and they all, every single one of them, say the same thing, and it's always almost verbatim: "Just watch the dog whisperer and do what Cesar says. It's that easy and I don't understand why you're having problems with this."

If it was that easy, so many of us here would be out of a job.

I felt guilty enough that I crate her while I'm at work. I've been leaving her alone with free reign for small amounts of time, gradually increasing them, just when I run to the store or have other errands, and so far she's done well with it, but sometimes due to the circumstances with my job, even though I'm only supposed to work 8 hours a day, I sometimes end up being gone for 12 hours and I'm sure that she would destroy something in the house in that time, and that would lead to huge problems with my sister and her husband, as they're my roommates.

If you want to give her a little more freedom without destructiveness, you can set up an ex-pen for her, or use baby gates to block her in a puppy proofed room.

I've run into a few sit means sit trainers, Some were terrible and I wouldnt let with in 100 ft of remote collar or my dog and some have been very talented trainers far from the barbaric shock em into submission brush that has been painted on here.

If you trust everyone on here more then fine, but if the trainer seemed to make sense to you and you felt comfortable with them why not try? If you've seen his dogs or seen him train other dogs and you like the results, why not? if they start doing stuff you're uncomfortable with then leave, it's always an option.

^I agree^.

The thing about "sit means sit" -- or petsmart, petco, bark busters, or any of the other national companies that do dog training is that if the trainer only goes through their program, they are usually underqualified to do much training. But some have prior experience or they continue their own education afterwards. When I look for a trainer, I don't look at things like the company name, I look at the individual.

 

[JudithMary]

Wow . . . if the economy weren't so lousy right now I'd suggest you quit that job and never talk to that lady again! Even with the economy the way it is--it doesn't hurt to look around, right?

You got my vote on that one. She has no right to say that sort of thing to you. What a nasty woman.

I had never heard of that training method till this thread but there are many good training books out there. Read Cesar and persist and be consistant. Your pup will get better. Don't be so hard on yourself. You are trying to do the best for your dog.

 

[Dekka]

Well read Ceasar to know what NOT to do..

Ado those articles are great!! I bookmarked them to use when ever people start going on about how great CM is. LOL they are more eloquent than I.

It might be a vibration collar. BUT from talking to people who have done the program, they might start you off on a vibration collar, and when that no longer works... then they suggest an E collar.

Yes the trainer might be a good one. BUT if he was very good he wouldn't need to stay with a company like Sit Means Sit. If you go on youtube and watch their vids.. its not a company I would be comfortable promoting. They are very much into the ecollar for training.

AND the OP picked a fabulous place the first time All sorts of credentials, proven training and dogs. And if you want to get into agility the last thing you want to do is to train your dog to NOT offer behaviours. I have yet to meet a shock collar trained dog who is happy to offer and shape behaviours. (as anything not asked for has a good chance of being suppressed.. so offering is not 'safe')

 

[TinyTinaTunaFish]

Thank you so much everyone for all the words of encouragement!!

For the people who were wondering about my dog: Juno is almost a year old. She'll be 12 months on Christmas day. She's about 36-38 pounds. She's female. She was spayed at 8 months. She's a mixed breed; my vet and I have speculated that she's possibly German Shepherd, Doberman, and Whippet. I'm not too sure what she is. Someone told me that she has the bark of a basenji because she does that yodeling thing, but she also barks normally. *shrugs*

This is Juno with my little brother (who she ADORES):

So I went to the "Sit Means Sit" website last night and looked at the collar in the store and the one they show that you get when you sign up for the program is NOT the one he used on my dog. http://www.sitmeanssit.com/zencart/sit-means-sitâ„¢-collar-p-10.html?zenid=1d7e24b05cba9f15df4197914b001603
That is most definitely a shock collar and looks a lot different then the one he used on Juno.

At any rate, I got my deposit back and I'm going to go with my first choice, which was the Dog Quest Agility school. I contacted them about a private lesson before Christmas, and I am signing up for their newest classes starting in January.

Last night I tried keeping treats in my pocket when I walked her and if she didn't pull I gave her one or if she walked right next to me I gave her one. It worked quite well for the not pulling, but I had a dog's nose pressed against my pantleg to sniff the treats through my pants, which I'm sure looked very funny to my neighbors.

