S/n okay for pets, but not for people?

[RD]

#1 is health testing - Have you done it? Will you do it?
.

:hail:I'd like to know this, too. Titles and showing and trialing aside, are these dogs physically sound? To me, testing for known hereditary defects in the breed is the bare minimum someone should do before breeding. Dogs can't chose who they mate with, so it's your responsibility to make sure that you breed healthy domestic animals. This isn't nature at all, it's humans playing god (especially with these toy breeds) and I think all breeders and wannabe breeders should realize that.

Are they decent canine citizens? Meaning no major fear or aggression problems. Are they trained to behave nicely and be an ambassador to their breed? Are they of sound temperament? Do they do anything besides sit inside and warm the sofa? (they're companion animals, so do they do therapy work? or obedience? agility?)

I understand what it's like to want a puppy from your own dogs. I love Eve like nothing else, and I'd love to have a puppy or two out of her someday, but only if she's a sound specimen and only if I think those puppies will contribute something to the breed besides just being more dogs. I also have to deal with the fact that should I ever decide to breed her, I could lose her. Are you prepared to lose your puppies? What about your bitch? It can happen, and it does happen more than you'd think.

 

[adojrts]

I agree, go work in a shelter for nothing less than a year, hold those dogs and look into their eyes as they recieve the needles. Btw they get TWO shots, one to paralyse them, so they don't bounce around after they receive the kill shot (ya know it upset so many people to see death throes, which is why Vets started giving the first shot???) So the animal can't move, doesn't mean its body isn't going through the dead throes.

And you have no right to breed unless you have done some SERIOUS rescue work first......... and that is my opinion.

 

[noludoru]

If you have to have a lisence to drive, get married, work in many skilled trades, why not a lisence to procreate?

:hail:

The above statement is why no one would want me to be the Evil Dictator Of The World. The population would go down quite drastically, among other things.

As far as S/N goes... it is a personal decision. I think there are MANY factors you need to be looking at--not silly things like how you would want grandkids from your pups. (No doubt they would be special to you... but more special than Didi is? More special than another shelter pup would be?) You want to have a good look at the pros and cons for both you and your dog... need to think of the AGE of the dog in question as well... some large breeds (IMO) should not be speutered early.

The most important thing? How responsible you are. If someone is responsible enough to keep one or several intact dogs, then all the more power to them. I got Middie neutered for several reasons (one of the big ones being his marking behavior) one of them being that I am not ready for the responsibility of owning an intact dog capable of breeding. I would never be absolved of my guilt if I were the cause of a litter.. that would be something to regret till the day I died. Not to mention that I have the male, so I wouldn't be able to do a darn thing about it if the person with the female wanted to keep the puppies--or GOD FORBID sell them or something. I would be solely responsible if the bitch died, if there was something wrong with those pups, and if they went to bad homes.

Juicy, other posters have said it, and I'm not attacking you, hon... but to breed your dogs would be a crime in my eyes. Too many unwanted pups in shelters already, and a litter would cost you too much. Not to mention their breeding... aren't they puppymill dogs?

 

[ihartgonzo]

Personally I feel like I could keep my dogs from mating if I wanted to, and it really is uncall for the surgery, and I although I can lose my dog and her pups from a pregnancy, atleast thats NATURE'S call, not mines, but I would really like to have an offspring from my dogs, just like a parent would like a grandchild.

That's the point... you FEEL that you could keep your dogs from mating, if you wanted to. Well, I hate to say it, but accidents happen. People lose their dogs. It can happen within seconds. I'm sure no responsible dog owner plans on their dog getting lost, but it still happens, to many people. If during that time, your dog impregnates another or your bitch is impregnated, you're out of luck. That is just one reason to spay/neuter for safety, because in our society where huge amounts of people and their pets live very close together and many people lose their pets, it only takes about 10 minutes and you've got a litter!

Both of my dogs are neutered because I had no other choice. The rescues I adopted both of them from require it, and I completely, whole-heartedly support them in that. They want to end the cycle of abandonement. And even if I was not required to neuter them, I would, anyway. I can look at my dogs... without bias.... and see that, despite how awesome both of them are, and despite how much I ADORE them, they would not add to their breed. Gonzo has physical faults, behavior issues, and whacky herding drive. Fozzie is a mixed breed, and breeding him to any other dog would be a complete crap-shoot.

I don't think you should spay or neuter your dogs to please ANYONE. The fact is, they are YOUR dogs. I would rather you spayed and neutered your dogs for OTHER DOGS. Dogs that are dying homeless, everywhere, in our country... who deserve loving homes just as much as your own dogs do.

