serious attitude and behavior change

Tenebrion

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#1
as you may know, brute is a wonderful dog... should i say, was...


We moved into our new house about 4-5 months ago. Since then, life with him has been, to say the least, horrible...

i have cried more occasions dealing with him than not. Let me start from the beginning.


Before we moved to this house from the previous, Brutus was a very attentive sweet dog. Listened quite well and enjoyed his training sessions with me, which were and still are about 2 hours a day. Along with Going for long walks once an evening. He had the occasional brain fart and did the typical Ridgeback attitude stuff with slight, on his own time, command refusal. Never a bad attitude, never a bad anything.


Now fast forward to today. We have moved in, and he seems, i know this may seem wrong, but, stupid. Period. Since we have been here, it has become impossible for me to walk him. So bad in fact that i have to spend even more time away from work to make him run in the back yard while playing fetch to get some worked up tension out of him. Which im fine with spending time with him. But im talking almost 4 hours of solid throwing a ball across the yard and hoping he cares enough to fetch. On top of training for an hour.

He absolutely, dead, refuses to complete any command. During training for treats or just general around the house active time with me. He is so bad when it comes to walking that i can't control him without having a collar, halti and a harness hooked to him. that's three leashes. The first walk i took with him, he didn't listen at all. We didn't move far at all. Down the road a bit. Where we walk to is still the same park. He runs, lunges and nearly breaks me in half. Not to get at people/cars or even animals... but to get where he wants to be, that is normally wherever the wind carries a smell.

At home, he refuses to listen to a regular sit command when i tell him to sit and stay. Example. I tell him to sit when i have to use the restroom and say "Stay" before i walk away. Something about him being in the bathroom with me, weirds me out.. Anyway. He paces around, never wanting to sit, and then runs down the hallways after me, even though i turn around and tell him sternly, but never yelling, to sit. He looks at me and just turns around and walks away.

Our commands are very simple and very known to him, they always have been. They have never changed except for the one the trainer taught us about "All the way" which makes him lay onto his side after laying down. We use it at the vet for them to check his feet sometimes.

He knows his commands, i know he does. He is actively choosing to not obey them. I have contacted a few RR breeders who tell me unless i've given up on training him, there is no reason for him to act this way. I am thinking about doing solid one on one with a very expensive trainer for 6 weeks to see if i can find any reason why he'd be doing this.

For information, he's fully clicker trained, fully recall trained and obedience training.. was there.

Like i said, he is fully trained. We even were told previously he's one of the most behaved dogs a trainer we know has seen. But now i can't even get him to listen to me, or my husband.

He doesn't even listen to a command for a treat, i try to do clicker training for an hour each day, but he just stares at me or walks away. Even if i have the treats out. I have tried changing them up as well for variety. Nothing seems to work.


We moved into a house that shares a fenced yard with a neighbor who tore down the old security fence on the side towards their house and put up a chain-link 6' fence. They have a basset hound who is wonderful. Also 3 small dogs who insist on barking at everything, including leaves that blow by. There are two dogs in a yard behind them, also chain-link which bark at brute with the most, evil bark I've heard, the growl-bark-snarl sound. They regularly fight through the fence with the three small dogs on the neighbors side.


Is there any reason you can think of that could cause this change? I didn't notice this change until we moved in with the dogs next door and back behind. Is there such a thing as doggy bad influences?

I am so upset over all of this. He used to be my happy listening dog, but he seems to have turned into almost... a cat. He wants attention.. but only on his terms, with no recourse to whatever he does.

He's been trained with a very firm clicker.. as i like to say, but i can't do anything that would seem to influence him to listen.

Any ideas?
We have had him checked and he can hear/see and has no apparent health issues or problems. He is not neutered if that makes any difference. I have already set out and got cost options laid out from several vet's offices to see which would be better. Breeder isn't happy about it, but they advised i do it if i feel it is necessary.

Sorry for all the length, i'm breaking over here. I just want my good puppy back D:
 

ihartgonzo

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#2
All I can say is... adolescence!!! Some dogs have virtually no bratty teenage period, some dogs turn into demon spawn. A friend of mine has a wonderful Husky who is the light of her life now; she considered strangling him more than once during his adolescence, because he was constantly horrible. Brutus is 1-2 years old, correct? He is growing up, testing his boundaries, and becoming a true adult dog socially.

Fozzie was such a stuck up teenager. He ignored me for a good 6 months, and there was definitely a time that I regretted ever getting him. But I kept at it, went to Obedience classes every weekend through advanced. I found out how to motivate him and keep his attention, and overall increase his desire to please me. Some dogs are born with an undying desire to please, and some dogs are more selfish by nature. IMHO, anyyy dog can be brain-washed into being a people pleaser with the right motivation and consistency. ;) The best tip I've got is to never work with Brutus when you're upset or frustrated, and do not try to force him or push him. Fozzie is as stubborn as a mule by nature, and pushing him only makes him more stubborn, and worse he loses trust in me.

