Sit Means Sit Dog Training - anyone ever done this?

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#1
I was wondering what everyones thoughts were on the Sit Means Sit Dog Training program. I vaguely remembered someone in the chat room once mentioning it as a good program, I can't remember much as it was a long time ago. I had a consultation with one of their trainers last night and while the program is a bit pricey, I was really impressed by his demonstration.

Anyone been through this program? Likes? Dislikes?

Here's the site for my region:
http://www.sitmeanssit.com/dog-training-locations/dog-training-san-diego-california-north/
 

Dekka

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#2
Not good!! Stay away far far away. They work on suppression vs training. They have very little understanding of how dogs learn (as seen from their various comments on their websites). IMO you would be better to just burn your money. I wouldn't let them near my dog if they were free!!

The video on the main page really annoys me. They are well known for saying that postive trainers are 'treat dispensers' and that dogs then won't listen if you don't have a cookie on you. (Not true) But then their video shows a dog working in a dog park wearing a shock collar. Umm what is so special about that. It would be like me holding a peanut better smeared liver in front of Kaidens nose the whole time..... How is that proving anything?
 

Doberluv

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#4
Ditto! I wouldn't let them near my dogs if they paid me a lot of money. Intimidation, supression, avoidance training is no way to treat a dog. And it's not trainiing.

There are lot of good articles in this site. I recommend you browse through it. If you want any book recommendations, do a search. There are lots of threads about that. Or ask if you can't find them.

http://www.clickersolutions.com/
 
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#5
I'm really confused then, because the guy who came over last night didn't say anything about treats. He commented even on the fact that Juno is very toy and play driven and that can be used very effectively in training as a reward. And the collar he had with him was *not* a shock collar. I didn't even want it on my dog until it was tried on me first. I pushed it right into my hand and it was a slight buzz. He said that they don't use it when the dog does something wrong, but as a signal for the dog to focus it on you just to draw their attention if they have problems focusing with distractions around.

He also talked a lot about positive training and how you didn't want to teach your dog to fear something, that a lot of behavioural programs with dogs at home can simply be fixed by redirecting their attention in positive ways, i.e. towards toys etc.

He even talked about how their training program is *not* dominant based training. How you should always use positive reinforcement in training your dog and that it's the best way to have a happy healthy dog and a happy owner.

The demonstration he gave last night just doesn't jive with anything I'm hearing here... I'm so confused now. I put down a $75 deposit on the program, and I'll accept losing the money I guess if I need to, I'm just so confused because I didn't see any red flags in the way he was talking, how he handled my dog, how he handled his dog, or the training pamphlet he brought with him.

I did look at their website beforehand and while I don't think I watched the front page video, I did read through some of what they have up there, and I didn't read anything that raised any warnings with me. I looked at several training companies that *did* so I just don't know what to think. I feel like an idiot.
 
A

Angel Chicken

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#6
And the collar he had with him was *not* a shock collar. I didn't even want it on my dog until it was tried on me first. I pushed it right into my hand and it was a slight buzz. He said that they don't use it when the dog does something wrong, but as a signal for the dog to focus it on you just to draw their attention if they have problems focusing with distractions around.
That doesn't mean it's not a shock collar. If it "buzzed" you, then it's a shock collar.

This place just doesn't sit right with me either... in my opinion, anyone who uses a chock collar to "make it focus" on you don't know jack about training. I mean really, do they seriously, seriously think that shocking a dog will make it redirect it's attention to you?

It's obvious they know very little when it comes to training.
 

Dekka

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#8
Those are the same things the local shock collar trainers say. They 'buzz' is a shock. There is a dialy thing on the remote that changes the intensity of the shock. The idea is to 'stim' the dog until it does as asked (ie give attention) the dog learns it can turn off the unpleasant buzz by obeying. The dog is not working towards a good thing, they are working away from an unpleasant thing. Dogs often habituate to the shock and it will need to be turned up as it must be unpleasant for the dog to want to avoid it.

They are better at 'sugar' coating what they are doing than some others.. that is for sure. BUT its still not a good system.
 
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#9
That doesn't mean it's not a shock collar. If it "buzzed" you, then it's a shock collar.

This place just doesn't sit right with me either... in my opinion, anyone who uses a chock collar to "make it focus" on you don't know jack about training. I mean really, do they seriously, seriously think that shocking a dog will make it redirect it's attention to you?

