Schutzhund Training

[whatszmatter]

I don't understand how you think that dogs who have had positive interactions with people view them all as playmates, Whatz. My dog was extensively socialized and FED by strangers from day one. I can walk him in the middle of a crowd and he doesn't even bother looking at them. If someone initiates contact and there's nothing better for him to do, he'll greet them.

Good, you have a good bond with your dog and know what to do. There are also times in a working dogs develpment that they learn that not every body is a playmate, some learn some don't, if you've never trained or ever been involved in one I wouldn't expect you to understand. They don't all view everyone as playmates, but lots of people that ask questions over there are first timers and have no clue, if you give them the exceptions right off the bat, they make them the rule

I do train my dog to "submit to" (I call it tolerate) people who stand over him. The alternative would be never allowing this to happen and having a dog that may snarl and bite if someone does that. Hmm, yeah, that's really what I want to represent working dogs.

I can tell from the response you have no understanding of what I wrote so I'll try again. Contrary to what you may think, my dogs go to the vet, they get inspected by the judge at every trial, they get inspected by me and other people and they don't snarl or bite. Hmmm yeah, that's not at all what we have in working dogs. Now take a puppy growing up, he has an experience of every big new person towering over him, what is that going to do to his personality. SOme dogs it has no effects on, a lot of them it does, you have to be careful. THey learn things in stages, submitting to every person under the sun is not one of them. That in no way shape or form does that mean they are aggressive snarly or unsocialized, quit insinuating that cause its not true in the least bit.

My dogs do get jumped on, ears pulled walk thru tons of crowds of people and know when a threat is a threat and when kids are just rambuctious. The training or type of socialize we do in now way shape or form, makes these dogs unstable or dangerous. If you've never trained one, why do you claim to know what I somehow end up with??

Interaction with people cannot be avoided, I feel that the dog should be prepared for it. My dog is protective and drivey as hell, but I'd feel perfectly comfortable turning him loose in a room full of excited children. He's been taught that people standing over him IS a neutral event. It's happened so much in his lifetime that he no longer thinks anything of it. He knows the difference between a true act of aggression and normal human behavior because he's observed and interacted with them for 2 years.

where did you get that my dogs can't?? and you have a BC, , energy and drive yes, protective??? maybe puts on a good show.

Just as you don't understand where the idea that working people lock their dogs away, I don't understand the notion that all dogs that have been socialized are obsessed with interacting with random people on the street. I also can't help but wonder if keeping a dog from having positive interactions with people is a lazy way out of training good manners around people.

i'm a working person and my dogs aren't locked away, in fact I was just at home depot and downtown with my new puppy yesterday. Hardly locked away. Socializing and letting everyone under the sun interact with your dogs are two different things by far, especially for developing puppies. If someone tells me that by not letting everyone pet my puppies whenever they want, they aren't socialzed, well, I guess I'll have a good laugh.

You tell me where the positive interaction is when 65 year old lady asks if she can pet your puppy and you say yes and she grabs and twists its ear?? where's the good in that? That happened with my older dog, I wish she would have bit the bitch, she deserved it, but she knew she wasn't a threat. Or the positive interaction when 250 lb man towers over and grabs your puppies cheeks or pushes its head to the ground and rolls it over?? The pup is so scared it pees itself?? where's the positive interaction with that?? What good is that going to do when you want that same puppy to grow up and be able to confront a man like that?? some it doesn't affect, others it does.

Sure people and kids do pet and even play with my dogs, AFTER i've trained them and we're thouroughly bonded. The things I ask of my dogs are much different than what you ask of yours. All the hard fast rules, I break, but the difference is I know when and how. Give people the exception, they make it the rule. That is why things are posted on leerburg like they are. As I said before I can see the dogs that are raised a certain way, or what changes they've made at home with a growing dog from week to week, just the way it behaves on the field with pretty good accuracy. If you want to tell me I'm somehow mistaken, i'd love to hear why

 

[GSDluver4lyfe]

I don't understand how you think that dogs who have had positive interactions with people view them all as playmates, Whatz. My dog was extensively socialized and FED by strangers from day one. I can walk him in the middle of a crowd and he doesn't even bother looking at them. If someone initiates contact and there's nothing better for him to do, he'll greet them.