What do you mean by "firm clicker"? Also, explain the "all the way" command? Is this another way of saying "alpha roll" or is it more of a "play dead"? Have you used any negative punishment/reinforcement in your training... have you taken classes?

I highly recommend enrolling in positive-ONLY Obedience classes with a local club or behaviorist, and starting from scratch. I also don't recommend playing endless fetch with him for 4 hours. Doing this kind of repetitive, mindless play promotes a dog who is neurotic and compulsive. Practice self control exercises during fetch, play tug on your terms and make him work for the play sessions, start some basic tracking with him and find it games, and exercise his mind while exercising his body.
 

DanL

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#3
You need to go back to basics- your dog is getting older and he'll go thru periods where he'll test you to see what he can get away with. If you let him get away with things, he'll test you even more and push the limits farther. I've had to do this with all of my dogs- you just start over at the beginning and work back to where you were before. Make him work for everything- do the nothing in life is free approach. Everything he wants he has to earn by doing something for you first. It works.

I'm sure your move has affected him some too.
 
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#4
You need to go back to basics- your dog is getting older and he'll go thru periods where he'll test you to see what he can get away with. If you let him get away with things, he'll test you even more and push the limits farther. I've had to do this with all of my dogs- you just start over at the beginning and work back to where you were before. Make him work for everything- do the nothing in life is free approach. Everything he wants he has to earn by doing something for you first. It works.

I'm sure your move has affected him some too.
I agree with this, I think you need to go back to the basics. I also wonder if it could be because of the move? New sights, smells, sounds, etc. I don't think you should stress about it. Yea he is bigger so it will be tougher to handle him in that sense but I think he will go back to being behaved quicker than when you first trained him. GL :)
 
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#5
Did you proof the heck out of the behaviors before you moved? Part of this sounds like old fashion failure to generalize on the dogs part...new place and the dog doesn't understand that the new place and old commands mean the old behavior. This is pretty common.

As far as not working with you at all with treats, Iam guessing one of two things...either teenage stage as som'one suggested or the dog is over threshold and shutting down..with your breed I doubt shutdown unless he has had negative associations with training...

If you offer him food will he at least take it? If not he has anxiety about the training session for som' reason and you need to figure out whats causing it.

Also what do you mean by "firm clicker" and have you used any physical corrections with this dog?
 

Doberluv

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#6
I agree with the others. My own thoughts are: First, he's in a new environment, which can stress any dog. Everything is new...smells, sights, all the stimuli which dogs are so sensative to anyway. Secondly, I think the hours you're spending training him or playing fetch with him are excessive. IMO. Even though it's all positive and gentle, combined with this new environment that he may be particularly sensative to, it's just too much stimuli coming at him all at once and he's shutting down.

My recommendation would be to take a break for a couple of weeks and just take walks in easy, low stimulating areas, play a little bit with him. Let him sort of show you what he wants to do for a while. In other words, just be pals, re-invent your bond in this new house and don't worry about commands and obedience so much. Let both of you settle in for a while.

Then when he seems to be adapting better to his new surroundings, start doing a little work with him, but like Dan says, take things back to smaller steps, basics, make things so he CAN succeed and get lots of reinforcement. Then work your way up gradually. I think two hours a day where he has to concentrate is way too much, especially if it's done in large blocks of time. I'd ask him for a little something here and a little something there, one or two skills while you're unloading the dishwasher....go chill for a bit, then a few tricks while the commercial is on...that sort of thing. Make sure he's into it, interested, having fun and that you aren't becoming frustrated. That can sabotage any training and your relationship. And it is true that adolescents, just like with humans start branching out to become a little more independent and they're easily motivated by lots of other things...loose focus, tune you out. They're not being naughty or needing an attitude adjustment. It is normally the time to beef up and refresh obedience skills, but in this case, I'd calm down for a while and then start back in after a bit. And then when you do start back into it, keep the lessons very short....10 -15 minutes or whatever attention span he has. Stop working BEFORE he starts losing focus on you. Stop while he's still having fun. You can do a couple of short sessions a day, but don't over do it.

I'm sure things will level out in time. Don't be in a rush.
 

Tenebrion

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#7
Thanks for all the support, I honestly thought i was losing my mind.

Gonzo, "firm clicker" meant i did the training on myself with tossing a ball in the air for a few weeks to get to the rhythm of clicking at the right time, then went into a good two weeks of teaching him click= treat with sitting with him and clicking the clicker as soon as he took a treat from me, and later extending it to get him to realize the click actually meant "yay" and we went from there. I trained myself before i even thought of trying on him.