It's obvious they know very little when it comes to training.
By a buzz I mean it felt more like a slight vibration than anything else. He told me that the collar they used was one that they'd made for the program, but that when they were a smaller company they used to have to make them by modifying shock collars so that it was very very mild and just a vibration to get the dog's attention.

I was very wary of the collar but when it was used on me first it felt so mild that I didn't see the harm in using it, not to punish, but to get a dog's attention.

I trust the judgement of people on here, so if you all say run far away, I'll do so. I'm writing them an e-mail right now to see if I can get my deposit back, but if I can't I'll just have to live with that.

However, could any of you elaborate maybe on what of the things he told me or that their site says are wrong? I don't want to make this mistake again, in thinking that something is good when it's clear to everyone else that it isn't, and I feel incredibly stupid that I apparently was so misled. I don't understand, and I feel dumb for not understanding, and I'm so frustrated about it now that I could cry. I don't understand what's wrong with me that it's apparently so clear to everyone else how bad this program is, but I saw the demonstration and thought "oh wow, this could work". Maybe my boss is right, and I shouldn't even have a dog because I'm a terrible dog owner. But I love my dog and I care about her so much that I'm tearing up as I'm writing this because I feel so **** guilty. I just want to do right by my dog and I want to find a good obediance training program. I just don't understand how I'm failing so badly at this.

edit: just read Dekka's post and I see what you mean by "sugar coating". It's the way he explained it I guess and he was sitting there telling me that he didn't agree with shock collars and that's why they had to modify shock collars in the past so that it wasn't mean to the dog or anything. I just feel like such a friggen idiot. Words can't even express how badly I feel right now.
 

Beanie

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#10
That doesn't mean it's not a shock collar. If it "buzzed" you, then it's a shock collar.
It could, actually, be a vibration collar - there are vibe only, no shock collars. People with deaf dogs use them.
But it probably isn't, given the system the company seems to work under...


I wonder if this individual trainer maybe works a little different... or that maybe he comes in with one kind of attitude, and after you fork over the money his tune changes. I have, sadly, heard that more than once with some of these companies. =<

ETA: I was writing this while everybody else was posting... if it's a modified shock collar it probably is still shocking, just very mildly. I would do what you can to get your deposit back. =< I'm sorry, don't feel dumb. These companies are VERY good at smooth-talking people and making their clients feel like what they're doing is good for the dog and that they are trustworthy.
 

Dekka

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#11
One one or two thats all a shock collar feels like.. a vibration. Kaiden screamed in fear on one... and promptly shut down. Now not all dogs do that of course. But even a mild buzz has to be aversive to the dog.. or the program wouldn't work ;)
 
A

Angel Chicken

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#12
I didn't mean to make you feel bad, and your most certainly NOT a terrible dog owner.

Have you ever though about maybe trying to train him/her yourself? Not everyone needs a guide, and I'm sure if someone on here would be glad to show you some fantastic books and sites to check out. It's fairly easy too if your consistent with it.

I've never, ever had to use anyone for training... I trained Kona 100% my way, through the people on here. If it wasn't for the people on Chaz, Kona wouldn't be the dog she is today.
 
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#13
By a buzz I mean it felt more like a slight vibration than anything else.

I was very wary of the collar but when it was used on me first it felt so mild that I didn't see the harm in using it, not to punish, but to get a dog's attention.
Right, but you felt the buzz against the palm of your hand. How would it feel against your trachea? Because that's what the dog would experience.

I trust the judgement of people on here, so if you all say run far away, I'll do so. I'm writing them an e-mail right now to see if I can get my deposit back, but if I can't I'll just have to live with that.
You don't have to just live with it. If they refuse to return your deposit after a few politley-worded requests, try a slightly firmer approach. If they still refuse, threaten to file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and your state's Consumer Affairs Office. If they still won't return your money then follow through with the complaints. It doesn't cost anything, and usually the Consumer Affairs Division will intervene on your behalf to get your money back. You probably won't have to go that far though ... usually just the threat of contacting BBB and Consumer Affairs is enough to convince merchants to return a deposit when you have not even used their services and they know it. Most of them count on you thinking you have to live with their policies.

I don't want to make this mistake again, in thinking that something is good when it's clear to everyone else that it isn't, and I feel incredibly stupid that I apparently was so misled. I don't understand, and I feel dumb for not understanding, and I'm so frustrated about it now that I could cry. I don't understand what's wrong with me that it's apparently so clear to everyone else how bad this program is, but I saw the demonstration and thought "oh wow, this could work". Maybe my boss is right, and I shouldn't even have a dog because I'm a terrible dog owner. But I love my dog and I care about her so much that I'm tearing up as I'm writing this because I feel so **** guilty. I just want to do right by my dog and I want to find a good obediance training program. I just don't understand how I'm failing so badly at this.
Stop listening to your boss on non-work-related issues! He or she sounds like a toxic person who does not deserve getting "free rent" in your head. You ARE NOT a terrible dog owner!!! You had questions so you asked others ... a terrible dog owner would not have even bothered to ask.
 

