Shock Collars? :-/

[Slick]

I have never used a shock collar, and don't really want to...but...

Leo willfully blew me off today. I recalled him at the dog park, he started to come back to me, then changed his mind and bolted across the dog park towards a dog on the other side (that dog was not doing anything new, so its not like Leo got distracted, he chose to disobey). I yelled sit, and he did, but still wouldn't recall and broke the sit to continue running at the other dog before I could get there. He is almost two. I feel like he is old enough to know better, and if he does it once, he can definitely do it again.

He generally has a great recall. I would say 99% of the time it is awesome. He comes running right away generally and it has been all trained positively with treats. I like having him off leash even in unfenced areas. Overall, I feel that even without a 100% recall, the quality of living for him is much higher if he is allowed off leash.

But it really concerns me that Leo "decided" to disobey today. I don't think he is a risk of actually running away but he can be a risk of greeting a dog that I don't want him to.

It seems like a shock collar could teach him that he HAS to come to me when I call him. But I still don't really like it.

Basically, I am looking for stories. If you used a shock collar to proof your recall, how was it? Was it effective? Do you regret it? Which shock collar did you use or would you recommend?

I am in general not a fan of negative reinforcements...but...I am also not a fan of a dog that blows me off when he chooses :-/

 

[PerformanceDog]

I bought a shock colllar planning to proof certain things like recalls. As I let Angel out off leash at my apartment and wanted to make sure she came if she was thinking about going to visit another dog that came out that is particularly unfriendly or if she saw a rabbit.

I ended up mostly just introducing and making positive associations with mine, and teaching her that the vibrate function meant to come back, similarly to how they get deaf dogs to know to come back.

I ended up not really needing or wanting to use the shock portion.. so I have the two collars I should probably sell.

I would recommend Dogtra 280 as I am sick of the cheaper ones having too high of a "shock" for dogs and too much of a variance among different levels. The dogtra one I have has like 115 levels or something. I can't feel the first 20 or so. Angel could feel it around the 10-15 mark indoors with no distractions and such. But I definitely recommend one with a lot of levels so you can find the minimal working level should you decide to use the shock function. It really doesnt hurt, it is more like the sensation of your hand falling asleep, until you get to the really high levels then it is a twitching sensation. (I tried these on myself, not my dogs).

I personally really like the vibrate or beep functions of the collars.

But I can't really help much as far as how it went with proofing recalls since I never really used it.

You could always try more positive reinforcement like carrying more enticing treats and practicing more frequently in high distraction environments and such. But I understand, recalls are very important for the dogs safety!

 

[Southpaw]

I have to run to work so I can go more in depth later. But I used an ecollar on Juno & Cajun. Both dogs only needed to wear it for maybe a few weeks? Before I felt comfortable without it. Neither dogs seemed sad about it. They'd feel it and come running back enthusiastically for their treat. It wasn't really a big deal.

With Cajun I pretty much jumped to using one immediately, she was 1 year old dobe I'd just acquired so no recall training with me or any loyalty yet.... but she needed to RUN.
Juno had a history of constantly blowing me off, which is when I gave in and chose to use one.

I don't have anything negative to say about it or any regrets about using it. They don't have PERFECT recalls since it's not like I proofed them in every situation. I just want to comfortably have them at the park or in my front yard.

 

[Dizzy]

This is a one time thing right? So what have you done to reinforce the recall since, that isn't working?

Personally I think even the most obedient dogs are going to have the odd once in a lifetime moment of madness. You need to continue to work in safe environment on recall. I never ever ever stop working on it. Ever. Because I notice when you think your dog has it, you relax and boom they think ahhh I'll just continue with this first before I come back.

On every walk do a little recall. I don't think it would ever need to resort to a shock collar myself. But as I say on every shock collar thread they are banned here and we manage just fine. Just my opinion. How about doing a little training first.

 

[Julee]

This is a one time thing right? So what have you done to reinforce the recall since, that isn't working?

Personally I think even the most obedient dogs are going to have the odd once in a lifetime moment of madness. You need to continue to work in safe environment on recall. I never ever ever stop working on it. Ever. Because I notice when you think your dog has it, you relax and boom they think ahhh I'll just continue with this first before I come back.

On every walk do a little recall. I don't think it would ever need to resort to a shock collar myself. But as I say on every shock collar thread they are banned here and we manage just fine. Just my opinion. How about doing a little training first.

Wholehearted agreement. Blowing you off one time (which even a dog trained with an ecollar is capable of doing) shouldn't equate to an ecollar, especially since he's usually great.

He's pretty young, too.

 

[Beanie]

+1 to Dizzy, also agree with Julee that he is young. Being almost two, that means he's basically entering his teenage jerkface stage. That doesn't mean you need to use a shock collar because that is the only option, it means you need to reinforce your training.

 

[JacksonsMom]

Wholehearted agreement. Blowing you off one time (which even a dog trained with an ecollar is capable of doing) shouldn't equate to an ecollar, especially since he's usually great.

He's pretty young, too.

