She expects treats

[Ladyburd]

Whenever I am training my dog or commanding her to do something my award is usually food. For the canine dancing I am planning to do with her ive been advised to use a clicker. However sirius wont do most tricks unless there is food as a reward. For example if I ask her to beg then she will only do it if I have food in my hand and if there is no food she just stares at me and ignores my commands.There is things that she will do that she just does without food such as sit,drop,stay and down etc. But she'll only beg for food.

Have I spoilt her with food?
How am I going to train her if she expects food all the time??

 

[Maxy24]

You've done things fine so far but if she does it perfectly with the treat you need to start teaching her that if she does the command without seeing it first she still gets the treat. Put treats in your pocket (out of sight) and give the command if she does it then give her a treat from your pocket. If she does not then give her an easy command (sit) an give the treat from your pocket. Then repeat the beg command (she knows you have food now but can't find it) she will most likely do what you ask, so give a treat from your pocket. Once again if she does not listen then make her do one of the tricks she is good at and give her a treat. Repeat until she will do the beg without being shown a treat first. It's great you are using a clicker because the amount of time you spend taking the treat out of your pocket might b too long, the click will tell her she was right and a treat is coming.

After a few weeks (or however long it takes for her to "beg" on the first command without having shown a treat) once she is very good at this you should start giving the treats (hidden in your pocket) every couple of times she does it right. Say "beg" then give the treat but then the next 2 times you give the command give nothing but verbal praise/click(?) (I don't clicker train so I'm not sure if it would be appropriate to click if no food reward is coming, if you know then good if not ask someone here about it who clicker trains). After those two without the food then give food the next few times and continue switching off like that. Make sure you don't do the same amount of times not giving treats (like don't not give the treat for two commands then give it for three and then not for two and then give it for three and on and on...) or she will learn that every three commands you are going to stop giving treats. SO make sure you vary it up sometimes giving the treats more in a row and then commanding without treats for a longer stretch.

Eventually she will do the command without being shown the treat because she is not sure whether or not it will come so she is hoping this time it will. At this point it is ok to try to do the command without having any treat but make sure you always give verbal praise. Also give her a treat every once in a while for doing it just as an extra booster (not necessarily in every session but every few sessions give her a treat a few of the times she gets it right). If at any point during the sessions with no treats she seems less interested in doing it I would stop the session and next session use treats every once and a while like before. Eventually the command will become imprinted enough that she will not need to have the treats but popping them in every once in a while (every couple of sessions give her a few treats through out for doing the command) will keep her hoping the next time she will get a treat and extra assurance that she is doing things right.

Hope this helps, more people will probably pitch in soon. Good Luck!

 

[Ladyburd]

Thanks a million for that advice Maxy!
Ill be sure to practice that when Im training her.

 

[daaqa]

hi there! i've just started clicker training myself, and it's awesome! after a while, with many dogs, the click becomes the reward they work for! with older dogs it takes a while to get them used to the process, though. i would read up on the principles of clicker training and it will really help you understand it.

a couple of books:
don't shoot the dog - karen pryor [and amazing book on the theory of positive reinforcement - helped me understand things in life, not just dog training]
getting started: clicker training for dogs - karen pryor [a nice little short book that has step by step instructions.]

also, a great resource is

clicker solutions, a website that has all sorts of FAQ answers and articles on clicker training, as well as a mailing list where you can ask questions to trainers. i've found it very helpful.

maxy, you never want to click without rewarding. it doesn't have to be food, but it DOES need to be something the dog wants. otherwise, the click loses it's power. once a dog has learned a skill, you don't click/treat every time. but yeah, you never click without treating.

 

[daaqa]

here is an excerpt from the clicker solutions website regarding treats:

People are terrified of being tied to the clicker and food treats. Fortunately, they need not fear.

The clicker is an event marker, used to identify correct performance during the early learning stage of training a behavior. Once the behavior is fully-shaped, on cue, and strong, you don’t need its precision anymore. So you can simply replace it with a verbal marker/release word. If you don’t have a clicker with you, you can always mark verbally—or even just deliver the reinforcer directly.

Food, as explained in earlier sections, is not the only reinforcer you have available. Yes, you do need to continue reinforcing behavior—at least occasionally—but that reinforcement doesn’t have to be with a food treat or even with anything you “give” the dog. Instead the reinforcement might be the opportunity to do something it really likes or, if you’re lucky, the behavior itself might become self-reinforcing!

Food can be misused, of course. Some people complain that their dog will do anything as long as food is present. That is an example of how wonderful dogs are at discriminating. If food is visible every time you train—whether used as a lure or in a treat bag around your waist—the dog will quickly come to believe that food is part of the equation. This problem isn’t limited to problems fading food. Dogs are frequently trained to perform behaviors only when they are directly in front of their trainer, when their trainer is standing, or when in a specific location. All of these problems can be avoided by making sure that you vary during training everything that isn’t tied directly to the behavior.

 

[Maxy24]

maxy, you never want to click without rewarding. it doesn't have to be food, but it DOES need to be something the dog wants. otherwise, the click loses it's power. once a dog has learned a skill, you don't click/treat every time. but yeah, you never click without treating.

Thank you, I've never done or read thoroughly about clicker training I just know the basic idea. Learn something new everyday! I have also heard the book "Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons is a good clicker training book.

 

[Ladyburd]

Great thanks! Im checking out that website now!
So would a click and a ''Good Girl'' be ok as a reward?

