Rescued unsocialized dog - considering shock collar

[Dekka]

Actually Irish Setters are NOT one of the highest energy breeds. I know quite a few, and really they are no 'worse' than any other setter/spaniel breed. (the irish red and whites I have met are a little on the 'high' side though)

If you look at the people replying in this thread, they have high high energy breeds. (BCs JRTs, Koolies, etc) You are getting advice from people who have the experience, some of the responders in this thread have trained and competed dogs to high levels in dog sports. I suggest you try to read it as advice. You do come across as someone who is trying to tell us that we are all wrong. Considering that you don't know us, ok I can see that its hard to change your opinions based on strangers.

However many people on this forum have far more experience than you typically find on forums.

You did want to put a shock collar on your dog so he could go to the dog park. You implied he NEEDED the dog park. So you can see where we would get the "having issues with energy levels"

 

[Taqroy]

You did want to put a shock collar on your dog so he could go to the dog park. You implied he NEEDED the dog park. So you can see where we would get the "having issues with energy levels"

I think this is where a lot of the back and forth is coming from in this thread - your posts sounded like your dog absolutely HAS to go to the dog park or all hell would break loose. Thus the storm of over-exercising advice followed by the defensive posturing etc etc.

I do hope you'll take the advice given for the humping behavior - we managed to stay on topic for most of a page.

 

[Danefied]

MafiaPrincess, is this part where you punish me for "not listening" by extrapolating way more data than I actually provided --OR-- mistaking my sincerity for disdain or dismissal? I pretty much heard "your dog needs as much exercise as any other breed (WRONG)" and "you don't have experience with dogs (WRONG)" --OR-- "I have completely misunderstood you (CORRECT)".

1) My dog knows when he is going for a run (I take my bike down) and when he is going for a walk. He reacts very differently to the two. I'm sure he loves to run as much as many other dogs would - but that is completely irrelevant to how much he loves it or why he loves it. The point is, HE LOVES IT.

2) I DO appreciate the concern, as it has introduced me to a concept I had not considered before (managing his higher energy levels as a result of exercise). I've also mentioned putting him through a basic obedience course and starting agility training.

3) Irish Setters are amongst the highest in exercise requirements and energy levels; it is the foremost item mentioned in any website/article about them. Ignoring this would be irresponsible.

4) I never once mentioned having difficulty managing his energy. I have actually indicated otherwise in a post that I enjoy his rambunctiousness and playfullness. It's clear that you have completely misread all of my posts and took away a completely different meaning. Seriously, I don't run my dog because "he has too much energy". I am not considering a shock collar because "he has too much energy".

Does that clear up any of the things you have gotten resoundingly wrong?

Wow, okay... time to step back.
You came on here asking for advice on a humping issue.
Normally when an owner presents a problem behavior, most trainers dig deeper knowing that no problem behavior exists in a vaccum.
From your posts - that's all we have to go on, so forgive us for not knowing any information you don't provide - it sounds like you have an exitable dog and you are attempting to manage the extitable behavior with more exercise. (Your words: "finding something that excites him more than humping.")

You then make a couple of statements that raise an eyebrow with more experienced folks.
- Irish Setters are not really a "high" energy breed. Energetic yes, one of the highest energy breeds out there? Not by a long shot.
- You think dealing with dog aggression would be easier than dealing with humping. Again, not by a long shot.
- Taking a new rescue to the dog park. Big no-no by any reputable rescue's standards.
I could go on, but I don't want you to get defensive about having had dogs your whole life and knowing how to read them. My mom is 3 quarters of a century old, has had dogs her whole life and still makes mistakes reading them. I've had dogs MY whole life and am still learning something new from them every day. Having dogs your whole life doesn't mean much truthfully. Open yourself to learning.

I'll reiterate my advice.
1. Find a behavior that is incompatible with humping yet still rewarding for the dog and encourage that behavior instead. Something like "sit" won't work, many dogs can very effectively continue to hump while sitting. You need something that engages his hindquarters in an incompatible way, like tugging or running. He has to UNlearn that muscle memory if you will.
2. Tweak the 3D's with your dog until you have him working in an environment where he WILL take treats or play with a toy. Setters are chow hounds and besides, there is no such thing as an un-food motivated dog. They'd be dead of self-starvation. Find his comfort zone and work from there. Build shared trust and communication, THEN put him in higher excitement situations - slowly.