I do train my dog to "submit to" (I call it tolerate) people who stand over him. The alternative would be never allowing this to happen and having a dog that may snarl and bite if someone does that. Hmm, yeah, that's really what I want to represent working dogs.

Interaction with people cannot be avoided, I feel that the dog should be prepared for it. My dog is protective and drivey as hell, but I'd feel perfectly comfortable turning him loose in a room full of excited children. He's been taught that people standing over him IS a neutral event. It's happened so much in his lifetime that he no longer thinks anything of it. He knows the difference between a true act of aggression and normal human behavior because he's observed and interacted with them for 2 years.

Just as you don't understand where the idea that working people lock their dogs away, I don't understand the notion that all dogs that have been socialized are obsessed with interacting with random people on the street. I also can't help but wonder if keeping a dog from having positive interactions with people is a lazy way out of training good manners around people.

Hey we have something in common.

Who said anything about locking away? Where are you getting this from? Again I take my dogs EVERYWHERE with me, they interact and observe people as well. My dogs are never on the defense when we are out. They ae indifferent to people, as long as they are not acting in a threatening manner.

I work at a vet clinic and I always take Ryot with me (because I leave really late and there are phyco people in this world). My dogs have been handled since puppies at the vet's, groomers (which we do have a grooming facility as well), judges, ect. My dogs know people and I repeat I take them EVERYWHERE.

Submit and tolerate are two different things. My dogs tolerate people, they do not submit to poeple outside of their pack. Standing over a puppy (and I'm talking young pups) can be very intimidating and frightening. As Whatzmatter said, we want to raise a confident pup.

 

[GSDluver4lyfe]

Good, you have a good bond with your dog and know what to do. There are also times in a working dogs develpment that they learn that not every body is a playmate, some learn some don't, if you've never trained or ever been involved in one I wouldn't expect you to understand. They don't all view everyone as playmates, but lots of people that ask questions over there are first timers and have no clue, if you give them the exceptions right off the bat, they make them the rule



I can tell from the response you have no understanding of what I wrote so I'll try again. Contrary to what you may think, my dogs go to the vet, they get inspected by the judge at every trial, they get inspected by me and other people and they don't snarl or bite. Hmmm yeah, that's not at all what we have in working dogs. Now take a puppy growing up, he has an experience of every big new person towering over him, what is that going to do to his personality. SOme dogs it has no effects on, a lot of them it does, you have to be careful. THey learn things in stages, submitting to every person under the sun is not one of them. That in no way shape or form does that mean they are aggressive snarly or unsocialized, quit insinuating that cause its not true in the least bit.

My dogs do get jumped on, ears pulled walk thru tons of crowds of people and know when a threat is a threat and when kids are just rambuctious. The training or type of socialize we do in now way shape or form, makes these dogs unstable or dangerous. If you've never trained one, why do you claim to know what I somehow end up with??



where did you get that my dogs can't?? and you have a BC, , energy and drive yes, protective??? maybe puts on a good show.



i'm a working person and my dogs aren't locked away, in fact I was just at home depot and downtown with my new puppy yesterday. Hardly locked away. Socializing and letting everyone under the sun interact with your dogs are two different things by far, especially for developing puppies. If someone tells me that by not letting everyone pet my puppies whenever they want, they aren't socialzed, well, I guess I'll have a good laugh.