Unless you plan on breeding reputably, and actually adding something to the breed, I hate to say it but you are adding to the problem; which is overpopulation. I always try to make choices that I would like others to make. Going along with that, imagine if everyone who loved their pet dogs, bred them. That's about an average of 5 more dogs, per family, who owns pet dogs... which equals a huge excess of dogs! Just think about it.

I don't feel that you can even compare spaying/neutering people to dogs. It's like comparing adopting children to adopting dogs, which is probably THE MOST annoying arguement, IMO. I cannot stand it when people say, "Well, if adopting dogs is so great, why don't you adopt children?". First off, I most likely will not have kids. Second, dogs are PETS. People have their own free will... and children are not murdered in orphanages. People are, by law, supposed to be in control of their pets and what they do - which includes breeding them! If you female is killed or her puppies killed in childbirth, I do not feel that is nature's call. You bred her. You are responsible for keeping her safe, and that burden is on you. Bringing living, breathing, feeling lives into this world is not something that should be taken lightly, by anyone.

 

[elegy]

here's the bottom line: dogs are not people. people are not dogs.

that's all that needs to be said.

 

[puppydog]

Sigh! Please go and do some research on the bitches reproductive cycle of a bitch before you tell me that it does no damage to keep them in tact.

 

[Lilavati]

There's a huge gap between feelings and practicality, and for that matter right and wrong here.

Will I be sad when Sarama is spayed? Well, slightly. I will have forever taken from her a part of what she is as a female dog. However, unlikle a human being, she will never KNOW that she has lost something. And she will be at less risk for diseases, will not have to be shut up (which she HATED when she came into season before we could get a place on the wait list). Not to mention that she didn't seem to enjoy being in season at all anyway . . . she went utterly loopy for 3 weeks.

Would I like Sarama puppies? Of COURSE I would. I like puppies, I love my dog, I'd love to see what she'd have. Will I let her have some? NO. Not only is she a mix breed, and there are FAR too many of those in the world as it is, unwanted and unloved, but I know NOTHING about her heritage. Nothing at all. Not a thing. She's healthy, but I have no idea what her parents were like. And I have no idea what recessive traits she carries. No matter what she was bred to, I'd be in for BIG surprises with the puppies. And she wouldn't have just one, would she? She'd have a litter, that I'd have to find homes for . . . good responsible homes that would care for them for life. I can't be sure I'd find that, especially with mixed breed puppies.

So, yeah, I have sentimental feelings about the issue. But I have enough common sense, and respect for my dog and her hypothetical puppies, that she will be spayed as soon as we come up on the list . . . grumble . . . grumble . . .

 

[FoxyWench]

the fact that your saying this and stating you couold prevent it "if you wanted to" sickens me...

none of your dogs are good specimines, youve lost puppies in the past and if you loose a female "well thats nature" NO its NOT, humans have created the breeds you see before you and in that WE have created the problems that cause certain breeds to have difficulty...
if you loose your female in labor (or the litter), in a case like this, lack of testing and knowledge of its genetic lines, its YOUR fault, dont try and pass the blame off as somehting "natural" no, YOU let your dog get pregnant and your let her go through delivery its YOUR fault if your dog and her puppies die, if you cant accept the blame you shouldnt even be thinking about the possibility of breeding your dog...especially onoes with genetic problems and from PUPPY STORES!

to say "ehh its ok if she dies in labor because its "natures way"" is insanity...makes me wonder how much you realy care about your dogs...

if your daughter got pregnant and was told, if you have this child you WILL die, would you encorage, no PUSH her to carry that baby...could you stand at her bedside while she gives birth and DIES and think "oh well thats just "natures way"" ?

sickening!

while there are many people out there responsibile enough to keep thier pets intact for whatever reason, these people must be willing to take every precaution to keep thier dogs from producing a litter...you you say its because of reasons like the risk of surgery, but in reality its your selfish want to have one of your dogs puppies...because you clearly state in your post...if you wanted to prevent it your fairly sure you could...but you want a puppy...its like a grandkid...*rolls eyes*
this is IRRESPONSIBLE ownership...

spay and neuter is a personal choice, however if you cant accept the responsibility not only for the risk your taking wiht the life of the puppies and your own girl, but also with the lives your now responsible for killing at shelters, then you shouldnt have a choice in my personal opinion...

and dont compare dogs and humans in terms of "well you dont encorage your kid to be spayed so why should i get my dog spayed" your grasping for straws to justify the fact that you either already have or plan to breed your sub par or puppymill dog to keep a puppy and make a few bucks off the rest...assuming they survive the birth.

 

[Gempress]

here's the bottom line: dogs are not people. people are not dogs.

that's all that needs to be said.