And post pictures when you can

 

[release the hounds]

This thread sure is entertaining

 

[Dekka]

This thread sure is entertaining

Glad you noticed.

 

[twobadfish]

Glad I could provide some entertainment for you guys. I think I'm going to take my dog for a run now

 

[Aleron]

I have a 1.5 year old (approx) rescued Irish Setter that was neutered a little over a week ago. When we take him to the dog park he humps incessantly. I thought it may have been energy-related but I took him there immediately after a 5 mile run and it seemed to make it worse - he was in hyperhump mode. I HATE punishment but this is one behavior that I absolutely draw the line on and it's my #1 priority right now (aside from putting on 10lbs).

He will grab the dog with his front legs and pin it to the ground sometimes. He isn't aggressive, but it seems like the only thing he wants to do is hump. He is EASILY deterred by dogs with attitude. However dogs that seem to not understand or are very submissive will just roll over like they are playing or just stand there. And they become targets. It's very, very clear my dog isn't playing. I don't even think he knows how to play.

This might be of interest to you:
Dogs In Canada Magazine -- Oh behave: Love and mounting

Which leads me to socialization. I believe he is unsocialized. We suspect he was a stud at a puppy mill and has spent the majority of his life in a cage (vet said his canines are 30%+ worn down from chewing on the metal wires of a cage). I understand he is still adjusting to his new life and I'm trying to be patient but this really drives me over the edge.

I would encourage you not to go wild with imagination about the horrible life this dog may or may not have had prior to you getting him. It seems that "he's a puppy mill dog" is the new "he was abused" when it comes to rescue dogs. I constantly see dogs picked up as strays or surrendered to shelters that people assume are "puppy mill breeding dogs" because they are intact over the age of 4 months or purebreds or girls who look like they could have had a litter. Not sure why he wouldn't still be at the "puppy mill" siring litters if he's only a year old. I suppose it's possible but it isn't necessarily probable. As for the teeth, his teeth might be worn from chewing on a cage or fence or rocks or bones or tennis balls or the wood work of his previous owner's home or.... Some dogs naturally have softer teeth which are more easily damaged and any dog can wear their teeth down pretty quickly if they are power chewers.

I want him to be able to go to the dog park but the humping is unacceptable. I'm considering a shock collar but I want to try other methods. I've read some things on the forums here (time outs, spray bottle) but I'm just skeptical because of how much he is driven to this behavior - especially if he was a stud. When he is running with other dogs you can tell he is just waiting for the opportunity to jump up.

Honestly, being a "stud" would have little to do with it. Some of the worst humpers I have known have been early neuter males who definitely were never bred. And some of the best behaved dogs I have known are intact males who have been bred. Individual dogs can be more or less interested in such activities than others. And he's pretty much a "teenager" right now, which can be one of the most obnoxious times of a young boy dog's life. beyond that, not all dogs are cut out to be dog park dogs. I have seen people and dogs made totally miserable because the owner placed unnecessary worth on the dog having to go to a dog park or play day or daycare.

Now to answer your question about what to do about this problem in specific:

First stop taking him to the dog park, at least for now. Taking a new rescue dog to the dog park before you have done any training or really gotten to know the dog is problematic for several reasons. First off, taking untrained dogs to dog park settings tends to set them up to be rewarded for undesirable behavior such as not coming when they are called and being overly interested in other dogs. Once dogs learn these things, they are not terribly easy to overcome. Secondly, it can take dogs anywhere from 3 weeks to several months to fully adjust to their new home. What he needs most right now is time to get to know you and what is expected in his new life. Take a couple or three months, bond with your new dog through training and routine. Practice a behavior protocol such as one of the many variations of NILIF. Teach your dog a strong recall using motivational methods and long line work away from the dog park. Then maybe try the dog park again, during a low activity time and consider keeping him on a long line. If he shows unacceptable (to you) behavior such as humping or not coming when you call him, immediately take him out of the park. Since he will at that point have a strong foundation with what is expected of him, it shouldn't take him long to understand that he will loose his freedom whenever he participates in X behavior.

