Service dogs

[RD]

But who gets to decide if someone is "disabled enough" for an assistance dog? Who gets to decide if someone with agoraphobia is entitled to a dog, but someone with severe depression isn't? People hired by the gov't? What good are they? Since when does the government know what's best for the people??

It's just more limits, more restrictions, and it's not going to do anything for some of the people who greatly benefit from their trained dogs.

Now, if old Mrs. Smith next door doesn't want to leave Muffin home and insists on taking her into the local supermarket, even though Muffin barks at and bites everyone who comes near, I can see why that would be a problem. But it's quite clear that businesses have the right to ask a person to leave if their 'service' dog is causing trouble. Either people don't have the testicular fortitude to stand up to the people with the poorly behaved dogs, or they don't fully understand the specifications.

I think it would be a waste of tax dollars for the government to put together a formal testing/certification process and hire dozens of people to decide what conditions are "worthy" of a service animal. If a person benefits from the animal, let them have it. If the animal causes trouble, ask them to leave.

Being proactive is good, but in this case if we're facing a few badly behaved dogs in a store or people losing their rights to have an assistance animal, I'd rather see Mrs. Smith's Muffin yapping in Albertson's.

 

[IliamnasQuest]

I guess I have been out of touch. I thought that service dogs were allowed anywhere for people who have serious physical disabilities that make it impossible for them to be mobile without a dog to substitute for a needed sense such as hearing or seeing-- or mobility requirements. Also for illnesses such as epilepsy, where a dog can forwarn and keep the person from danger. What I am reading here is a huge expansion to span just about everything arbitrarily, physical or emotional.

I think people usually think of guide dogs or dogs helping people with severe disabilities when they hear the term "service dog" - but there is a huge range of what a service dog can do.

From the International Association of Assistance Dog Partners website:

"A myth that ought to be challenged is the belief on the part of some that service dogs are only for the most severely impaired or end stage of a degenerative disease like MS. Someone who is considered much more moderately disabled, struggling with the difficulties of living alone, maintaining a job or raising a family could find teamwork with a highly trained service dog to be of enormous benefit in achieving the goal of remaining as self sufficient as possible. A number of tasks enumerated in this section could empower such individuals to conserve energy, reduce or avoid pain, minimize dependency on loved ones, prevent injuries or get help in a crisis."

"Some patients with panic disorder or PTSD report one of the difficulties in maintaining employment is the reaction they suffer when a colleague, boss, or customer come too close to or touches them. Avoiding situations where closeness may take place can lead to someone becoming increasingly homebound.

Teamwork with a service dog may enable such people to combat this disabling problem so they can regain and sustain the independence to care for themselves by doing their own shopping and riding on public transportation. It may enable them to hold a job, not embarrass themselves by having to flee due to their phobic reaction to someone coming too close. "

This is an interesting page - it describes tasks a dog can learn to help someone with psychiatric difficulties: http://www.iaadp.org/psd_tasks.html . These include conditions like post traumatic stress disorder, panic attacks and depression. For someone who has never experienced the depth of some of these conditions, they can truly be debilitating and I can see where a dog may help. But I also think that some may use the dog as a crutch instead of learning other coping techniques (speaking from personal experience).

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[IliamnasQuest]

RD, I understand where you're coming from and that you have a vested interest - but so do I and I'm looking at it from a broad standpoint and not just what is going to benefit me. The problem now is that businesses are afraid to stand up to those who have dogs who aren't properly trained because they are afraid they'll be sued. It's not going to do anyone any good if people continue to take advantage of the lack of verification. I don't see it as a waste of tax dollars at all because it can be very simple and yet very effective. It can be as simple as having a qualifying card from your doctor and CGC/temperament testing. It isn't that I would want a huge amount of testing and verification needed .. just enough to stop those who are misusing the concept of service dogs.

This wouldn't mean that a lot of places wouldn't allow dogs in anyway. I take Khana to the UPS store and the hardward store and the feed store and the auto store, etc. I don't take her in the grocery store or restaurants. It makes no difference that she's not a service dog because I'm not trying to pretend she is. She's well mannered and very friendly and that's all that matters to these businesses. I wouldn't try to pass her off as a service dog unless there was truly a reason to do so - and then I would get some documentation so that I can make the business people comfortable too.