Amen to that.

If you have to have a lisence to drive, get married, work in many skilled trades, why not a lisence to procreate?

I think that idea is absolutely disgusting. Seriously.

Who decides if a person is "worthy" of breeding? Do we just sterilize the retarded or the criminals? Wait, we should probably take the people with genetic diseases out of the gene pool, too. Wouldn't hurt to clear out the mental disorders as well. And those living in poverty.....they don't have enough money to give a kid a good life anyway.

Blue, I think I remember you mentioning several times that you have had problems with dyslexia, ADD and depression. How would you feel if you were denied the right to have children because some law deemed you "unworthy" because of it?

And what should we do to those people who have children illegally? Forced abortion?

 

[LappieLover]

To be honest, I think there are just as many health reasons to keep a dog intact as there are reasons to spay or neuter.

I know in the breed of dog that I have, females who are spayed before 6 months of age tend to be taller, grow a profuse, soft coat that is incorrect for the breed, and also tend to have more temperment issues (ie being more snappy and less people oriented).

Being spayed or neutered can cause health problems and can aggravate certain types of cancers in dogs/bitches just as being neutered/spayed can also prevent certain types of cancers.

HOWEVER- before I'm crucified here, I think that ALL PETS should be spayed or neutered. By pets I mean dogs that are not working, sporting, or show animals. Animals that by definition have only one job, and that job is to be loved by their person.

I think that the best and most compelling reason for people to spay and neuter their pet animals is to keep the animal population under control. Facing facts, millions of dogs and cats are put to sleep every day because there are too many pets and not enough homes for them.

Many of these animals are pure bred, and many were the product of someone's "feeling" like breeding their dog. I wonder how that person would "feel" if they knew that the puppies of their puppy were being put to sleep on some cold table...

That's the kind of feeling I hope that I never have to bear.

Breeding isn't all fun and games, even when done correctly. Even if both parents are genetically tested for ailments, the puppies can still come down with them.

Some congenital diseases a breeder can't test for, and the puppies born from healthy parents are still sick.

Sometimes bitches die in whelp.

Sometimes they'll eat their entire litter.

Sometimes puppies are born with out bones in their bodies, or with their brains outside of their skulls.

Not pretty. Not for the faint of heart and NOT WORTH IT for a PET.

Just my two cents.

 

[Laurelin]

Okay some points to touch on.

Dogs are not people nor do they have the same 'rights' as people. Dogs have no right to breed. What happens to a dog and what is best for the dog is decided upon by it's owner. As an owner of a dog, it's up to you to decide what medical procedures are best for your dog, among other things.

Also, keeping dogs intact does not equate to being irresponsible. Allowing intact dogs to breed is irresponsible. You can keep intact dogs without problem, and I see legitimate reasons to keep some dogs intact. There is nothing wrong with it. There is something wrong with not preventing pregnancies. If you have looked at all the information regarding spaying and neutering pros and cons AND can keep an intact dog without it reproducing, then I think it's fine to keep an intact dog. After all, other than yo the main reason we spay and neuter animals is for convenience. There's nothing wrong with that. It eliminates the worries of pregnancies.

I've had intact dogs my entire life- Trey's actually the only male dog we've ever neutered and that's because it was in his contract. All our female dogs have been spayed though both Rose and Nikki were spayed after a couple of seasons, though Rose was spayed right after we got her. We have an intact dog right now- Beau, and we even kept our old mutt intact his entire life... No puppies ever. No slips, no oops, no intentions of breeding. In my opinion, if the dog is not proven then there's no need to breed. Way too many dogs in shelters right now to produce pets.

And in my opinion if you can't assure that your dogs will not breed, then you have no business keeping a dog intact. Just get the dog spayed so it's easier on it and on you.

 

[adojrts]

One other point I would like to make is...........ta da you can forget about the Natural way concerning procreating. We humans as animals have really screwed up on that somewhere along the way for our own species. In nature how fast or how many animals are reproduced completely depends on the food source and the availablity of that source. Availability of food controls the population in nature. In humans that has gone by the wayside, because we keep reproducing even when we can't feed ourselves or our children. Which is very evident world wide and in some areas more than others. Sadly that has also crossed over to the pet population because of US. So nature has stopped having the ability to control us and we therefore have lost the ability to control the procreating of certain species that are DEPENDANT of us. Which we also caused.

Gezzz did that make sense???

 

[Juicy]

A couple key points are:

a) people can be educated about overpopulation

b) cats and dogs have litters. most people do not

c) people are the key cause of the high pet population. this is one way of setting things right

d) 'extra' pets will be put to sleep. people will not.

but you've raised some interesting points and I think the best thing is for people to be responsible.

