Shut down?

[Pyxel]

Sorry for another Cesar Millan thread, but this one isn't exactly about what people think of him or his techniques as there's already enough of those. This is about the comments I've read where people say he has a pack full of dogs that are shut down.

What are the symptoms of a dog that is shut down? I know many on here don't watch his show but I do and on the show he often takes 20 or so members of his pack to an area beside his centre where he hits a tennis ball with a racket for all these dogs to chase. He has them under control and whichever dog gets the ball brings it back to him but they also bark excitedly and run around obviously very happy. The same happens when he encourages them to jump in the pool and they certainly don't seem frightened to express themselves and Cesar doesn't pounce on them when they are in this more excited state.

I actually thought his pit bull Daddy might be shut down when I first watched the show and read negative comments about Cesar but Daddy often expresses himself by barking at the camera and growling in a friendly way in Cesar's face and I've seen him wrestling a bit with Cesar as well. Surely he wouldn't do such things if he was shut down and scared of Cesar? Or would he?

I'd be interested to hear what other people have to say about this. I am not trying to fly the flag for Cesar and his methods. I'm just trying to learn more about dogs being shut down and try to understand why people say his pack are shut down when it seems to me they aren't.

 

[Criosphynx]

A dog can be "normal" during som' activities and shut down during others.

I think alot of people are refering to the times when the dogs are being "disiplined" or corrected when they are taking about shutdown.

 

[adojrts]

A dog that is in a shut down state isn't always like that, they typically show signs of being shut down when being worked with vs a playtime etc.

Shut down can manifest it's self in many many ways, the dog can be non responsive to other stimuli i.e other dogs other things interest. They can be so stressed (shutdown) that they are unable to perform a task that they are well trained to do.
A shut down down dog can want to leave the situation, be close to their owner (of the person they are the most comfortable with etc).

And you can get a shut down dog with positive reinforcement training as well if you train too much i.e drilling, have unrealistic expectations of them etc.

Most knowledgable and reasonable people when they see their dog starting to stress (become shutdown) they back off, find out why the dog is stressing and often look for a better method to convey to the dog of what they want.

 

[Dekka]

as has been said.. he shuts down dogs vs training them. I know lots of people who can play ball with their pack.. that has little to do with training. I know lots of very shut down dogs (trained 100% ecollar) that are still happy to see their friends and owners.

Watch the training segments of the show. You will see a dog who will make slow movements, do lots of nose licking, refuse to make eye contact etc that is a dog shutting down to stress/fear. At this point Milan usually makes some comment that the dog is now calm and submissive. No the dog is telling you it means no harm and is shutting down.

 

[Maxy24]

I see a shut down dog as one who gets extremely nervous/anxious/scared when asked to perform or when rejected or punished. It can look different in different dogs. Often it will be a dog who immediately gives up when one of those things happen. For instance some dogs, when asked to perform a command they don't know well tries and is not reinforced because he did the wrong thing and tries a few more times but is still not reinforced they will almost seem to start to panic, running through all their command, barking, jumping up etc. and will then completely stop and if asked again or given a new command won't even look at you never mind try something (Phoebe will do this sometimes).

In Millan's case he makes dogs give up by making them afraid to experiment. They are afraid that if during training or on a walk (or other situations that usually involve punishment) they do something without permission that they will be attacked by Millan. For example the dog aggressive dogs that he punishes for lunging, growling etc. are not trained to like dogs or accept dogs, they are shut down. The dog is too afraid to do anything around other dogs so they completely ignore them. They still want to attack them or are still afraid of them but they are afraid to do anything at all around them.


These end up being dogs who are VERY hard to clicker train because they don't offer behaviors. If they try and think for themselves and try out some behaviors to make you click during training they are likely to be attacked so they simply sit there waiting for you to tell them what to do or physically push them into it (molding) because that is the only way they know they are safe.


I know of some dogs who if verbally punished/corrected will completely disconnect from their owner, be too fearful to function or continue training.

At the end of one episode (I forget what it was about, I saw it on youtube a while ago) after he finishes with the dog, the dog was so fearful and shut down that he would not take a treat.

So shutting down is, to me, a dog who is so fearful that he cannot function properly or think for himself.

 

[lizzybeth727]

Shut down means that the dog has given up. He doesn't understand what is expected of him and will basically stop trying to figure out what you want. I think most trainers, no matter what they are teaching or what methods they are using, will shut down a dog at one point or another.