You tell me where the positive interaction is when 65 year old lady asks if she can pet your puppy and you say yes and she grabs and twists its ear?? where's the good in that? That happened with my older dog, I wish she would have bit the bitch, she deserved it, but she knew she wasn't a threat. Or the positive interaction when 250 lb man towers over and grabs your puppies cheeks or pushes its head to the ground and rolls it over?? The pup is so scared it pees itself?? where's the positive interaction with that?? What good is that going to do when you want that same puppy to grow up and be able to confront a man like that?? some it doesn't affect, others it does.

Sure people and kids do pet and even play with my dogs, AFTER i've trained them and we're thouroughly bonded. The things I ask of my dogs are much different than what you ask of yours. All the hard fast rules, I break, but the difference is I know when and how. Give people the exception, they make it the rule. That is why things are posted on leerburg like they are. As I said before I can see the dogs that are raised a certain way, or what changes they've made at home with a growing dog from week to week, just the way it behaves on the field with pretty good accuracy. If you want to tell me I'm somehow mistaken, i'd love to hear why

I totally agree!!! I now allow people to pet Ryot sometimes (depends where I'm at and what i'm trying to do) because he is older and our bond is very strong. He just sits there, looking at me while people pet him. I never wanted a dog that rolled over, licked, jumped ect when people gave them attention.

Its not the fact that my dogs are untrustworthy, its the PEOPLE I dont trust.

 

[RD]

Oh, Whatz, don't take what I said personally. I wasn't implying that anyone's dogs *here* were locked away. I don't know a thing about Schutzhund training and never claimed to - my issue lies solely with the idea that it's a good thing to prevent close interaction with strangers - especially in a dog that will be trained in personal protection.

I am very much on the same page as you in regards to raising a confident puppy. I *control* interaction between strangers and my pup when they are young. It's not like I just turn her loose in a crowd and let people do what they want with her. I don't trust people one bit. However, if someone asks to pet my puppy and my pup is in the right state of mind for it (calm and confident) I permit it. If they show even the slightest intentions of man-handling my pup, I either physically block the person from touching my puppy or call my puppy to me. At worst, the pup recieves a neutral experience with a stranger. Never a negative one.

I start off socializing in mild, controlled situations. Once the pup is confident with "normal" greetings (to a dog, not to us) I gradually stop intervening when people go to bend over the pup, pat her head, etc. By no means do I allow anyone to frighten or intimidate her; my goal is the same as yours - a confident, stable puppy. I don't expose the pup to situations it isn't ready for.

It's in the nature of dogs to dislike what they dont know. If an adult dog had never been exposed to, say, strangers bending over it, wouldn't it be very uncomfortable and insecure about that if it ever happened? Isn't that the opposite of creating a confident dog? That's what I'm thinking, here. It isn't that dogs who don't get petted by every stranger that comes along are aggressive, it's the extreme notion of not letting anyone but you have close and physical interaction with the dog that disturbs me a little.

As for my dog, I'm not even going to bother trying to explain to you that there are many dogs that posess the instinct to protect, not just GSDs and Malinois. Yes, I'm confident that my 40lb BC will defend me to his death should the situation arise. He has proven quite a few times that he will stand up for me if I'm threatened, yet there has only been one incident where he responded in a defensive manner to a benign situation, and it was my own fault for not exposing him to that previously. Admittedly though, protectiveness is not a breed trait. I have no idea why Dakota is the way he is. We are very close, perhaps he can sense when I'm honestly afraid.

Btw, this extensively socialized, very friendly dog is the same dog that saved me from a very ugly situation last year with some people that were formerly friends. My dog knew them and had liked them in the past, and he'd even seen me wrestle with them, but this time he knew something was up and reacted accordingly. I credit this to socialization - he could read the subtle differences between a playful "attack" and a genuine threat. After seeing this, and seeing him defend me from his former "friends" and playmates, I realized that no amount of socialization will ever destroy instinct. If nothing else, I think it refines the dog's judgment. But that's just my feelings on it.

Edit: I know this has nothing to do with schutzhund training but as a newbie to training sheepdogs, I completely understand what you're saying about people making the exception the rule.

