Schutzhund Training

ResOps

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#1
Hi
I'm looking for input from those on here who have or are currently training their dogs in Schutzhund. I am soon to have a new GSD pup who comes from a line of Schutzhund trained dogs from Germany, and I would like to do so as well.
I'm basically looking for tips , tricks or any comments related to the Schutzhund field.
Tx ~Res
 

DanL

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#2
There is a forum over at germanshepherds.com with a specific Sch forum. You might get some good info over there.

I've watched Sch training before but don't participate. The only place to train around here is over an hour away and they are not accepting new members.
 

ResOps

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#3
Tx Dan,
I'll check it out- I have had GSD's since I was a boy but we never trined them this way. I figure I'm mature enough now to devote the time ;)
 
T

tessa_s212

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#8
I agree with Lizmo. Be careful of the advice you get for training in Schutzhund.. some trainers such as Leerburg are just downright abusive.
 

RD

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#9
Leerburg's forum isn't JUST people who use his methods. Though I do agree with the majority that he is way too harsh.
 
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#10
Sorry, I know Ed and find him to be extremely knowledgable and his techniques absolutely correct in some specific situations. But each to his own. You're not training Rally or musical freestyle, you're training police k9's and top level ScH and dog sport competitors.

Believe it or not, if a suspect attempts to beat my dog during an apprehension, the temperament better be there to take the abuse. I am not promoting abusing your dog so that it can withstand this treatment, I am saying that in very specific areas, a stable temperament in a working dog must be able to be proven.
 

IliamnasQuest

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#11
Hi Res, and congratulations on getting a new pup!

Schutzhund training can be a lot of fun but also very intensive. There are a lot of varying ideas on how to train for it. You'll find anywhere from the extreme in force training (I attended a Sch seminar once where the guy explained how he used a sharpened prong collar and laughed when he described the blood squirting out) to very positive, motivational styles. It, of course, is up to you how to train your dog. Personally I have found that highly motivational methods are extremely effective with the German shepherds and I've found little reason to use much in the way of correction. If a person is willing to be dedicated and patient in their training then they can go a long way without having to resort to force with this breed.

The shepherd site has a lot of information and a lot of people who train pretty forcefully - but you can also find those who don't.

I personally am not impressed with Frawley (leerburg) .. he offers some positive motivation methods but regresses quickly into force-based training. Some of his recommendations are downright abusive. Unfortunately he is popular with a lot of people who want quick results. He produces a large number of litters of shepherds and basically makes a lot of money promoting his dogs and his methods - and quick results, regardless of the type of relationship you end up with - is his money-maker.

He will recommend to you that you don't socialize your dog, that you don't allow others to interact with your dog so that your dog only focuses on you. I've read where he recommends to keep your dog crated and take it out only for training. Well, I suppose if a dog is merely a piece of property and not an emotional commitment, then that's what people do. But I think most of us have a better relationship with our dogs than that. Strict obedience does not equal good relationship.

Anyway, like I said it's your choice what you choose. I really recommend Sheila Booth's book "Schutzhund Obedience: Training in Drive" as well as her "Purely Positive Training" book. Sheila has experience in muliple venues including schutzhund (she had a dog earn a 298 out of 300 points - perfect scores in both tracking and protection), competition obedience (through utility), and agility (with a agility championship on one dog). So she has a nicely rounded group of credentials and uses highly motivational methods.

Good luck, and again congrats on the new puppy!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
 
G

GSDluver4lyfe

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#12
He will recommend to you that you don't socialize your dog, that you don't allow others to interact with your dog so that your dog only focuses on you. I've read where he recommends to keep your dog crated and take it out only for training. Well, I suppose if a dog is merely a piece of property and not an emotional commitment, then that's what people do. But I think most of us have a better relationship with our dogs than that. Strict obedience does not equal good relationship.

Why do people need to pet your dog? Socialization does not mean people have to be all over your dog, its means your dogs must be able to adapt and behave in different situations. I didnt let anyone pet my dogs when they were pups and rarely allow people to pet them now. In the working dog world socialization is equivelant to neutralization. We neutralize our dogs to the environment.

