Shiloh Shepherds?

[rubysoho]

*I did try to search the forums but I never seem to be able to find anything with search functions on boards...*


I've been interested in these dogs for a few years now. Never met a bad one - but I've only met 3. Can anyone tell me about these dogs? Good, bad and ugly? I am hesitant because I wanted my next dog to be AKC with a longer history but I just cannot support some of the breeds because I do not like where they are going/politics/etc... I do want a breed with a purpose. Whether it is service work, field trials or obedience/agility. And I want to be actively involved with that breed.

I've heard about the politics and a split in the Shiloh Shepherd breeders... but mainly from only one side and I am curious to know about the other side's view. But perhaps that is not good for a public forum...

Thanks in advance!

 

[BostonBanker]

Well, I admit I've only met four - but I have yet to meet a good one. Three of the four are from the same breeder, and two of the four live in the same house, so it isn't really a decent pool to judge them by.

The major issue I've seen with them is aggression towards humans. One I would actually consider a dangerous dog - at least five bites on records, two to children. His owner claims it is territorial aggression, which may very well be true. But he apparently has claimed about a mile radius around his home as his, because most of the bites have occurred off his actual property.

One had some pretty serious fear aggression issues. She was a show dog originally and I suspect didn't get the exposure to the normal parts of the world when she should have. Her new adoptive family seemed to want to do right by her, but I only saw her through a six week class, so I don't know how she wound up.

Very, very low drive for working in all of them. I would not pick one for any sort of sport or work; in the right hands, they may make quite nice pets. But I've certainly had my image of them ruined by the ones I've met.

Oh, and some links to previous threads:

http:
//www.chazhound.com/forums/t85429/

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t52975/

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t35121/

 

[Romy]

I've seen a lot of them at the local international dog shows. The ones I have seen there were really nice. They were friendly, stable around the other dogs, and really moderate/balanced as far as their physiques went. Honestly, they were not terribly over sized like I hear people complain about. I remember one beautiful plush coated female who was smaller than a lot of BYB GSDs I see.

There's definitely people out there breeding crap for shilohs. If I was looking into them I'd probably go back to those international shows and talk to those folks, find out if they OFA, etc.

What kinds of sports and things are you wanting to do with one? They didn't strike me as being the kind of dog you could do PP or bite sports with, as their temperaments were a lot more marshmallowy than working shepherds. I imagine a sound shiloh could probably do fine with regular hiking and agility type activities though. It might be interesting to try herding and see if there is any instinct.

 

[Xandra]

Name an AKC recognized breed and I bet we can find you a good breeder of them. It doesn't matter if 90% of the breed sucks, it doesn't matter if the breed is AKC recognized- good breeders make good dogs.

You're going to have to learn about good breeders and how to identify them no matter which breed you get a dog from.

As for Shiloh shepherds I've never met one. Seems like the breed founder wanted a basterdization of a GSD.

Ok off the breed's "home" website (The breed's name is trademarked? WTF) It says this:
"Do you remember a specific 'German Shepherd' you used to know as a child (or if you are under 40) one that your family or friends told you about? He was the dog with that super, almost human intelligence; that big family protector that was so very gentle with little children, yet would give his life for his master without question.


The dog that would walk you to the school bus, and then show up again exactly on time to wait for your return; the hero that everyone talked about; the one that seemed half human. His personality consisted of Lassie, Strongheart, and Rin Tin Tin all rolled into one.
Well, that dog is still here today, and he is called a SHILOH SHEPHERDâ„¢!"
Uhm no folks its called a German Shepherd Dog. Strongheart and Rin Tin Tin were German Shepherds, not overweight fluffers.

It's like every BYB website I have ever seen only it's the Breed Club site.

That site about them should be enough to turn a person. I am insulted on behalf of the German Shepherd breed by the BS on there. "Old style GSD" is described on the homepage of the first licensed breed.

BYB ALARM ANYBODY??


Good breeders will have a site pretty much like this:

Hello! Welcome to our site.