Dekka

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#14
Yes don't listen to your boss. I actually tried a collar first.. we all learn over time and through experience. The fact that you are open to learning and to taking advice and questioning things-IMO makes you a fantasic dog owner!!!
 
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#16
Okay well, I just e-mailed the company requesting my deposit back. Then I had a frustration-induced cry session in the bathroom at work, lol. I'm seriously very troubled by this and I've been so stressed lately that I think this was just the straw that broke the camel's back and now I'm an emotional wreck.

I've always been opposed to shock collars (especially after an incident when I was a teenager in which a child who I frequently babysat for got ahold of the control for the dog's shock collar and gave her very bad burns on her neck by mashing the button down - disclaimer: this was a 4 year old child and it did NOT happen while i was babysitting, but while he was under the supervision of a parent) so I feel really stupid that I didn't recognize the collar for what it was. He called it a vibration collar, and after feeling it on my hand, I accepted it. You're right that it would feel very different on my dog's trachea.

I'm having difficulties training her on my own, so I wanted to take her to obedience classes to get some kind of guidance and input on what I can do better. Also, I've been looking into agility classes for her, and all the ones I've seen want the dog to have taken an obedience course first.

I had originally looked into this company: http://www.dogquestagility.com/ for obedience and then later agility. Their most recent class was filled up already so I wasn't able to get in. They are starting more classes after the new year, only now I don't trust my own judgement. Can anyone look at the site and let me know what they think? I'm scared of damaging my dog by going through the wrong training with her.

Everyone I know off-line just seems to think it's so easy, and they all, every single one of them, say the same thing, and it's always almost verbatim: "Just watch the dog whisperer and do what Cesar says. It's that easy and I don't understand why you're having problems with this."

I spent Thanksgiving listening to my step-dad talk about the dog whisperer everytime my dog misbehaved (which really just amounted to not coming when called, that was the only problem we had with her that weekend, however it was a big problem, because people frequently accidentally left the front door wide open and she ran out and we had to chase her down the block). Then I got to watch him repeatedly alpha roll my dog to show her that he was boss. By the end of the weekend he was upset at me because everytime he walked into the room, Juno jumped up and barked at him over and over. He repeatedly told me that I needed to get control of my dog, and clearly, she has issues because I am not the pack leader and that is why she is challenging his authority.

I *really* don't want a repeat of that at Christmas time and so I had hoped to get a few obedience lessons in prior.

I'm just feeling so sensitive and so down-trodden about my dog lately. I take her to the vet if she's sick, she's up-to-date on all of her vaccinations, we go to the dog park frequently, she has so many toys, she is fed good food even though it's a sacrifice to afford it. I love my dog so much, and she and I have been through a lot together. And I just feel like so many people that I know in my daily life think that all I need to do is learn to be dominant and all of "her" issues (which are mostly ME not being consistent enough, I know) will just magically disappear and she'll be like Cesar's dogs.

The isssue with my boss that makes things complicated is that she's also my older sister's best friend, so she feels like she can talk very casually to me. She is often critical of me and since she listens to my sister frequently be critical of me, she feels like she can as well. What led up to her basically calling me a bad dog owner was an incident in the lunch room.

I was sitting at a table eating with her, my sister, and another employee and I was reading the paper. I saw the Humane Society's "Pet of the Week" thing, and they had the cutest dog up there (a jindo/spitz mix with a big dopey grin, she was adorable) and I read aloud the description of her and jokingly said to my sister "Hey, lets stop on the way home and get her. One hyper dog isn't enough, right?" My sister laughed and I just said something like "oh I love dogs so much. I would just buy a huge ranch house on acres of land if I could and just bring them all home." It was clear to everyone else at the table that I was joking, but my boss says "The humane society wouldn't give you a dog anyway." I sort of blinked and said "um.. what?" and she said "Yeah. I'm serious. The humane society wouldn't give you a dog. They're very strict about who they give dogs to. You already have one dog that you cage all day while you're at work. You really want to get another one that you'll just shove in a crate? Isn't one cruel enough?" I was upset, naturally, and started defending myself, and she said something like "I don't really need to hear it, I'm just telling you that they wouldn't give you a dog. They dont' like people who treat their dogs that way." I again tried to say something to defend myself and she raised her voice and said "I'm not talking about it with you. I'm just saying that they wouldn't give you a dog and that crating a dog all day is cruel and unhealthy." She walked away and my sister got upset at me. I went into the bathroom and cried for a while and that was that.