And if you watch the first 2 minutes of "how to raise a working dog" the first thing Ed says is that throwing a dog in a cage for the first year of his life is useless, and damaging to the dogs socialization period, not to mention stupid.
 
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#13
I have found that schutzhund people keep to themselves. They have their own club and people come and go. I am starting Gabbi on the obedience part of schutzhund and have a postive reinforcement trainer. She is great. I have been told by 3 or 4 members to stop by watch, ask questions and see if it's for Gabbi or not. I work for a police dept that has 9 k9's and they all get their dogs from the same place I am training. They have to train their dogs different than the regular pet. I like Ed's website and find a lot of valuable info. It's up to an idividual how they are going to take advice given. I don't remember the crate my dog 24/7 unless training in the dvd, or if I did I ignored it. I don't know the guy, never plan on meeting the guy, but think he does have knowledge when it comes to working dogs and a passion for them.
I can't believe a club isn't taking new members, that's a bunch of hooey and I wouldn't give them my time either. It's too bad there isn't another club near you. It's a shame.
I just know that Gabbi needs some sort of job or sport.
 

IliamnasQuest

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#14
Why do people need to pet your dog?
Because the reality of most people's lives is that their dogs will have to, at one point or another, interact with other humans. It's a reality that dogs need to go to the vet, go to groomers, be in situations where people are around them, and maybe even go to live with someone else if you are injured or die. The REALITY is that dogs are a part of today's society.

It all depends on your view of what your dog means to you. If you think the dog is only a working dog, a piece of property, and giving that dog the skills to understand and accept other people works against your ability to train the dog, then yes - I suppose that not socializing is what you'd do. But a well-socialized dog CAN be a working dog, and CAN understand the difference between knowing when to socialize and when to work.

I give my dogs the skills to deal with other people by teaching them that people are good - it's okay to want to be petted, and there are times when that's appropriate. There are lots of people successful with their dogs in schutzhund and other sports who do plenty of socialization with their dogs. Yes, if you seclude your dog and don't allow it any interaction with anyone but you, I suppose you're going to get a dog that focuses on you. Funny thing is, I can do that without having to seclude my dog. I can take my dogs anywhere and they're loved by people because they have the skills to understand how to interact properly.

My SAR shepherd was highly socialized, yet worked well when on task. He was definitely a working dog and had a much more important job than a schutzhund dog would. Heck, my therapy dog has a more important job than any "sport" dog, and she couldn't do it without socialization.

I see non-socialization as another of those short cuts, like extensive use of the prong collar and other corrective methods. You can get just as good of a result with a socialized dog, but by depriving your dog of interaction with others you can get faster compliance.

Isn't lack of contact in part how kidnappers brainwash their victims?

As always, my honest opinions - of course, based on 18+ years of training and study ..

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
 

RD

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#15
Dobiegurl,

I believe that socialization is imperative in a dog that needs to make quick decisions and think on its feet. A police service dog needs to be able to differentiate between a threat and a benign encounter, and without socialization it won't be able to.

I hate it when people don't socialize their dog because they want it to be wary of strangers. If it's hard-wired to be suspicious of strangers, it will be. If it's going to be sociable, it will be. I have a very social Border Collie, but he is also quite protective. If I had locked him up because he wanted to interact with strangers and I wanted him to be wary, he wouldn't know what is normal human behavior and what is a threat. He could attack the UPS guy bringing in a package. He could attack an old friend or family member for giving me a hug. 5 minutes prior to the attack he might have been loving on the person. This is why so many people think their dogs have gone insane when really, the dog is just confused. Often times friendly dogs like this will fall all over a person one minute, and bite them the next due to lack of socialization, and people think they've gone mad and have them PTS. Dogs NEED exposure to strangers, if only to know what is "acceptable" behavior from people and what isn't. Socialization won't make a Fila Brasileiro a social butterfly, it'll just make a more stable, confident dog.