I was working with a lab once, a very bright dog and mentally very strong.... I could pretty much do anything to him and he'd never get his feelings hurt, he'd just take it in stride. Then one day I was working on a simple behavior, one that he'd done successfully dozens of times. But, he started getting bored with this behavior and started demand-barking at me when I cued the behavior. So after a few times of "bark=liz turns her back" and he was still barking, finally the next time he did it I left the room and closed the door behind me. After about thirty seconds (I timed it), I went back into the room and cued him to do the simple behavior again. He shut down. Instead of doing the behavior, he sat and put his ears back and just looked at me. I cued him again, and he laid down with his ears back. Apparently he thought that the time-out was in relation to the cue, not the bark. In the year and a half of working with this dog, none of us had ever seen him shut down..... And I never saw him shut down again after that. Which just tells me that ANY dog with ANY training background, can shut down.

Unfortunately, many pet dog owners like it when their dog is shut down. They don't recognize that this is a sign that their dog is stressed, they just see a dog that's still and quiet, and think they've done their job. The dog does look "calm-submissive," but someone who is decent at reading dog body language will recognize immediately that the dog is stressed and shut down, not calm.

 

[Doberluv]

http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm

Look at the dogs' body language in these two pictures. This is more than shut down....it's down right cowering in the one where the dog is being intimidated into lying down. (I think he's tryiing to get him to lie down)

The other one with the strangle hold on his neck where he's pulling up....look at the dog's ears, his whole body....sickening.

Shut down in it's worst is when a dog is afraid to behave at all. The target behavior isn't the only one that is being stopped because the dog doesn't know which behavior is being aimed at necessarily and there is always several behaviors happening at once. So to play it safe, they just stop behaving at all. This shut down or learned helplessness is what CM calls "calm submissive." They sure are submissive. But they're not calm. Dogs have been monitored in this state. Their blood pressure, heart rate, respiration rate and stress hormones become elevated. A dog in this highly stressful state a good portion of the time is not a healthy dog. There are all kinds of illnesses associated with chronic stress. (as we all know)

 

[Kayla]

I agree with what everyone else has said- a dog whom is shut down is no longer trying anything, it does look different in different dogs and I am very happy Liz brought up that any method can shut a dog down, though I will asert asversive's are the quickest route to this. This is why educating yourself to canine body langauge is soo important and to always be observent of it during training.

Taking records during a training session is helpful as if your dog has shut down in the past you can start taking careful notes about the environemnt, amount of success vs failure (take a tally) as well as when you start to see the tip off's to a dog beginning to shut down ( displacement behaviours like sniffing the ground, scratching excessively) as well as any avoidance behaviours ( I think the best example of this was when Doc posted the video of the "other guy" on tv that is great at shutting dog's down and his 6 month old puppy was at the end of a 6 foot leash trying to get away).

Each dog has a different background and mental make up that may affect how quickly a dog shuts down. I agree with Maxy that dogs who come from a correction based training background are notorus for shutting down when first starting clicker training as up until that point trying things has not worked in their favour. When Duke and I first switched over he would get so frustrated if he did not get a click when learning something new that he would start panting and shaking before shutting down. I had to learn to really keep an eye on his emotional state and specifically started playing shaping games to show him that in absence of a reward punishment would not follow ( how we used to train).

Kayla

 

[Doberluv]

I agree with what everyone else has said- a dog whom is shut down is no longer trying anything, it does look different in different dogs and I am very happy Liz brought up that any method can shut a dog down, though I will asert asversive's are the quickest route to this. This is why educating yourself to canine body langauge is soo important and to always be observent of it during training.

Taking records during a training session is helpful as if your dog has shut down in the past you can start taking careful notes about the environemnt, amount of success vs failure (take a tally) as well as when you start to see the tip off's to a dog beginning to shut down ( displacement behaviours like sniffing the ground, scratching excessively) as well as any avoidance behaviours ( I think the best example of this was when Doc posted the video of the "other guy" on tv that is great at shutting dog's down and his 6 month old puppy was at the end of a 6 foot leash trying to get away).

Each dog has a different background and mental make up that may affect how quickly a dog shuts down. I agree with Maxy that dogs who come from a correction based training background are notorus for shutting down when first starting clicker training as up until that point trying things has not worked in their favour. When Duke and I first switched over he would get so frustrated if he did not get a click when learning something new that he would start panting and shaking before shutting down. I had to learn to really keep an eye on his emotional state and specifically started playing shaping games to show him that in absence of a reward punishment would not follow ( how we used to train).