Here are our dogs. They are healthy. Here is proof. This is what we do with them. The dogs we breed to well at this. Here is proof. If you would like to contact us about a puppy, here is our number!

No fluff about the breed being more **~MaGiCaL~** than everything else out there, no height/weight stats posted all over the place and I can't think of one that claims to be the "original" version of another breed.

My advice- stay far, far away, or at least be careful. What drew you to these dogs specifically?

 

[AGonzalez]

Xandra said about my basic opinion of them. They look like majorly overgrown GSD's, I've yet to see a breeder of them provide proof of health, and if I hear "Old world/Old style GSD's" again I'm going to barf.

If you want an "old style" GSD, there's working dogs.

 

[rubysoho]

Thanks all, I did some more digging here and managed to find at least 3 or 4 threads. One with PDFs scanned from another board. Very informative. And also gave me a new perspective on the division of the breed. Veeeeeery interesting stuff. And it seems I can find more to back up one side than the other which is helping me wade through the mess.

The breed I settle on will dictate what I want to do with said dog - for the most part. From reading about the SS they are not meant for herding, bite work, etc... I am not sure I want the sharpness that comes along with those activities either (at least the schutzhund). Field trials are something that I find fascinating. I am primarily thinking obedience/agility as a main focus because it is easiest for me to do on a regular schedule. If the temperament is right I'd love the dog to do service work at hospitals (SS's are probably too big because their size might frighten people/children).

BB, your temperament description is definitely different from what I experienced. But then with other breeds I've run in to more bad examples than I can remember good (Chows, GSDs, BMs).

I plan on visiting the breeder(s) - of whatever breed - to meet the dogs and get a better understanding of common temperament traits in the different lines - amongst other things.


Thanks again, all!

 

[CaliTerp07]

If you're looking for the dog to dictate what you do with it, why not rescue? If you have a clear goal in mind (Schutzhund, agility titles, therapy dog titles), there's definitely merit in picking a specific breed meant to do that activity from a good breeder. But it sounds like you want to get a dog and get to know it, then pick an activity that the dog would thrive in.

We had the same mentality when we got our dog. I live in NoVA as well, and this place has more rescues than anywhere I've ever been in my life, so it was really easy to find a dog that fit our family. Then, as we got to know her, we realized she'd be a perfect fit for agility, and we went from there.

Just a thought. I don't want to derail this thread. You may have specific reasons for wanting an AKC registered dog, I don't know.

 

[Romy]

I'd recommend settling on what characteristics you want to live with and what you want to do with the dog first, and then finding a breeder who breeds for those traits, or an adult who fits your needs. Regardless of what breed you want.

It's good that you know you don't want a sharp dog. There are breeders with purebred GSDs whose dogs aren't so sharp. The lines I have met that were bred specifically for SAR here in the states had what I would consider prime companion material for most average families wanting an "old farm style" german shepherd. Low defense drive, big barks to alert if someone came in the yard, high drive to please/obedience, physically sound, friendly and stable around people and livestock, etc.

As far as therapy dogs needing to be smaller, that's not necessarily the case. When someone is bedridden, it's kind of nice for the dog's face to be right there for petting. Same thing for folks in wheelchairs. You can accommodate all different sizes in therapy work, first and foremost you need a good temperament.

 

[Xandra]

Schutzhund dogs don't have to be sharp. One of the biggest complaints people have about Sch is the dog "sees it all as a game." I mean they aren't golden retrievers if that is what you're looking for but they can be gregarious and the outcome depends a lot on socialization when the dog is a pup. Now, unless you specifically seek out otherwise, it will probably have a lot of "drive" and be very energetic, which would be a plus as far as obedience and agility goes, but can be annoying. When you say you're leery of sharpness what situations are you thinking of?

If you're planning on being competitive in agility the Shiloh shepherd is probably too big. Agility is classed by height and the biggest height class is dogs over 22". (I just checked that) So your 30" 100lb + dog is going to be competing against malinois sized things.

Whatever dog you buy you'll buy a good example of the breed, so whether 50% of a breed sucks or not doesn't really matter. Go and meet GOOD examples of GSD's, mals, maybe koolies or kelpies or ACD's.