It's impossible to "socialize away" the instinct to protect and observe in a dog like a working GSD. So why hide them from the world? You'll only create an insecure, confused dog when you finally bring them out to work.
 
G

GSDluver4lyfe

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#16
Because the reality of most people's lives is that their dogs will have to, at one point or another, interact with other humans. It's a reality that dogs need to go to the vet, go to groomers, be in situations where people are around them, and maybe even go to live with someone else if you are injured or die. The REALITY is that dogs are a part of today's society.

It all depends on your view of what your dog means to you. If you think the dog is only a working dog, a piece of property, and giving that dog the skills to understand and accept other people works against your ability to train the dog, then yes - I suppose that not socializing is what you'd do. But a well-socialized dog CAN be a working dog, and CAN understand the difference between knowing when to socialize and when to work.

I give my dogs the skills to deal with other people by teaching them that people are good - it's okay to want to be petted, and there are times when that's appropriate. There are lots of people successful with their dogs in schutzhund and other sports who do plenty of socialization with their dogs. Yes, if you seclude your dog and don't allow it any interaction with anyone but you, I suppose you're going to get a dog that focuses on you. Funny thing is, I can do that without having to seclude my dog. I can take my dogs anywhere and they're loved by people because they have the skills to understand how to interact properly.

My SAR shepherd was highly socialized, yet worked well when on task. He was definitely a working dog and had a much more important job than a schutzhund dog would. Heck, my therapy dog has a more important job than any "sport" dog, and she couldn't do it without socialization.

I see non-socialization as another of those short cuts, like extensive use of the prong collar and other corrective methods. You can get just as good of a result with a socialized dog, but by depriving your dog of interaction with others you can get faster compliance.

Isn't lack of contact in part how kidnappers brainwash their victims?

As always, my honest opinions - of course, based on 18+ years of training and study ..

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
My dogs ARE socialized, but I guess that depends on your idea of socialization. In some situations, yes I allow people to pet my dogs. At dog shows, at demos, large groups of children (I make it a point to have my dogs totally comfortable and tolerant of children) ect, but not when I'm out trying to do stuff. I see most situations as a training opportunity. You will see me walking up and down the aisles at the petstore with treats or a toy in my hand heeling through heavy distractions. When I stop to pick something up off the shelf, I work on my "stays" you get the point. So when I'm out I'm mostly training, and during training there is no need for petting.

I do not keep my dogs away from people, thats just stupid. Once Ryot was old enough to go out (with vaccines) I took him EVERYWHERE with me. He's good with people (especially kids, he just lays on the floor and is so gently, not the little beast I'm used to :p ), but does not expect anything from them.

People who lock their dogs up to make them more defensive, is just looking for a lawsuit and an unstable not to mention fearful dog.

I dont know where all this "lock your dog up and shun them from the world" talk came from anyways. I never said kept my dogs away from the world. Now that would create a great CPP dog, :rolleyes: .

FYI: I dont even consider a Schutzhund dog a real working dog. I find my S&R work to be much more demanding and important and stressful on the dog, so your little comment didnt affect me in the least. :)
 
W

whatszmatter

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#17
Ed sent me my first clicker, and told me to use it. There is a lot of misconceptions about him on the net as well, I find it funny that a lot of people have said don't listen to him, he's downright abusive!!!. I can fairly assume that you haven't read too much on his board, and haven't read anything too recently. Contrary to popular belief, he doesn't breed that much anymore, he mostly sells equipment and videos. He had two litters at the end of last year, of which he kept almost all of them back for himself, he did not sell them to make money.

His views on other dogs and people are too very often misunderstood. The reason for not letting other people pet your dog is not a dumb thing to do. THere is a huge difference in not socializing and not letting people pet your puppy or dog. Being around people and letting every tom dick and harry on the street come stick their face in your pups face and grab their ears and roll them around on the ground is not a good idea, especially when raising a working dog.