 

[GSDluver4lyfe]

RD, ALL CPP and Schutzhund dogs (the properly trained ones) deal with human contact constanstly, from young pups to adults. Not allowing strangers to pet does not mean the dogs do not get any interaction at all. These dogs deal with threatening mock positions every day at training. Dogs are accustomed to yelling, threatening hand and arm motions, striking movements, hovering, ect. So the whole "dogs fear what they dont know" is irrelevant when speaking of properly trained PP dogs. They get PLENTY of human interaction.

BTW, I have no doubt that your BC is protective. I find them along with Aussies, ACD's ect to be very protective, and though they are smaller they sure are fiesty .

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Huh. Interesting justifications and excuses ...

I certainly never said "let it be a free-for-all and let anyone manhandle your dog" when it comes to socialization. It would be downright foolish to do that. I have never had any of my dogs have a bad experience during socialization .. I would question why anyone would put their dogs in a position where they would have the experiences described in a previous post. That's not good training. I suppose if a person is not capable of being proactive with their dog's interaction with others, then maybe secluding the dog and only allowing socialization with themselves would be better. I don't have those problems.

I've seen hundreds of behavior problems created by a lack of socialization when a dog was young. I will continue to recommend to people that they socialize properly and give their dogs the tools they need to interact with strangers. Teaching a dog to be neutral does not give the dog the tools it needs if a situation arises where the dog has to be in the presence of strangers without the owner there. I would never be so pompous as to assume that I must be the center of my dog's life to the absolute exclusion of all others, because I live in the real world where dogs sometimes do have to be around other people without me being there. And if something happened to me, heaven forbid, I want my dogs to go on and live a happy, comfortable, confident life with someone else - without any problem.

Obviously there is a difference of opinion here. I won't even get into the "helicopter the dog around you on the end of a leash" Frawley topic, who has produced over 350 litters of GSD's in the last 28 years (that's an average of about 13 litters a year .. we have words for people like that .. ). Some people choose to follow him blindly. In my opinion, he's a modified Koehler clone who uses a bit of positive reinforcement.

We've gone well off-topic here, and I apologize to the original poster. Good luck to you on your quest for GOOD schutzhund information, and I envy that you are getting a GSD puppy so soon. I was going to be getting one this month but it's now been put off to later in the year .. darn it ..

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[bigdoglover]

I just wanted to "clear the air" here, so to speak.....seems many people are confused as to the true, and original purpose of Schutzhund. This information was taken directly from the DVG website:

Schutzhund started at the beginning of this century as a test for working dogs. Its initial purpose was to determine which dogs could be used for breeding and which had true working ability. The growing demand for working dogs made more sophisticated tests and training necessary. These dogs were needed for police training, border patrol, customs, military and herding. As these tests evolved, more people participated just for the sheer enjoyment of seeing if their personal dogs could be trained as effectively as these "professional dogs". Now, over sixty years after the first formal Schutzhund rules were introduced, tens of thousands of people participate in the sport each year.

Schutzhund tests three specific areas of a dog's training and behavior. The first, tracking, requires the dog to track footsteps over mixed terrain, change direction and show absolute accuracy and commitment to finding the track. It must also find dropped articles and indicate their locations to the handler. Often this is done under less than ideal circumstances with difficult cover, bad weather conditions and an aged track. Many find tracking to be the most satisfying experience in training, when only the handler and dog are working together. It is certainly the most peaceful part of Schutzhund.

The second phase is obedience. Those who are familiar with AKC obedience will feel more comfortable in this area, as many of the exercises are similar to those in Open and Utility. There is heeling, both on and off lead. The sit, down and stand are also done, except when the dog is moving. But Schutzhund applies its own style to this work. Instead of a forty foot ring, the handler and dog work on a soccer sized trial field. Some exercises require the dog to work under the noise of a firing gun. In addition to the normal dumbbell retrieval, the dog must retrieve over a one meter jump and a six foot wall. Down stays and a long send away conclude the test.