You know, we have to get a license to prove we can drive, a handicap permit to park in handicap spaces, a fishing license to fish, a hunting license to hunt, show ID to board a plane, show a passport to go into another country (or back into our own), etc. Why is it that being disabled entitles a person to be less responsible for proof that they can do something that's not open to just anyone? I don't think that we should use the excuse of disability to expect special treatment. Those of us who may have a disability can be just as responsible as anyone else, and to me that includes showing that your dog is truly a service dog and that you have a right to the use of a service dog.

Just my opinion. As long as we keep seeing people with poorly behaved "service dogs", I'm sure that businesses will continue to have problems even with those who are not poorly behaved.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[ToscasMom]

I'm not sure who decides, but I guess that if a blind person went out without a dog, they wouldn't be able to get anywhere. Their very life would be in danger and the need for a service dog is absolute. Total blindness or legal blindness is more often than not untreatable with medication or even surgery. That is, there isn't a medical treatment that will make the blindness better. An epileptic's life can easily be in danger without a service dog. Conversely, if I were depressed, I would be on medication hopefully--as it is treatable. I would imagine I would still be depressed if I went someplace with or without a dog until such time as medications begin to work. I guess I am having trouble understanding how a service dog would make me not be depressed with or without meds, or make it any harder or easier to go somewhere. The dog would not be performing tasks that mean the difference between life and death nor would he perform physical tasks for me; nor would he perform warning services. My life would not be in danger if I went out without my dog while I am depressed.

I guess what I am saying is, I see a service dog as someone who keeps a person safe who would otherwise have an endangered life or be unable to physically function with my senses without the dog. This is one of those subjects that could result in intervention of government, I think, because there are millions of depressed people, and if all of them used service dogs, it could result in some serious public issues. Then there are all the people with high blood pressure who benefit by the company of a dog. Add to that the millions of people with certain anxieties and phobias (probably all of us) and virtually everybody would conceivably need a service dog. And are these really service dogs or more like therapy dogs?

I just want you to know that I wouldn't be bothered one bit if everyone around me had a service dog, but I see it as highly unrealistic.

 

[RD]

Melanie, that is a fair point. I suppose my issue is the organization of it all. If someone would greatly benefit from a service dog, should they not be entitled to one without depending on someone else to determine that their issues are "serious" enough?

I'm still all for the testing of the dog's temperament, obedience training and manners, but I still don't see how the individual and their particular problem has anything to do with the issue of badly behaved "service" dogs.

I don't see why a well behaved dog that is doing something for its owner (what exactly the dog does is regardless) should be refused access anywhere. Maybe I just don't like the uptight, unfriendly attitude people in the U.S. have towards animals. Actually, that's not a maybe. I think the U.S. is ridiculously uptight and I'm a little grossed out by the obsession with how filthy and dangerous dogs are. I like Europe's approach much better. Animals are treated as animals, and accepted for that. Here, pets are often forced to remain inside the house/yard or in specially designated dog parks because the majority of society does not see them as acceptable. As a result, a LOT of pets in the U.S. are socially deprived, undersocialized and severely uncomfortable anywhere unfamiliar. So it's extremely odd to people when someone brings a pet into public, just as a pet rather than a "service animal". I digress, but I find that rather interesting . . .

Also, maybe it does hit a little close to home because I feel like I depend on my dog for support in some situations. By no means does this make him a service dog, but he's not just some pet that I'm lugging along for no reason either. I don't *want* to explain to people exactly why I feel some dependence on him, that's nobody's business but mine.

ToscasMom - Honestly, I see where you're coming from, and while I agree that people with issues such as blindness often truly do rely on their assistance dogs in order to function, many other people with "acceptable" reasons for having service dogs do not. I know quite a few people who are handicapped and in wheelchairs. They don't have dogs and they get along okay, albeit with some difficulty at times. Would a well-trained assistance dog make their life easier? You BET! But how is it any different with someone who has a serious phobia or debilitating depression? They can get along just fine on meds alone, but a dog might make certain things much easier for them. Why should one person's dog be given preference over another for "service dog" status based on what tasks they perform for their owner? And who decides what conditions are "special" enough to warrant the dog? This is where it gets too complicated for my liking.