"All the way" is just him laying on his side from a regular lay on his stomach, with his chest size he seems to always get rub irritation from laying on a normal lay, so we were taught to try and let him lay "all the way" onto his side, which he seems much more adjusted to doing instead of on all fours down. He also seems to know it means i can rub his tummy so he does it much more happily. Never a dominance down or roll. He tends to think "Sit" means all the way and wags his tail excitedly all the way down and then when i failed the first few times with the clicker and he figured "sit" means all the way... but i figure his butt touched the ground... i messed up :rolleyes:

Doberluv, I've been giving him his "alone" time where he just wanders around with me all day and hangs out. No commands and no demands, he just hangs out, plays with a toy or chews on a smelly treat and lays around. I pet him, when he feels the need to come and see me, and he gets treats when he interacts so im somewhat treating him like he was brand new to us, like when he was a puppy. Trying to re-socialize him to us, if that makes sense.

Criosphynx, Oh, he can eat like a monster.. there is no doubt. That is the ONLY time he will not falter on his training. I always taught him to sit quietly while i got his food ready and to get his food when i said "eat" Mainly because i didn't want him to eat like he did as a puppy when we got him, which was a lot of choking and snarfing of food. He will eat any food i give him, but if i try to show him a treat for training to get him interested, he seems almost put off by the fact that i "dare" bribe him to interact. :hail:
Before we moved, i had 100% with out a doubt belief that he understood and complied with commands, aside from his occasional brain fart which i allotted to just being young. I guess i didn't demand perfection if i should have... i always just trained him to do a command, if he didn't i never said "no" or "bad dog" it was generally a, oh look he's doing something he shouldn't.. so i got him a toy to occupy him instead, then praised for his playing with the toy.
Only physical correction we've had to do was when i was grilling (at the new place) and he did something he's never done before, which was jump up onto my back and push me into the grill. My husband had to run out and push him away. Only because he was going to put his paws down onto the grill which was very hot, i can attest to that. No smacking except a pat on the butt when I'm playing with him or he's got a bug bite i can't scratch.

Pawz,Dan, I has been playing with the idea of doing full basic puppy training again with the sit/stay/ commands. The old trainer we saw suggested an adjustment period and then go back to the way he was when he was first brought home. Play/love/training/food mainly in that order. I've kept mostly all the commands basic. Except for the sometimes "all the way" command for the vets office or a tummy rub.



I forgot to mention, He will be a perfect angel when people are around. Or at the vets office. But when we are alone with him. He makes me pull my hair out. Could it be just a teenager response? He will downright Show off to other people. Treat or no treat. But with us alone he just seems like "oh, you know i can do it.. so forgetaboutit..."
 

Tenebrion

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#8
I think i may have found a game he likes to do, that puts his brain and other very important parts to use.

I ran outside, into the back yard and hid a bunch of his big milk bones in the tall grass. I made sure he couldn't see me from the room i put him in first. Hid about 5 in the grass all around the yard. He is currently outside, sniffing and hunting his bones down. Tail wagging and up in the air like he's hunting a great beast.

Thanks everyone for the encouragement. I guess i just needed to hear i wasn't losing my mind.
 
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#9
Truthfully, he sounds like an adolescent dog. Kharma was Miss Talk-to-the-Butt-Cuz-the-Head-Ain't-Listening for several months. Literally. She'd turn her back and do the "I don't see you so I can't hear you" attitude :wall:

She was contrary and rarely contrite. Independent as a hog on ice and then up-your-butt needy.

Actually, it was kinda funny most of the time ;)
 

lizzybeth727

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#10
I was reading your first post, not knowing anything about you or your dog, and just KNEW he was 8-15 months old. Of course then I got to the bottom and saw your siggie. :)

IMO, he started going through adolescence right before or right after your move; just a lucky coincidence. The move, of course, didn't help matters. I got my dog when she was about 14 months old, and she got a new person AND new house, so she was pretty much a pain in the patooty for the first six months or so.

Anyway, besides that I also agree that your training sessions are probably too long. That, combined with the fact that I'm guessing you've been working on the same 10-15 behaviors for his whole life, means that he's probably also bored with training.

I'd suggest you quit working on the stuff he already knows altogether. Just completely switch to teaching him brand new stuff. I like 101 Things to do with a Box, it gets dogs creative and he can't really do a wrong behavior. Targeting is also fun, teach him to touch a target with his nose or paw, it's easy and fun. Do silly stuff with him until he starts to enjoy training again, and then start back at the beginning with the other behaviors you've already taught him.
 
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#11
Sound like your doing good then considering the situation.!

I'll beat the dead horse and also say the fetch for long periods is probably not helping. I used to do this with my ball crazy dog and realized I was making her manic.

I agree the Lizzy...the box game is awesome. It really builds confidence in the dog, and isn't as boring for the dog.

Also if your dog is really clicker savy just sit there and click ANYTHING. Once they get good at this they will start making up the wierdest stuff. lol

Iam about to hit the 8 months mark with my young one soon...wish me luck.
 

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