Also last night we played a game at home. My sister, brother-in-law, and I all share a condo together. We loaded our pockets with treats and each carried a toy around as well. Randomly throughout the evening we would call Juno and if she came she had to sit on command and then she would get a treat or a spontaneous playtime with a toy she LOVES (she is VERY toy driven). This really worked! She caught on super fast and HAULED across the condo eveyrtime she heard one of us.

I have a no-pull harness that I will try on her tonight again. It had worked well for us in the past, up until Halloween when she was overwhelmed with all the kids (did I mention she loves kids?) that she pulled despite the harness (although I've considered the possibility that her bumblebee costume cushioned it enough that the pulling didn't bother her). So I'll try the no-pull harness again tonight and that will hopefully be enough to keep her pulling with my stepdad as well.

About her and the crate - she is in the crate for up to 12 hours a day, only three days a week though, as my brother-in-law, since he works the weekends, has Monday and Tuesday off. So she's only crated for those 3 days. I used to take her to a day boarder's, but I just couldn't keep it up cost-wise. The only room I could potentially puppy proof would be the bathroom. I feel bad leaving her shut up in the bathroom all day though. I would have to close the door and there are no windows. She's jumped up and shut the light off before when she's been in there and had to sit there in the pitch black darkness until I got home. She can jump a baby gate. Heck, we have one of those breakfast bar type counters with pass-through area and she can clear that even. So a pen wouldn't work either I don't think and we also just have no space for one. We live in a small condo.

I am looking for a new job actually. Hopefully one that is closer to home as well (this one is about 35 minutes away) that way I can come home on my lunch breaks to let her out. That would likely allow me to give her free reign at home as well, since she wouldn't be likely to go to the bathroom in the house if she had a break mid-day.

ihartgonzo, your suggestions are awesome. I will have to work on waiting and "being a tree". =D

Juno is a really smart dog. I think that as long as I work on being consistent that she will pick up training fast. Also, I talked with my sister and b.i.l. last night about how we ALL have to be consistent with what we want from her and in our training methods and they're on board with me as well, so we're going to all work together with her. They're willing to go to the obedience classes with me as well if the instructor would permit them to.

I'm feeling a lot better about my choice now, and really looking forward to the classes and working from home. You all have kind of given me the outlook I needed on it. I realized I had stopped trying out of frustration and was just waiting for the training class to train my dog, when I need to be starting at home, now.

I'll let you all know how it goes tonight with her. I'm excited to get home from work and play with my dog. =D

 

[Dekka]

WOW she is beautiful!! We need more pics of her!

 

[Angelique]

I'm glad things are looking a little brighter!

You sound a lot happier about the possibilities!

Good luck, and enjoy your dog along with the classes!

 

[Maxy24]

I'm glad things are working out! Hopefully you can get that private lesson. Don't feel bad, a lot of the people here are not basing their opinions on the website like you had to but they actually know of people who have used the program and have seen the youtube videos of the dogs (I actually struggle to find any training videos, it's all after the fact). i found one with a Rottie and basically saw a bunch of negative reinforcement. The dog pulls on the leash so the guy put the collar on, stand there and when the dog move away from him he is electrocuted until he comes closer. they cut out the very start of that training and cut back in, i assume, after the dog realizes what to do to shut off the pain.

I think one of the saddest things I have ever seen was them training a dog to accept the shock collar he was terrified of.

 

[noludoru]

Okay, I have no advice for you, but HOLY MACKERAL! She is such a beautiful dog. I honestly do see Doberman - although if she's under 40 pounds I'd say she's mixed with something a lot smaller than a GSD.

 

[Romy]

Okay, I have no advice for you, but HOLY MACKERAL! She is such a beautiful dog. I honestly do see Doberman - although if she's under 40 pounds I'd say she's mixed with something a lot smaller than a GSD.

Or she could be a distant relative of Maya

What a gorgeous girl! I know that you will be able to help her realize her potential. She looks like she'll be an AMAZING agility dog. You guys are going to love working together.