I won't comment too much on your statement about depression, because that hits a little too close to home for me. However, I will say that the dog does ease some people's depression. Sure, they could pop pills with potentially disastrous side effects, but if there is a more natural way to make them feel better, why not try it?

 

[ToscasMom]

RD, I know how you feel. When I lost my family in a hurry, I learned what depression was. Did you know that you cannot be depressed while jogging or running? It's the truth!

I am a practical person ad nauseum, and I just don't see where a flood of service dogs as substitution for therapy and medication for depression will fly very long. I think if we look at all the issues where a service dog is really acting as emotional therapy and applied it to everyone who felt a bit better in the presence of the dog, society as a whole would feel inundated with our beloved dogs. I have a painful illness that flairs up at times. I darned well would want my dog to wear a pack and go grocery shopping with me so I wouldn't have to push that cart or carry those bags. I move in pain sometimes, but I move. If I didn't move, I would be far worse. Moving is the answer sometimes. Just like forcing oneself to become interested in life again is the answer sometimes, even if you are faking it. N'cest Pas? If every person with pain had a service dog and everyone who is depressed had a service dog, and everyone who is anxious had a service dog...well you get the picture. I also have classic migraines, inherited, with auras. When I get an aura I have roughly 20 minutes to get to a safe place. The problem is, the aura blinds me! I would like my dog to warn me ahead of time. That would be great, but realistically, I am expected to learn to deal with it myself, and I do. In that way, I qualify for a service dog too. Yes? Just about everyone qualifies in some way or another, especially if they love their dog more than they love most people. Face it, we love our dogs, but most other people do not feel that love for our dogs. But we should not use them as substitutes for sound medicine or as crutches to, as somebody else mentioned, avoid dealing with the things that bother us.

As it stands today, BSL's are popping up everywhere. Imagine the chaos with a plethora of service dogs in restaurants and pretty much everywhere else. Kennel cough. Doggie odor. Ticks, fleas, ringworm transferable to humans, --for we know that not everyone pays attention to these things with their dogs. What would asthmatics do, people who are allergic, people with lung disease, people whose fear is dogs?.....it goes on and on. That is why I fear that if this idea takes hold in an uncontrolled way, it will of course be abused and in some cases, used as a substitute for medical science. And then the laws will be made. Yes, I know, I am practical ad nauseum. Forgive me.

Waitress! There's a HAIR in my food!

 

[IliamnasQuest]

I am a practical person ad nauseum, and I just don't see where a flood of service dogs as substitution for therapy and medication for depression will fly very long.

I think that people are over-medicated these days and that proper use of a therapy dog would be a much better alternative. I had a friend with depression and bi-polar who - in the midst of taking all the meds they thought he should take - killed himself. I wonder if he would have done better with the emotional support of a service dog .. unfortunately we will never know.

There's a huge difference between a temporary depression and one that debilitates a person. By temporary I mean one that happens suddenly and you do your grieving and work out of it (I'm not down-playing the loss of your family .. I have lost several family members myself). I'm talking long-term, deep depression that cuts out all color from your life and makes it nearly impossible to function normally. I don't think people can truly understand it until they've been there and felt it. It's difficult to even explain how bad it is. People in a deep depression often muddle through their day-to-day lives and almost appear normal, but inside there's nothing .. not even much pain .. not even a desire to die. It's just gray. There's no cry for help. There's no threat of suicide. There's no attempt at attention ploys. You just plain don't care one way or the other. This is not the typical teenage blues. This is not the grief of losing someone. This is something way deeper than either of those.

Animals have an amazing ability to work into the hearts of people who are severely depressed. I can't downplay this. The security of a dog who gives some focus to a depressed person may help that person get out of their house and go to the store. This is more valuable than any drug the doctors want to push on you. Drugs often provide more harm than good - with the illness I have, I get all sorts of (legal) drugs pushed my way. If I had to choose between the drugs and my dogs, I'd take the dogs. No question.