This. I was going to mention how he could do the same thing on an e-collar. It's not something magical that's going to make him not blow you off every once in a blue moon, ya know? The only 1000% way is to use a long line which I know you don't really want to do, so I think just continually more training and reinforcement. If this started happening EVERY time you let him off leash, then maybe I'd consider moving towards other tools.

 

[Kootenay]

As someone who HAS chosen to use an e-collar for one of my dogs, I have to say I wouldn't jump to this in your situation. I think every dog blows a recall every once in a while, I'd just focus on brushing up your training. And don't fret too much, it happens to everyone sometimes, as frustrating as it is!

 

[Sekah]

Cohen has blown me off badly half a dozen times or so over the past 5 years, and after each time I was lamenting needing to use an e-collar with her from now on, since her recall was surely going to be garbage from here on out. But I never did.

One time she blew me off for a discarded sandwich on the far side of a park. I signed up for Recallers and worked hard at making recall more reinforcing.

One time she blew me off for a bucket of raw meat near a path (raw meat wtf???). I avoided that area for a good long time so as not to see a repeat of it.

Most recently, one time she blew me off to chase a squirrel beyond the fence at a park. I made it very clear when I met up with her that I was very unhappy, marched her home and put her in a timeout in the bathroom for a bit.

It's been a long time since she's blown me off. I'd say her off-leash control is pretty stellar. I'm glad that I never opted to use a collar. I absolutely understand the impulse to do so, but if I were in your position I would step up my training and really babysit his activities outside for a while. E-collars are a tool like anything else, but I don't much care for them and don't much like to see people turn to them when there are other options available to them.

 

[Southpaw]

I also want to add I also don't think you necessarily need to use one in this situation, but was throwing in my experience regardless - you're free to choose if you want to use a collar or not.

 

[Elrohwen]

As someone who HAS chosen to use an e-collar for one of my dogs, I have to say I wouldn't jump to this in your situation. I think every dog blows a recall every once in a while, I'd just focus on brushing up your training. And don't fret too much, it happens to everyone sometimes, as frustrating as it is!

Basically this. I haven't used one, but I do have plans to use one with my dog in the spring. But for a dog like yours who is generally stellar but blew off recall once, I definitely wouldn't jump to an ecollar.

 

[Bruschnazzy]

. But as I say on every shock collar thread they are banned here and we manage just fine. Just my opinion.

Haha, yeah, I don't live where they are banned, but it makes me think how people would manage here if they were since apparently they are such an important "tool". Same with prong collars, for example.

I've never used a shock collar myself, either. And never plan to. I agree with it being said that he's young. Whether or not it's him being in a teenage jerkface stage, him being as young as he is - I'd personally still consider him a puppy and thus mistakes or misthoughts could be made! But if he's for the most part solid, I'd not see the need to jump into the shock collar right away now, over just spending time working on recall as a reminder and to keep it in his mind.

Recently, Chomper, when we were just playing some fetch before we started our hike, was one of those charging dogs towards another dog! I didn't see this other dog come up behind us behind the trees and a shed, so didn't get a chance to call him to me before he started going to say hello, which I usually do just because Chomper too is young and while he does have a good recall, I don't just trust him 100% yet if he decides another dog looks fun to play with. So, after I'd went and got him instead of hiking, we worked on recall there as a reminder that that is how it should be done, even when others come by and look fun! :yikes:

 

[Slick]

Well, it has happened before (always because he wants to say hi to an off-leash dog).

Considering how often I recall him, 1 out of 100 times ends up being about once a month.

I am just super embarrassed when my dog greets another dog without permission (he doesn't greet on-leash dogs, but still), but I also don't want to stop letting him off-leash. It is very important to me that I can play with him off leash at the park, so I want his recall to be stellar.

Every time he has blown me off it has been when I haven't had treats with me, or something too low value for him. He doesn't blow me off when I have something super high value. That being said, I am also not willing to carry super high value treats with me 24/7. I want him to behave no matter what. He definitely seems to know when I do and do not have treats on me.

I have proofed it in distracting situations, but again, with high level treats. I can't seem to make the transition to coming 100% when I don't have any treats.

I guess I thought that he would listen better if disobeying also meant a small punishment (I would use the vibration not shock).

But as said, not sold on it yet. Just frustrated :-/

 

[StompinT]

I recently read a study done about e collars. I'll have to find it .... maybe Smart Dog University posted it? In any case, the findings were that dogs with ecollars aren't any better trained than those trained without. Who knows? I've never used one, never considered it.

Anyway, see if you can track down the study. It might give you some more information you'll find useful in your decision.

 

[amberdyan]

Well, it has happened before (always because he wants to say hi to an off-leash dog).

Considering how often I recall him, 1 out of 100 times ends up being about once a month.

I am just super embarrassed when my dog greets another dog without permission (he doesn't greet on-leash dogs, but still), but I also don't want to stop letting him off-leash. It is very important to me that I can play with him off leash at the park, so I want his recall to be stellar.