I was so upset. A part of me knows that, seeing as how she has 4 very poorly socialized Saint Bernards who she can hardly keep fed that also spend most of their time in her backyard and no where else, she doesn't have room to talk. One of them is so poorly socialized that he won't even go near other people because he's so afraid. It really sucks to have your boss say something like that though. I no longer share cute stories about my dog at work when other people are talking about their dogs.

This was way long, sorry. I guess the point of all of it is, I'm scared I'm messing up my dog. I felt guilty enough that I crate her while I'm at work. I've been leaving her alone with free reign for small amounts of time, gradually increasing them, just when I run to the store or have other errands, and so far she's done well with it, but sometimes due to the circumstances with my job, even though I'm only supposed to work 8 hours a day, I sometimes end up being gone for 12 hours and I'm sure that she would destroy something in the house in that time, and that would lead to huge problems with my sister and her husband, as they're my roommates.

I want to get her into obedience because frankly, I think I'm the one that needs training more than she does. I just feel so lost training her. And now I feel lost in picking a trainer.

I'm not trying to diminish the help that I've gotten from everyone because I truly appreciate you warning me away from this place. I'm just scared to pick another one now.

Also, sorry this was so long...

^^^ Yes, exactly!! :)

BTW ... TTTF, love your forum-posting name!! :D
Thanks! =D It was my dad's nickname for me when I was a little girl lol.
 
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#17
I've run into a few sit means sit trainers, Some were terrible and I wouldnt let with in 100 ft of remote collar or my dog and some have been very talented trainers far from the barbaric shock em into submission brush that has been painted on here.

If you trust everyone on here more then fine, but if the trainer seemed to make sense to you and you felt comfortable with them why not try? If you've seen his dogs or seen him train other dogs and you like the results, why not? if they start doing stuff you're uncomfortable with then leave, it's always an option.

I agree it is hard to find good trainers, but finding something your comfortable with and doing it will allow you to see strengths and weaknesses in each "style" and your own strengths as well as your dog's. you'll never know it all to start with and you learn more with each dog and each situation. It's normal to feel a little overwhelmed at times because you care and want it to be "right". There is no "right" except for what you find you're most comfortable with and you find works best for what you expect out of the relationship between you and your dog.

I will tell you that it is better to be consistently bad in your training then always trying the latest and greatest that somebody tells you about. at least your dog will learn if you're consistently "bad".
 

CaliTerp07

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#18
Um, wow. First off, your boss is COMPLETELY inappropriate in commenting on your personal life like that. I understand the bathroom cry--I had to do the same thing periodically when I had a crummy, hyper critical boss. I'm sorry :(

Second, Ceaser the dog whisperer is [NOT] very well liked on here! You're in a good spot if you didn't agree with him. A quick google search will bring up dozens of professionals explaining why his methods don't work/aren't the best.

Finally, don't give up! You're doing training with her for all the right reasons, and you'll find the right place. I'm new to the world of dog ownership, and it takes all kinds. You have to do what you're comfortable with, and understand that not everyone else is going to agree with it. It's a mini-insight into the world of having kids :)

Edit: Whoops...forgot an important "not".
 
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Dekka

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#19
WOW

(((HUGS))) Crating dogs is not cruel.. and human societies often don't care that much. Your boss is obviously clueless when it comes to dogs. I am sure it is very very difficult to deal with that, and your father.

BUT you have to remember. You love your dog, and I am sure she is thrilled with you!!! That is far more important than what those people think. Keep doing what you are doing, get in a good class or two and ignore them (as hard as it is). Come here to vent any time you want too :D

The classes you want into look pretty good! The fact they fill up so fast is a good sign too.
 

Criosphynx

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#20
while im not Anti collar for everything, i do agree that it is an inapropriate tool for most situations and its terrifiying that a trainer would use it as a staple on clients pets... I'd rather be a treat dispenser than STIM my dog everytime i want a sit.

If you want help with training you can tell us whats wrong and trust me everyone here will help you fix it... the "right" way... lol

Theres alot of support here if your willing to learn!! Don't be frustrated its ok!
 

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