ETA: Just read your intro. There are a lot of breeds that fit your criteria well, the Shiloh shepherd is quite large, lots of hair and may not do well hiking in the summer heat. Also, sorry if I come off a bit militant. It's not really my intent lol

 

[BostonBanker]

As I said, I am well aware that my experience comes from a limited pool.

If you're planning on being competitive in agility the Shiloh shepherd is probably too big. Agility is classed by height and the biggest height class is dogs over 22". (I just checked that) So your 30" 100lb + dog is going to be competing against malinois sized things.

Absolutely. If you just want to play around a bit with agility at home, they would be fine I'm sure. I'd have serious concerns about jumping full height with a dog that is that size. I also don't think they ones I've met have the drive to do much as agility dogs - again, assuming you are speaking of competitive agility. I can see them being more successful in obedience.

And I promise to leave it at that. I don't mean to be a spoilsport - I've just had such bad experience with them.

 

[rubysoho]

Xandra, I don't think you are militant at all!

I've been putting lots of thought in to what I will and will not like. I've deemed hair to be minor. I brush my long hair cat almost every day. While I type this on my boyfriend's computer (visiting him) there are bits of dog hair from his bulldog. It might mean I need to vacuum more often, but in reality that isn't a bad thing.

Hiking during summer months will be during the coolest parts of the day. Never midday. And depending on heat the length and location of the hike would be greatly considered (so many types of hiking trails here in NoVA!).

I do not foresee myself wanting to be hugely competitive in agility. While I am very competitive by nature I just don't think I will apply that edge to agility.... Of course, I say that now.... Still, I would much rather get a dog based on my current thoughts (that I want to use agility as a way to be active and bond with my future dog, basically for fun) rather than rushing out to find the most competitive dog breed out there and end up being over faced.

Xandra, the sharpness I am referring to has cropped up in a few encounters I've had with GSDs here in the US and in Spain. Also with a couple poorly bred/trained BMs. Perhaps because with the few GSDs it was because I was not their person and therefore they watched me in a way that made me uneasy. In other instances it had to do with DA or aggression toward humans - sometimes both. Since I have not handled a sharp dog I lack confidence in my ability. I do not want to end up with a poorly socialized dog who becomes a liability (I would simply die if I knew I caused a dog to be deemed dangerous!). For this reason I was thinking I would stay away from GSDs, Akitas, and a few other breeds. A well-bred GSD with the "good ol' farmdog" feel would be a dream. But then does that represent what the breed standard should be? I don't know. I haven't done the research.

As for my want to be involved with the AKC. If I find the right breed and end up having a passion for the breed, I'd love to work at improving the breed. Is this something I want to do right from the start with my next dog? No. But if it led me down that path I would be ecstatic. Hence why I plan on going to shows, speaking with breeders of all types, etc...

I do want to go the purebred route. My cat and my previous dog were rescues. I have been very lucky with both to have amazingly tempered and relatively healthy animals (kitty came to me as FIV+ but very healthy considering). I've worked with rescue leagues and met some amazing dogs. But I do worry about health problems. I am not opposed to an older dog, perhaps from a breeding program (I do plan on spay/neuter for my next do).

Hope this helps to clarify my desire/needs/wants. Thanks again!


Edit...

PS - BB, you are not a spoilsport at all! Hence why I asked for other people's experience even after I've met three nice examples of the breed (nice, meaning temperament... I do not know enough about breed standards to judge on anything else). My own experiences are quite limited with the SS's.

 

[vanillasugar]

I have only met one, but he is a lovely dog. Truly one of my favourite clients, just a fantastic dog all around. Well mannered, stable temperament, gentle, and overall just a big beautiful boy!

 

[Tsume'sMom]

Just a comment to "old style/world GSD".

The GSD was first bred as a strait-back working dog, with high drive and intelegence. True "Old Style GSDs" are not fit pets. They need masters who give them JOBS and working them physiacly and mentaly EVERYDAY. Anything less will get you an unstable dog that will have behavior issues, or worse be put to sleep because the buyer didn't know what they were really getting into.