The final test is the most misunderstood by the general public. This is protection. The most important point to understand when watching a protection routine, is the relationship between dog and handler. The dog must never bite the trial helper, unless either the dog or the handler is attacked. Then it must attack fully and without hesitation. But here the real difference becomes apparent. The dog must stop biting on the command of the handler and guard the trial helper without further aggression. Often people confuse Schutzhund protection training with police dog or personal protection work. The Schutzhund dog is capable of the feats of never being aggressive except under those specific situations it is trained to face, and even then it must always be under the absolute control of the handler.

The above tests are difficult enough, but to make it even more demanding, they all happen in one day during competitions that are held all over the country. These trials are held by local clubs or in regional and national championships. Each dog is judged by a complex point system that then determines the winner of the trial.

When a dog successfully completes the first trial, it is awarded a title of Schutzhund I. It can then progress to Schutzhund II and, the ultimate, Schutzhund III. Each level makes ever greater demands on the dog and training in all three areas. Any Schutzhunder will tell you that a high scoring Schutzhund III dog is the ultimate working dog: one in a thousand of all working dogs.

In addition to the Schutzhund I, II and III titles, other titles in advanced tracking, temperament tests, police training and agility work are awarded.

Today, Schutzhund is more than the small group that started in Germany so long ago. Its organizations have several hundred thousand members, scattered across Europe, North America and several other continents.

http://www.dvgamerica.com/

This info was taken from the United Schutzhund Club of America (UScA):

Schutzhund is a sport that focuses on developing & evaluating those traits in dogs that make them more useful & happier companions to their owners.

The purpose of Schutzhund is to demonstrate the dog's intelligence & utility. It also measures the dog's mental stability, endurance, structural efficiencies, ability to scent, willingness to work, courage, & trainability.


http://www.germanshepherddog.com/

Here is the deal, these dogs were originally bred to be of sound mind....to be able to determine a neutral situation from a bad one. But to also be completely obedient. This program was designed by breeders to choose their best dogs. Stable nerve, good drive, temperment to fit all areas (family, work, etc) and the ability to think on their own. With dogs of this nature, firm training is a must. Yet, is a balance between compulsion and reward. But the basics start with a good working dog....the dog has to have the "working gene" in it's blood. It has to show the "want" and the "drive" to work. Not every "working breed" can do it, and not every dog out of working parents can do it, either.

We must remember that training is always a balance of corrections and rewards. Schutzhund dogs must remain calm and neutral until the handler decides to "release" them...or the situation dictates that the dog make that choice (due to the handler being incopacitated)....this is where the true training comes in, and the dog MUST have the mind to do it.

 

[RD]

Bigdoglover - Thank you for the insight into schutzhund!

 

[bigdoglover]

You're very welcome! My dogs are both SchH III, and I just hate to see the sport portrayed in a negative light....same with the training methods.

Feel free to PM me with any questions.....I'm not an expert by any means, but I'll do my best to help!

 

[ResOps]

Well I sure lit the fire with that question
I have had several GSD's both at home and as an adult in my own home.We have decided to try to raise our new future pup in SchH but by no means will be following any methods involving abuse(or abuse as I personally see ).
I have ordered Shutzhund Obedience:Training in Drive with Gottfried Dildei as a reference , and would appreciate any other titles.
I guess as shown in this post there are several varying opinions- thanks to all for adding your comments. Can't wait to post my first pics of my new girl -coming soon(mid-april)

 

[whatszmatter]

being new and not having your pup yet, I'd expose myself to all sorts of styles. I've watched Gottfried's stuff, I've seen all the Flinks vid's from leerburg on drive building and stuff I tend to use more of the marker training found in Ivan's DVD's, but use a lot of the Flinks drive building stuff as well. I've seen 100 other ways to do everything as well, and over the years have melded them into my own style that I still make small changes too once and a while. The main thing is, find what you're comfortable with and do it. It's better to be consistent than constantly switching "styles" to the newest and "Greatest" thing, trust me on that one.