So I won't downplay the value of a service animal to someone with depression or other psychiatric problems. No, I don't think someone who is in a temporary depression about something that happened in their life should be able to take their dogs everywhere. But a person can be disabled to a high extent by real depression and that would qualify for a service dog in my eyes.

RD - I haven't run into the "uptight, unfriendly attitude people in the U.S. have towards animals" in my area. What I HAVE run into is the lack of time and commitment the typical pet person will put into their dogs. Even the "service dog" that I saw here recently had a definite lack of training and manners. I can't say what goes on in Europe because I haven't lived there to truly see it. I do think that dogs are not as common as pets there are they are here. I know that the breed specific lists I'm on talk about how few the dogs are compared to what we describe in the U.S. A smaller number of dogs would make it much easier to take them out in public without the problems that I can see now if everyone did that.

If a person truly has a need for a service dog, they shouldn't have any problem getting a doctor to sign a form saying so. Doctors have to sign the forms for handicapped parking and obviously they do that with no problem (I see all sorts of people parking in the handicapped spots .. used to really irritate me when I was in a huge flare-up and could barely walk .. I'd park out in the parking lot and hobble into the store, in pain with every step, and someone would hop out of their vehicle parked in the handicapped area and stride into the store looking pain-free and spry). So I guess I just don't see it as a problem to expect some verification on the part of the person.

It's all a moot point at this time, anyway, since there are no regulations. I just hope these people taking advantage of that don't ruin the whole concept of service dogs before I need one.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[ToscasMom]

I know what you mean about the handicapped parking spots. They are always full of non handicapped people around here.

I do think that someone is going to have a HUGELY difficult time convincing doctors that a dog is the perfect cure for depression as opposed to therapy and meds. I mean, we only recently got them to believe in Chiropractors.

 

[jupiter11600]

Ok stepping in here as a person with a service dog for many things including depression. Yes there is Medications and therapy, but until you have been on some of these you can not know how horrid they are. I was on 500mg of effexor a day for 2+years. The average dose is 75 or so but i needed a bit...more... Yes I was not depressed but my quality of life was horrible. I had no intrest in anything, was tired most of the time, and many more symptoms we wont get into.

With the dog(s) I have been slowly working on getting off this. I'm training wiggles so he can hold me in any fast up or down movements as I get dizzy so fast, and I'm also forced to actually get out of bed in the morning rather then stare at the celling being depressed.

Besides the bad side effects, some of these medications are beyond expensive. Mine alone for 3 would cost over $600 a month. Vet bills are normally much cheaper and so far I haven't found any side effects to the dogs besides maybe hair in the mouth but hey I can live with that.

Traditional therapy and medications may work, but there is also other options. I'm not saying your average Oh I'm sad today needs a "Service dog" but some of us that may look normal on the outside are far from it on the inside and a service dog is as close to a normal functioning life as we'll get.

 

[otch1]

Wiggles?! Let's hope he doesn't live up to that name, Jupiter! Lol. On a serious note, I am glad you're soon no longer on the medication and have found a very viable alternative!! I have to ask... who's the person dancing in your signature? It is too funny, makes one want to do a "happy dance".

 

[Erica]

My life would not be in danger if I went out without my dog while I am depressed.

.

Some days, mine would. Those are the days I stick to dog friendly places where I can take my old hand, CoCoa.
As my condition progresses, which it is unfortunately doing, these days are going to be more frequent.

I don't think there is ever going to be a flood of service dogs. The people who need to know about them know about them. If we have a more nationally recognized certification, I don't see why there would be a problem.

The meds I can take for my problem are much less effective than the meds people can take for allergies.

But I absolutly refuse to say any more on the issue. This is freaking ridiculous.

 

[jupiter11600]

rofl He was very...wiggly.. at first and the wiggly butt just got shortened to wiggles.... He is very sore tonight as it was the big snip!

The guy was on tv for Kmart commercials for awhile then just dissapeared... I loved him! So when i found the icon i had to save it lol...