 

[Angel Chicken]

If your pup is anything like my Kona, praise and love will get her to do anything!

Kona (Who is a JRT Mix) loves to hear "Good GIRL!!!" and she loves to see me get all excited over her doing something I want.

 

[Maxy24]

If your pup is anything like my Kona, praise and love will get her to do anything!

Kona (Who is a JRT Mix) loves to hear "Good GIRL!!!" and she loves to see me get all excited over her doing something I want.

My dog was like that when he was younger (when he got older he didn't really feel like doing much, I kinda blame his food, Pedigree nastiness, for his lack of energy) and would be so happy for praise. My uncle's dog on the other hand would not go for that. She will need to be carefully weaned off of treat praise.

 

[daaqa]

So would a click and a ''Good Girl'' be ok as a reward?

the biggest thing about rewards [reinforcers] is that the dog decides what works. my dog will only sometimes work for praise [if she is in the right mood and there are no distractions]- she is very food motivated. one of the key things, though, is that i have to put the food somewhere different every time, or she just looks for it.
one day when i am training her, i have it on my lap. another day, it's hiding on the bookshelf. the big thing is that she doesn't always know that i have taken treats and clicker out, so she doesn't expect it.
now, she looks for the click first, treat second.

 

[daaqa]

here is a great overview of how to get a behavior and then fade out the food: [C/T = click/treat]

Remember, THE DOG decides if you've moved too fast, by its behavior!!

1. First, get the behavior you want.

You can do this through luring, waiting for it naturally, or shaping it from small pieces. I recommend shaping naturally if possible. If you can't get the entire behavior, get a small part of it and work forward from there. If you are going to do this (shaping through successive approximations) remember to have a mental picture of exactly what you want in the end.

2. Then change the picture. (Generalize it.)

For example, if you have been C/T'ing your dog for sitting right in front of you every time, start having him sit in different directions, with you facing different ways etc. Start with this step early on, after two or three C/Ts.

Remember the class mantra: DOGS DON'T GENERALIZE. This is a step that you should be doing from the beginning through the end of getting a behavior to fluency. You won't necessarily completely generalize before going to number 3.

3. Then add a cue. (Name the behavior.)

Don't add the cue to the behavior unless you are willing to bet $50 the dog will perform the behavior with no input from you. This is where the command/cue is added. Start saying the cue/command right before you think the dog is going to give you the behavior. Don't forget once you add this step, you only C/T when the animal does the behavior as a result of the cue/command.

4. Then make the behavior harder.

Here is where we start to require more reps for one treat, only C/T for faster responses, or start extending to greater distances, etc. This is where you go from getting generally what you wanted to specifically what your picture of perfect is.

5. Take it on the road and practice in different locations and with various distractions.

This last step in the learning process is the most important because it is the distractions that normally cause the dog not to respond to the cues. It is also the hardest step because there are so many different distractions. People correct their dog for not listening, but in reality most of the time it's a failure to follow through with this step!! For example, asking your dog to heel or walk on a loose leash in your back yard is not the same as asking your dog to heel in a horse pasture with horses running all around.

WHATEVER ENVIRONMENT YOU WANT THE BEHAVIOR IN, TRAIN THE BEHAVIOR IN THAT ENVIRONMENT. If you don't, you're not being fair to the dog.

Repeat the class mantra with me…..DOGS DON'T GENERALIZE!!

6. Eliminate the clicker.

Slowly start using praise as a reward. The reward is still VERY important, but the clicker is a communication device to teach the dog what we want. Now that they know, we don't need the clicker, just the reward for a good job.

Some people don't like rewarding their dog with food. If that is the case, by now you can gradually change over to praise. If you don't have a problem with it, continue using it variably. Give your dog food for a reward every once in a while and praise, tug, chase, loving etc. all the other times.

Remember, nobody and nothing works for free!!! Dogs are no different, give them something for a job well done and give them nothing for not doing the job.

 

[daaqa]

i think one of the biggest things to realize with training is that you are teaching the dog to look for specific cues to a behavior. if you lean over every time you ask the dog to sit, your dog may take the "lean over" as the cue, not your actual word "sit." so then, if you hold up a piece of food for the dog to perform a behavior, you have taught the dog that "holding up a piece of food" is the cue to do something. it doesn't mean the dog only will work for food, it means that you have trained the dog to look for your body language. step #2 in the article above talks about generalizing a behavior - this means teaching the dog to do it no matter what position you are in [sitting, standing, looking away]. otherwise, the dog will think that "sit" means "if mom is standing next to the kitchen table facing north and leaning over me, i put my butt on the floor." until you have really got the dog doing what you want, you do your best to give no cues. you want the dog to offer the behavior on it's own.

 

[MafiaPrincess]

Cider sometimes works for praises and pats. But I wouldn't be using it wit ha clicker. I'd only use something high value with the clicker. then when the clicker is phased out sometimes use praise.

Food, tugging, or being released to visit dogs is the most powerful rewards in this house. Praise alone would make the clicker less valuable at least for my dog and I as it's not worth the same. She enjoys being praised, but for something new, it's not good enough encouragement.

 

[Ladyburd]

Hi!!
I just want to say thank you so much to everybody that helped. I tried what you told me to with sirius and worked on her beg trick and she is actually doing it without me having a treat in my hand!! I couldnt believe it! Im going to start working on more tricks and hopefully Ill get similar results!!

Thanks again everyone! You guys are great x

 

[Maxy24]

I'm glad it's all working for you