Some books you might want to read are, Der Schtuzhund my Helmut Raiser, Shelia booth has one or two out there that have more of a schutzhund twist to them, and Gary patterson has some good competition tracking books as well.

When you get the new puppy, they do have to learn some guidlines and rules and teaching motivational sits and downs are about all that needs to be done. I've seen lots of "new" people try and do too much ob too soon and it makes things more difficult. The dog needs to learn that it can be pulling on the leash, out in front and acting on its own before it get's "reigned in" so to speak.

I see it everywhere all the time, it's not isolated cases, but young dogs that have had lots of OB training and not proper drive building and bite imprinting are all very sensitive to the handler, won't leave the handler and it is much harder to teach them what they need to do to compete in schutzhund after a lot of OB work. We're working with a guy right now with his boxer that was competative OB wise but very little bite work. He's pretty talented with his dogs and his female is a super super dog, they're getting thru that now, quicker than most, but they're the exception.

Good luck, and if you don't mind you could PM me with your pups info, where you got it from, the breeding it came from, I like that stuff. Keep us posted

 

[MelissaCato]

hummmmmmmmmmmm

RingSport on Animal Planet Sat. Feb. 3rd
Hello,
I just wanted to let you know today, Sat on Animal Planet at 10:00
am New York time, Ultimate Dog Championships is featuring Ringsport.
For all you newbies out there, to get an idea of different dog events. Enjoy!
Melissa.

 

[MelissaCato]

RingSport on Animal Planet Sat. Feb. 3rd
Hello,
I just wanted to let you know today, Sat on Animal Planet at 10:00
am New York time, Ultimate Dog Championships is featuring Ringsport.
For all you newbies out there, to get an idea of different dog events. Enjoy!
Melissa.

.....satellite guide shows that it's on Sunday. Might want to check the listings to see when it's on in your area for sure.

 

[SisMorphine]

.....satellite guide shows that it's on Sunday. Might want to check the listings to see when it's on in your area for sure.

I hope it's Sunday because I'm leaving at 10 for a wedding shower and I don't want to miss it!!

 

[ResOps]

its was on this morning and this afternoon- saw the ads on AP

 

[Oski]

There is a forum over at germanshepherds.com with a specific Sch forum. You might get some good info over there.

I've watched Sch training before but don't participate. The only place to train around here is over an hour away and they are not accepting new members.

Yea!!! I have been looking into this kind of training and wondering where I can find some good site for it.....thank you!!!

Jackie

 

[Oski]

Does anyone know what a good age to get your dog into this type of training would be??? Should they be at least a year old??

Thanks,
Jackie

 

[GSDluver4lyfe]

Does anyone know what a good age to get your dog into this type of training would be??? Should they be at least a year old??

Thanks,
Jackie

I have been training my pup since he was 8 weeks old. Its all fun and games. Play tug, let them chase things, and just have fun. All training until the dog is at least 18 months old is done through prey drive.

 

[boxerdog44]

Sport

The leerbug method is the best I have seen the videos for ratinal behind the methods Protection training should only be done within a club not on your own .With experianced trainers . Protection aspect is only for sport it is a game . No professional trainer would teach protection ,to civillians . To do so puts others at risk,and your dog if proper control and obediance is not established .Leer burg and pack behavior is a good read Dogs are animals not humans and must be taught how we want them to live with us not us accomodating them.Something Like love , honor and cherish , obey at all times ,If you want an obediant dog you teach it order to obediance to be the subordinate as far as chokes etc this must be done professionally as well or you will have an avoidance problem and behavior issues that you don,t want.Patience and consistancy first Love is at the last of the list.

 

[boxerdog44]

sport

Yes puppies usually do not do any obediance play and focus leerburg and sch sires . establish leadership to babies no bad experiances ,