Kayla

Good post Kayla. Lots of good points!

 

[Criosphynx]

I agree with Maxy that dogs who come from a correction based training background are notorus for shutting down when first starting clicker training as up until that point trying things has not worked in their favour.

Yup. Emma still occasionally shuts down, but its getting rare now. Its ussually if she don't get what im asking (which isn't often)

but in the begining...my god... som'one must have strung this dog up. If you just spoke at her or aproached she'd turn off. She wouldn't offer new behaviors. Its was really sad.

 

[Doberluv]

I was just reminiscing (I know that's not how you spell that word) about past dogs. I use to use collar corrections but not too rough and a firm tone with my "orders." LOL. But I never was very harsh. I'm too crazy about animals to be too harsh. And I don't recall them ever having any trouble offering new behaviors or looking stressed about training. They enjoyed it just fine and were springy, cheery guys and gals. I am picturing my Lab, Bonnie in her early years and Ajax and Rebel, my GSDs. Yup...they never looked that way....like they're worried about what will happen to them next. Or the other signs of shut down, like the lowered head, ears back type stuff. So, I am sure there is a line. And it varies among dogs. But since we never really know just how a dog is going to perceive certain things, it's best to err on the side of caution. It's best IMO to go without harsh aversives, not focus on what they are doing "wrong" and emphasise PR since it has so many benefits and is so effective. I do notice a difference though with the dogs I've emphasised PR with and those I didn't. They seem to be ecstatic to work with me rather than just pleased. I guess the bottom line is for me, that you don't need pos. punishment to train a dog.....any dog. I've been doing it this way now for quite some time.

And it's so true, they can shut down or (how we used to say with the horses, "get sour" on training if they're pushed beyond their threshold for "work." All work and no play makes Bowser a dull boy.

 

[mrose_s]

Buster was very shut down for a long time. My mums ex was awful to him because he was my dog and he had a problem with me.

Sure he woudl still play sometimes, smile and run etc etc but I am still amazed everyday now after 3 years of this mans absence how much Buster is still blosoming and coming into his own.
Watching him grow in confidence is by far what I'm most proud ofhim for, knowing he isn't afraid to TRY is our biggest achievment.

 

[Dizzy]

I actually watched that Jindo episode the other day. It was pretty distressing to watch.

 

[corgipower]

Ares shut down at about a year and a half old. By that age he had learned obedience through AKC utility, a Schutzhund BH, novice level agility, basic narcotics detection and a few other things. I'm fairly sure that it was the amount of training (mental pressure) that led to him shutting down. He would still perform, but he was clearly just going through the motions. There was no enjoyment. His eyes were dull. I gave him about three months off, and during those three months, if I so much as though about giving a command, his eyes would cloud over. After his vacation, I brought him back slowly and he went on to earn titles and win classes and was an eager partner for many years. He hated being retired.

 

[TinyTinaTunaFish]

Juno has never responded well to those Gentle Leader halters. She shuts down with one on. I think that with positive reinforcement she would have come to accept it, however, my ex-husband would take it and put it on her and use it to keep her quiet whenever he decided she was bugging him, which was a lot.

Juno shut down is heartbreaking to me. Her ears go back and she will literally just lay on the ground and not want to move. She won't take a treat, she won't respond to a command that she's otherwise reliable with. She's just lethargic. If she does get up and move around, it's only to come straight to me and then she just glues herself to me. She won't focus or make eye contact.

Without the Gentle Leader I've seen her shut down in much the same manner; usually if she's bullied. She'll lay on her belly, but her whole stance is really tense. Her ears go back, she licks her nose. She'll yawn a lot for some reason when she's very upset. I'm not sure why. I googled it and it said that yawning is a calming mechanism for dogs?

But yeah... a shut down dog is sad. It took me a while to recognize the signs with Juno. She shuts down a lot less since we left my husband though. lol

 

[Doberluv]

Tiny, that is such a good example of a dog shutting down...the body language and behavior. It is a good thing you left your husband, it looks like.

I don't care for those gentle leader/head halter things either much. I know some dogs do just fine with them, but a lot do not because it is such a psychologically sensative area...the muzzle.