I've never had a dog that wasn't extremely stable around all people whenever where ever. 4th parades, firework shows, county fairs, home depot, menards, walking down the street, etc, EVER. and I don't let strangers pet my dogs. ON the other hand, He's one of the first to tell you that if you have a fearful or shy dog, that everyone passing you on the street should be tossing treats at the dog, and when it can be done safely giving treats and petting it as well, it depends on the dog.

As a working dog you have it imprinted that people are just people, they are nuetral. They aren't something to be sought out, or shyed away from. They can't have it imprinted that every stranger on the street has treats or fun things for them when they're out doing an area search. They also can't have it imprinted that they need to submit to every stranger on the street as well, which happens when everyone is towering over them and sticking their faces in theirs.

the dog issue is also misunderstood as well. If you ever care to read more he often says that if you get an 8 week old, it shouldn't be around other dogs much till 5 months or so. WHy does he say this? cause if you care to raise a working dog, and your turn the puppy loose with older dogs all the time, things can happen. This puppy that you want to grow into a confident, thinking its the ruler of the world dog, will be put in its place by other dogs. It will also bond with the other dogs, not you, that's not a good thing. Being around strange dogs is defineatly a no,no. Interacting anyway, again being around them and interacting with them are two different things. other dogs should be neutral, something not to be desired by a working dog, nor something to be afraid of or aggressive towards.

I can see why he says these things after being around a while. I can see the difference in the dogs and what's happening at home. I can tell when the rules are relaxed or from week to week when a certain dog has been left alone with other dogs a lot when it comes out to train. The really good dogs, well it doesn't really matter, but with other ones, you do have to be careful to bring them up right, with the right confidence, etc. and when you give people the exception they always make it the rule. I give my puppies time with older dogs. Sometimes, not long and not often, and always 100% eyes on them at all times. Tell that to people and suddently they're letting their dogs run with the other ones 100% of the time, and the other dogs do train the younger one. Most times those same peopel write back with the same questions or problems over and over again. My puppy won't listen to me, my puppy seems more bonded to our dog than to us, what am I doing wrong?

There is a method to the madness over there, and when you get into it a lot of it makes sense. I think it is a very good place to learn about Schutzhund. Most people in AMerica probably wouldn't even know what Schutzhund was if it wasn't for Leerburg and his videos. If I wanted to learn about Indy car driving I wouldn't go to a NASCAR track and listen to the drivers there, i'd go to the INDY races. Same thing with Schutzhund, go to where people are doing it. You aren't going to get very good advice about Schutzhund from people that have never trained in it, or titled dogs in it. There are a few on here, but not many. There are 1000 ways to get there, find what your'e comfortable with and do it. You'll always be honing your skills, it never ends.
 
G

GSDluver4lyfe

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#18
Ed sent me my first clicker, and told me to use it. There is a lot of misconceptions about him on the net as well, I find it funny that a lot of people have said don't listen to him, he's downright abusive!!!. I can fairly assume that you haven't read too much on his board, and haven't read anything too recently. Contrary to popular belief, he doesn't breed that much anymore, he mostly sells equipment and videos. He had two litters at the end of last year, of which he kept almost all of them back for himself, he did not sell them to make money.

His views on other dogs and people are too very often misunderstood. The reason for not letting other people pet your dog is not a dumb thing to do. THere is a huge difference in not socializing and not letting people pet your puppy or dog. Being around people and letting every tom dick and harry on the street come stick their face in your pups face and grab their ears and roll them around on the ground is not a good idea, especially when raising a working dog.

I've never had a dog that wasn't extremely stable around all people whenever where ever. 4th parades, firework shows, county fairs, home depot, menards, walking down the street, etc, EVER. and I don't let strangers pet my dogs. ON the other hand, He's one of the first to tell you that if you have a fearful or shy dog, that everyone passing you on the street should be tossing treats at the dog, and when it can be done safely giving treats and petting it as well, it depends on the dog.