Thanks, I agree with the things you mention too. There is a major difference between a litter and birthing one child, especially if its a larger breed which tend to have than just that ''one'' offspring you're looking forward too.

 

[Juicy]

I honestly find your view very ignorant.

Frankly many people don't watch their children,
Kids at younger ages such as 12 do have babies.
Unlike dogs though they keep the child, put it
up adoption, into a foster home etc.
Do we kill those children???

The comparison is way out there in my opinion.
Dogs do not eventually grow up and take care of
themselves now do they? They rely on us humans
to take care of them. Its our responsibility as
a society to stop these deaths.

Do you know how man owners have said "I can
control my dog, it will not happen to us".
Sure, then they have an "oops" litter a week
later. Fact is the majority of owners, even
well meaning do have "oops".

To even ask this question you need to do some
volunteer work at an overcrowded shelter, maybe
you should even help put tons of dogs to sleep
every day, and then come back on here on repost.
If you posted the same thing I would say you
are a monster quite frankly.

I will leave the "breed my dog" debate to other
people, its amazing that you have such a huge
amounts of posts on here but have not seen
that conversation a million times on this forum...
It sounds like you just want to make some money
breeding.

I take in consideration of the posts on breeding, and I also take in consideration the bashing it sometimes spurrs up as well. And please tell me when did I ever mention anything about making a profit of breeding my dogs, or that I was going to breed?

Even is I wanted to breed....
A.) Pepe is neutered.
b.) Didi is old & ill.
c.) Princess could be bred if I wanted to, but I don't think I would consider having another doxie, even a mix.

I have wanted a puppy from Didi when she was younger in the past, even if it was a mutt, because I always thought when it was Didi's time to go, I'll still have a little bit of her with me.

Actually when she did had an oops pregnancy with m dog Lucky, I'm not going to lie, I was happy to of had a puppy from my dogs. And it upsets me even more now that the puppy did not make it since Lucky's passing. I always thought about how it would of been for Didi to have a daugther and to of still have a part of Lucky with us still. I know its two different dogs, but I just have the idea that your child is a part of you.........or puppy is a part of the parents. Just the way I was raised thinking.

 

[milos_mommy]

A couple key points are:

a) people can be educated about overpopulation

b) cats and dogs have litters. most people do not

c) people are the key cause of the high pet population. this is one way of setting things right

d) 'extra' pets will be put to sleep. people will not.

but you've raised some interesting points and I think the best thing is for people to be responsible.

exactly.

 

[Cheetah]

Heh, I'd go get sterilized if I could... I'm not planning on ever wanting children. My pets take that spot. I understand dogs better than human children lmao...

 

[Sadie'smama]

To each his own....however, I will ALWAYS spay/neuter my pets. Why? I've been told that 800 cats and dogs are put to sleep every HOUR in the US. Why intentionally bring more into the world that are just going to be killed? Ok, lets say a person places all their pups in homes. Are they good homes? Do the dogs end up being chained outside for the rest of their lives? Do they end up in a shelter? Wouldn't you feel terrible to find out that one of your pups ending up having a horrible life? Also, if you have 5 in a litter and you find homes for those 5, well that means that 5 animals in a shelter will never get out.

I don't mean this directed to the OP, just in general. And just my 2 cents.

 

[Juicy]

:hail:

The above statement is why no one would want me to be the Evil Dictator Of The World. The population would go down quite drastically, among other things.

As far as S/N goes... it is a personal decision. I think there are MANY factors you need to be looking at--not silly things like how you would want grandkids from your pups. (No doubt they would be special to you... but more special than Didi is? More special than another shelter pup would be?) You want to have a good look at the pros and cons for both you and your dog... need to think of the AGE of the dog in question as well... some large breeds (IMO) should not be speutered early.

The most important thing? How responsible you are. If someone is responsible enough to keep one or several intact dogs, then all the more power to them. I got Middie neutered for several reasons (one of the big ones being his marking behavior) one of them being that I am not ready for the responsibility of owning an intact dog capable of breeding. I would never be absolved of my guilt if I were the cause of a litter.. that would be something to regret till the day I died. Not to mention that I have the male, so I wouldn't be able to do a darn thing about it if the person with the female wanted to keep the puppies--or GOD FORBID sell them or something. I would be solely responsible if the bitch died, if there was something wrong with those pups, and if they went to bad homes.

Juicy, other posters have said it, and I'm not attacking you, hon... but to breed your dogs would be a crime in my eyes. Too many unwanted pups in shelters already, and a litter would cost you too much. Not to mention their breeding... aren't they puppymill dogs?