As for Shilohs:

You have good and bad in every bred of dog, the best you can do is look for a good breeder and know one when you find them. Be aware and realistic about the demands of owning anydog from working/hearding backgrounds. There may be a mellow dog here or there, but as a whole these are high sprited, smart, drivey dogs that need things to do. If you only have an hour a day to work with a dog these kinds of breeds may not be for you.

It's all about research on your part. Know about the breed before you look for a breeder, find an exellent breeder and pay for a good pup, work with an experianced trainer, and enjoy your dog because you will have done right by him.

 

[AGonzalez]

Just a comment to "old style/world GSD".

The GSD was first bred as a strait-back working dog, with high drive and intelegence. True "Old Style GSDs" are not fit pets. They need masters who give them JOBS and working them physiacly and mentaly EVERYDAY. Anything less will get you an unstable dog that will have behavior issues, or worse be put to sleep because the buyer didn't know what they were really getting into.

Oh you mean what the working dog is vs the show dog then...that's my point. I'm f'ing sick of hearing "old style/world" GSD's and seeing these huge 120 lb monsters that don't fit the standard at all. That's not what the GSD is now or was then. Working bred GSD's don't make the best pets either for someone looking for a couch potato or a lawn ornament either - mines a mix of both show and working and she's quite the handful some days, certainly would not make a good pet for someone new to dogs or GSD's.
It's an unfitting term, google just that term and you'll see what I mean...you won't see a dog that looks like Horand, you'll see a grossly over-sized and poorly conformed GSD.

 

[Tsume'sMom]

I'm f'ing sick of hearing "old style/world" GSD's and seeing these huge 120 lb monsters that don't fit the standard at all......

I agree. The GSD was NEVER ment to be a 120lb beast of super sweet love everyone disposistion. Nor were they ment to look like their butts were falling off.

It is a real shame what the breeding world has done to the ultimate working dog.

 

[Dekka]

Showing the LHW through the RBC I see lots of shiloh's. They are very nice dogs, I have yet to meet a nasty one. They aren't huge 110 pound dogs either. They do tend to be heavier though than a typical GSD.

There are a few that do agility around here and do quite well. No they don't beat the BCs in terms of speed, but they lay down nice flowing qualifying runs.

Not saying this is the breed for you, but as someone who doesn't have CKC registered breeds (well BCs are now, but not cause the breed club wanted to be) I don't see the issue in the breed not being KC recognized.

 

[JennSLK]

I don't see the issue in the breed not being KC recognized.

Yup. There are lots of things you can do with a un reconised breed. AAC agility is big in all provinces, or there is a few in the states for all breeds.

 

[Xandra]

Xandra, I don't think you are militant at all!

I've been putting lots of thought in to what I will and will not like. I've deemed hair to be minor. I brush my long hair cat almost every day. While I type this on my boyfriend's computer (visiting him) there are bits of dog hair from his bulldog. It might mean I need to vacuum more often, but in reality that isn't a bad thing.

Hiking during summer months will be during the coolest parts of the day. Never midday. And depending on heat the length and location of the hike would be greatly considered (so many types of hiking trails here in NoVA!).

I do not foresee myself wanting to be hugely competitive in agility. While I am very competitive by nature I just don't think I will apply that edge to agility.... Of course, I say that now.... Still, I would much rather get a dog based on my current thoughts (that I want to use agility as a way to be active and bond with my future dog, basically for fun) rather than rushing out to find the most competitive dog breed out there and end up being over faced.

Xandra, the sharpness I am referring to has cropped up in a few encounters I've had with GSDs here in the US and in Spain. Also with a couple poorly bred/trained BMs. Perhaps because with the few GSDs it was because I was not their person and therefore they watched me in a way that made me uneasy. In other instances it had to do with DA or aggression toward humans - sometimes both. Since I have not handled a sharp dog I lack confidence in my ability. I do not want to end up with a poorly socialized dog who becomes a liability (I would simply die if I knew I caused a dog to be deemed dangerous!). For this reason I was thinking I would stay away from GSDs, Akitas, and a few other breeds. A well-bred GSD with the "good ol' farmdog" feel would be a dream. But then does that represent what the breed standard should be? I don't know. I haven't done the research.