As a working dog you have it imprinted that people are just people, they are nuetral. They aren't something to be sought out, or shyed away from. They can't have it imprinted that every stranger on the street has treats or fun things for them when they're out doing an area search. They also can't have it imprinted that they need to submit to every stranger on the street as well, which happens when everyone is towering over them and sticking their faces in theirs.

the dog issue is also misunderstood as well. If you ever care to read more he often says that if you get an 8 week old, it shouldn't be around other dogs much till 5 months or so. WHy does he say this? cause if you care to raise a working dog, and your turn the puppy loose with older dogs all the time, things can happen. This puppy that you want to grow into a confident, thinking its the ruler of the world dog, will be put in its place by other dogs. It will also bond with the other dogs, not you, that's not a good thing. Being around strange dogs is defineatly a no,no. Interacting anyway, again being around them and interacting with them are two different things. other dogs should be neutral, something not to be desired by a working dog, nor something to be afraid of or aggressive towards.

I can see why he says these things after being around a while. I can see the difference in the dogs and what's happening at home. I can tell when the rules are relaxed or from week to week when a certain dog has been left alone with other dogs a lot when it comes out to train. The really good dogs, well it doesn't really matter, but with other ones, you do have to be careful to bring them up right, with the right confidence, etc. and when you give people the exception they always make it the rule. I give my puppies time with older dogs. Sometimes, not long and not often, and always 100% eyes on them at all times. Tell that to people and suddently they're letting their dogs run with the other ones 100% of the time, and the other dogs do train the younger one. Most times those same peopel write back with the same questions or problems over and over again. My puppy won't listen to me, my puppy seems more bonded to our dog than to us, what am I doing wrong?

There is a method to the madness over there, and when you get into it a lot of it makes sense. I think it is a very good place to learn about Schutzhund. Most people in AMerica probably wouldn't even know what Schutzhund was if it wasn't for Leerburg and his videos. If I wanted to learn about Indy car driving I wouldn't go to a NASCAR track and listen to the drivers there, i'd go to the INDY races. Same thing with Schutzhund, go to where people are doing it. You aren't going to get very good advice about Schutzhund from people that have never trained in it, or titled dogs in it. There are a few on here, but not many. There are 1000 ways to get there, find what your'e comfortable with and do it. You'll always be honing your skills, it never ends.
:hail:
 

RD

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#19
I don't understand how you think that dogs who have had positive interactions with people view them all as playmates, Whatz. My dog was extensively socialized and FED by strangers from day one. I can walk him in the middle of a crowd and he doesn't even bother looking at them. If someone initiates contact and there's nothing better for him to do, he'll greet them.

I do train my dog to "submit to" (I call it tolerate) people who stand over him. The alternative would be never allowing this to happen and having a dog that may snarl and bite if someone does that. Hmm, yeah, that's really what I want to represent working dogs.

Interaction with people cannot be avoided, I feel that the dog should be prepared for it. My dog is protective and drivey as hell, but I'd feel perfectly comfortable turning him loose in a room full of excited children. He's been taught that people standing over him IS a neutral event. It's happened so much in his lifetime that he no longer thinks anything of it. He knows the difference between a true act of aggression and normal human behavior because he's observed and interacted with them for 2 years.

Just as you don't understand where the idea that working people lock their dogs away, I don't understand the notion that all dogs that have been socialized are obsessed with interacting with random people on the street. I also can't help but wonder if keeping a dog from having positive interactions with people is a lazy way out of training good manners around people.
 

Sunnierhawk0

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#20
I would just like to add this to the topic, and Im just using this as a example:

Everyone knows I show Rottweilers ( big surprise!) Anyways, there is this dog that is currently out on the Tx curcuit, that has been trained in SCH from *4* months old. Rumor has it, and I beleive the sources, that the dog was NEVER trained in obedieince/socializaed or anything of the type. Well now they are trying to the show the dog, and he tried to attack any human/dog that walks by him. He even was sucessful in biting the nose of my bitches littermate at one show. The dog is totally out of control and has even tried to go after its handler in the ring.

This really has nothing to do with the OP, except that I hope you find the right trainer , and do it the proper way . I beleive everyone on this forum can give you pointers and guide you in the right direction.
 

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