Every time he has blown me off it has been when I haven't had treats with me, or something too low value for him. He doesn't blow me off when I have something super high value. That being said, I am also not willing to carry super high value treats with me 24/7. I want him to behave no matter what. He definitely seems to know when I do and do not have treats on me.

I have proofed it in distracting situations, but again, with high level treats. I can't seem to make the transition to coming 100% when I don't have any treats.

I guess I thought that he would listen better if disobeying also meant a small punishment (I would use the vibration not shock).

But as said, not sold on it yet. Just frustrated :-/

I feel you here. Hugo adores being off leash at the dog park (which is not fenced in) but he'll do the same thing every once and awhile when I don't have high value treats. Like Leo, he'll blow me off for a dog that seems to be inviting him to play. He's stuck on long line for now (he's younger and not as far along as Leo) but I play recall games every single day for a variety of treats. Sometimes it's something totally BA, sometimes it's a piece of kibble, sometimes it's his favorite toy. The randomness of the reward was recommended to me buy a trainer in the area- she said it can be addicting for them because they never know what they're going to get. She humorously equated it to slot machines and the way people get addicted to them. I've thought about shock collars a few times, but it just doesn't feel right for me at this point.

I know it can be really disheartening when your well behaved dog blows you off, so I'll just say good luck and I hope that whatever you decide works for you : )

 

[monkeys23]

I chose to use Recaller's to help us keep all brushed up. Like SG says behaviors are either growing or degrading depending on maintenance or lack thereof.

Just a few minutes of game play a day and recalls are MUCH better. They were pretty great before, but even with working superficially through the games (some are hard to play with my lack of fencing and small apt during the week) I saw huge leaps in reliability and speed. Lily actually trots back to check in with me periodically without being asked. Slowly making progress on distance with Scout's atv/my parent's dog issue. Actually since 4.0 we've had HUGE progress on that particular issue, but this time around I've taken more time to focus on critical core and the first week of games. Its paying off in some pretty neat ways. Miss I have no impulse control will sit and wait and stare at me with a full bowl of food until I tell her to eat her noms. Did not think that was possible. Ever.

Anyway that is what worked for us!

He did it one time. Instead of an indignant "He blew me off!" I would reframe it as "Hmm that other dog sure had more value to him than me in that instance. How do I need to tweak our distraction and recall training so that I continue to have more value to him than doggie friends?" Just how I would approach it... Giving the dog the power to make the right choices builds some very reliable behavior.

 

[Beanie]

He did it one time. Instead of an indignant "He blew me off!" I would reframe it as "Hmm that other dog sure had more value to him than me in that instance. How do I need to tweak our distraction and recall training so that I continue to have more value to him than doggie friends?" Just how I would approach it... Giving the dog the power to make the right choices builds some very reliable behavior.

:hail::hail: Beautifully put!

 

[Kat09Tails]

I use an e collar primarily for 3 things with Derpy the wunder lab. 1 is recall proofing- there are times when I need her to recall as if her life depended on it because sometimes when we are out hunting it might. 2 - I need her to stop and look at me for further instructions - even if she's hot on a bird, and especially if she pops up something like a deer or a squirrel which she is not allowed to critter on 3 - I want to be able to "click" the clicker at a great distance if I like what she's doing - which is a great use for the tone function on these things.

Personally if my over 6-18 month old dog were blowing me off we'd be moving to a long line and introducing the e collar with the line if we are at the point where controlling the environment more isn't an option. Typically in a few months the darn thing can be resold on craigslist or go back to the drawer where my dog stuff gathers dust.

What an e collar is not is a magic wand. If your dog is blowing you off on a leash - a e collar isn't really going to change that. Also if you don't want to use the stim you really don't have to - vibration and tone is often times just as effective and is present on a fair number of models.

 

[Julee]

He did it one time. Instead of an indignant "He blew me off!" I would reframe it as "Hmm that other dog sure had more value to him than me in that instance. How do I need to tweak our distraction and recall training so that I continue to have more value to him than doggie friends?" Just how I would approach it... Giving the dog the power to make the right choices builds some very reliable behavior.

Well put.

 

[BostonBanker]

I yelled sit, and he did, but still wouldn't recall and broke the sit to continue running at the other dog before I could get there.

I'm not a shock collar person, and a lot of other people have already said what I would have about the other options.

So let me say how great I think this is - and offer another idea to be working on. I know he didn't hold it long enough for you to get there, but the fact that your dog was running at another dog and reacted correctly to the sit cue is awesome in my book. Have you trained an emergency down at all? I've known several dogs who have had fantastic ones, and I think it is a great thing to have in the toolbox. Particularly with the herding dogs I've known who had really well trained ones, it can sometimes be a good alternative to a recall that may not happen because they are SO focused on something moving. Having them just drop into a down in place keeps them safe but doesn't require them to turn away from the thing they are focused on. Obviously they are supposed to hold it until released. But the fact that you got the sit in that situation makes me think it is something Slick could learn fairly easily, and might be a good 'emergency break' for those times where the recall isn't happening.