Thanks for understanding. It just upsets me sometimes that people think that my way of thinking (for wanting an offspring) is wrong. I always just felt that there is some sort of special bond you could get from having pups from your dog, than you do from an unrelated dog from a shetler. I'm not breeding them, I never did state I was going to. And like you mentioned and I posted my dogs are in no state to even breed, let alone the cost, testing, ect. I was just stating my HONEST opinion on what I think about the whole as a pet owner you SHOULD s/n your pet. But thanks for your input.

 

[Juicy]

the fact that your saying this and stating you couold prevent it "if you wanted to" sickens me...

none of your dogs are good specimines, youve lost puppies in the past and if you loose a female "well thats nature" NO its NOT, humans have created the breeds you see before you and in that WE have created the problems that cause certain breeds to have difficulty...
if you loose your female in labor (or the litter), in a case like this, lack of testing and knowledge of its genetic lines, its YOUR fault, dont try and pass the blame off as somehting "natural" no, YOU let your dog get pregnant and your let her go through delivery its YOUR fault if your dog and her puppies die, if you cant accept the blame you shouldnt even be thinking about the possibility of breeding your dog...especially onoes with genetic problems and from PUPPY STORES!

to say "ehh its ok if she dies in labor because its "natures way"" is insanity...makes me wonder how much you realy care about your dogs...

if your daughter got pregnant and was told, if you have this child you WILL die, would you encorage, no PUSH her to carry that baby...could you stand at her bedside while she gives birth and DIES and think "oh well thats just "natures way"" ?

sickening!

while there are many people out there responsibile enough to keep thier pets intact for whatever reason, these people must be willing to take every precaution to keep thier dogs from producing a litter...you you say its because of reasons like the risk of surgery, but in reality its your selfish want to have one of your dogs puppies...because you clearly state in your post...if you wanted to prevent it your fairly sure you could...but you want a puppy...its like a grandkid...*rolls eyes*
this is IRRESPONSIBLE ownership...

spay and neuter is a personal choice, however if you cant accept the responsibility not only for the risk your taking wiht the life of the puppies and your own girl, but also with the lives your now responsible for killing at shelters, then you shouldnt have a choice in my personal opinion...

and dont compare dogs and humans in terms of "well you dont encorage your kid to be spayed so why should i get my dog spayed" your grasping for straws to justify the fact that you either already have or plan to breed your sub par or puppymill dog to keep a puppy and make a few bucks off the rest...assuming they survive the birth.

Well sorry but I look at it differently. Both dying from a sugery and birth are horrible things to deal with. But I'll find myself having more guilt from having my dog submitted to a risky procedure thats not even needed and then die then of the dog giving birth and dying. Sorry again thats just my opinion!!

And again I'm not breeding them..........and again its not a money issue either. I could care less about making money of my dogs' puppies, if they were to have puppies, I rather have them go into a good home for free, than a bad home for x amount of money.

 

[Juicy]

There's a huge gap between feelings and practicality, and for that matter right and wrong here.

Will I be sad when Sarama is spayed? Well, slightly. I will have forever taken from her a part of what she is as a female dog. However, unlikle a human being, she will never KNOW that she has lost something. And she will be at less risk for diseases, will not have to be shut up (which she HATED when she came into season before we could get a place on the wait list). Not to mention that she didn't seem to enjoy being in season at all anyway . . . she went utterly loopy for 3 weeks.

Would I like Sarama puppies? Of COURSE I would. I like puppies, I love my dog, I'd love to see what she'd have. Will I let her have some? NO. Not only is she a mix breed, and there are FAR too many of those in the world as it is, unwanted and unloved, but I know NOTHING about her heritage. Nothing at all. Not a thing. She's healthy, but I have no idea what her parents were like. And I have no idea what recessive traits she carries. No matter what she was bred to, I'd be in for BIG surprises with the puppies. And she wouldn't have just one, would she? She'd have a litter, that I'd have to find homes for . . . good responsible homes that would care for them for life. I can't be sure I'd find that, especially with mixed breed puppies.

So, yeah, I have sentimental feelings about the issue. But I have enough common sense, and respect for my dog and her hypothetical puppies, that she will be spayed as soon as we come up on the list . . . grumble . . . grumble . . .

Thanks alot for this post, this is how I feel as well. I know the problems there is to breed my dogs as well, never said I was going, thought about in the past before knowing better about the risks, ect and always money to if they had a big litter and complications that might occur would also be an issue, but I still always had a feeling that it would be nice to of if the money was there, they were healthy, ect....to of had one of their pups.