As for my want to be involved with the AKC. If I find the right breed and end up having a passion for the breed, I'd love to work at improving the breed. Is this something I want to do right from the start with my next dog? No. But if it led me down that path I would be ecstatic. Hence why I plan on going to shows, speaking with breeders of all types, etc...

I do want to go the purebred route. My cat and my previous dog were rescues. I have been very lucky with both to have amazingly tempered and relatively healthy animals (kitty came to me as FIV+ but very healthy considering). I've worked with rescue leagues and met some amazing dogs. But I do worry about health problems. I am not opposed to an older dog, perhaps from a breeding program (I do plan on spay/neuter for my next do).

Hope this helps to clarify my desire/needs/wants. Thanks again!


Edit...

PS - BB, you are not a spoilsport at all! Hence why I asked for other people's experience even after I've met three nice examples of the breed (nice, meaning temperament... I do not know enough about breed standards to judge on anything else). My own experiences are quite limited with the SS's.

I know my gsd will violently bark at intruders until one of us goes out and makes friendly contact and then he'll give a sniff and go find something else to do. With people off the property he usually ignores, sometimes he watches them, especially if they're acting funny. He seems to be very intuitive, like if I'm walking in a shady looking place at night he eyes everybody. He never does this during the day. That is the "sharpness" I have experienced living with one.

Anyways, they are supposed to be aloof not terminally suspicious or nervy looking. But trespassers will probably be bitten or close to it. You might consider how you want whichever breed you choose to react to say, you being in the house and some random guy walking around your yard.

It seems to me like GSD's are just not your thing which is fine! I'm not trying to say they should be. But if you are unsure and want to check them out you could go to Sch club and talk to the people there and meet the dogs.

The GSD was first bred as a strait-back working dog, with high drive and intelegence. True "Old Style GSDs" are not fit pets. They need masters who give them JOBS and working them physiacly and mentaly EVERYDAY. Anything less will get you an unstable dog that will have behavior issues, or worse be put to sleep because the buyer didn't know what they were really getting into.

I agree with your point but a good dog doesn't become unstable if he isn't worked... he gets behavior problems (ie being destructive or "guarding" to the point that he barks at every little thing non stop) or he just gets really really bored.

I know I have gone longer than I should have without exercising this dog and he just lays around sighing and huffing and puffing. I agree that they should be worked into a very heavy pant at least once a day but I don't think they necessarily become unhinged if you don't for a while. We have malinois for that lol

 

[rubysoho]

I guess I just don't know if GSDs are a breed for me. I think they are beautiful but I've run in with a few dogs that made me nervous.

I was at Petsmart today and the VA GS Rescue League was there. Lots of sweet looking GSDs. Probably one or two I would love to take home! One was much more guard-y (mixed bark/growls at other dogs and people) than the others and I felt she was an example of the breed that has put me off them in the past. The others were relaxed, hanging out, not terribly interested in passing people but still friendly.

I don't mind guarding at home. I'd actually LIKE that. I guess I've just run in to some more intense dogs than have made me nervous and that is why I have not considered GSDs. But, some of those I saw today I would take home in a heartbeat! Thank goodness I have some self restraint - though recently it has been wearing thin.

 

[Tsume'sMom]

..... a good dog doesn't become unstable if he isn't worked... he gets behavior problems

I consider behavoir problems instability. A happy balenced dog is not destrcutive, barky, nor develops aggression or other issues.

I guess I just don't know if GSDs are a breed for me. I think they are beautiful but I've run in with a few dogs that made me nervous.

A good reason right there not to own one. If your looking for a dog with size that will do the things your looking to do a Golden, Lab, or Standard Poodle may be more your speed. You get intelagnce, size, trainability, and over all friendly type of dog. You should still be just as picky about the breeder tho, look for health and tempermant testing.