 

[twobadfish]

This might be of interest to you:
Dogs In Canada Magazine -- Oh behave: Love and mounting



I would encourage you not to go wild with imagination about the horrible life this dog may or may not have had prior to you getting him. It seems that "he's a puppy mill dog" is the new "he was abused" when it comes to rescue dogs. I constantly see dogs picked up as strays or surrendered to shelters that people assume are "puppy mill breeding dogs" because they are intact over the age of 4 months or purebreds or girls who look like they could have had a litter. Not sure why he wouldn't still be at the "puppy mill" siring litters if he's only a year old. I suppose it's possible but it isn't necessarily probable. As for the teeth, his teeth might be worn from chewing on a cage or fence or rocks or bones or tennis balls or the wood work of his previous owner's home or.... Some dogs naturally have softer teeth which are more easily damaged and any dog can wear their teeth down pretty quickly if they are power chewers.




Honestly, being a "stud" would have little to do with it. Some of the worst humpers I have known have been early neuter males who definitely were never bred. And some of the best behaved dogs I have known are intact males who have been bred. Individual dogs can be more or less interested in such activities than others. And he's pretty much a "teenager" right now, which can be one of the most obnoxious times of a young boy dog's life. beyond that, not all dogs are cut out to be dog park dogs. I have seen people and dogs made totally miserable because the owner placed unnecessary worth on the dog having to go to a dog park or play day or daycare.

Now to answer your question about what to do about this problem in specific:

First stop taking him to the dog park, at least for now. Taking a new rescue dog to the dog park before you have done any training or really gotten to know the dog is problematic for several reasons. First off, taking untrained dogs to dog park settings tends to set them up to be rewarded for undesirable behavior such as not coming when they are called and being overly interested in other dogs. Once dogs learn these things, they are not terribly easy to overcome. Secondly, it can take dogs anywhere from 3 weeks to several months to fully adjust to their new home. What he needs most right now is time to get to know you and what is expected in his new life. Take a couple or three months, bond with your new dog through training and routine. Practice a behavior protocol such as one of the many variations of NILIF. Teach your dog a strong recall using motivational methods and long line work away from the dog park. Then maybe try the dog park again, during a low activity time and consider keeping him on a long line. If he shows unacceptable (to you) behavior such as humping or not coming when you call him, immediately take him out of the park. Since he will at that point have a strong foundation with what is expected of him, it shouldn't take him long to understand that he will loose his freedom whenever he participates in X behavior.

Thank you for the extremely helpful reply :hail:

I agree with you about jumping to conclusions about where he came from. And maybe it's his temperament or breed but he is extremely care-free and overall, confident. Between running him, doing daily training tasks (sit, down, fetch), and using positive behavior modifications, I feel he is turning out to be such a wonderful addition to the family. I came home to my wife Googling "How to mentally challenge your dog" today. I was worried about the strain he might put on her taking care of him for most of the day so he must be making a pretty good impression on her because other than the pawing and claiming inappropriate items as chew toys she has no complaints AND is taking an active role in training him.

So far he has sit, down, and a rough estimate of fetch. Training him has been particularly challenging because even in the home alone, he just isn't very excited about food. The only thing that he won't spit out (while training) is rotisserie chicken (purchased specifically for training him). BUT the good news is his appetite seems to be increasing and is eating pretty much as much food as I give him. He was emaciated and his digestive system was shut down when he wandered in. He is FINALLY gaining weight

I probably can't say enough good things about this dog! As time goes by and I learn more about behavior modification the less I am interested in a shock collar. And seriously, thanks for the helpful advice. I shall follow it all. This weekend I'm going to start doing some long-lead training at the park.

 

[genshes]

Make him work for his food with treat dispensing toys or divide his food into portions to use in training sessions throughout the day.

 

[MafiaPrincess]

Make him work for his food with treat dispensing toys or divide his food into portions to use in training sessions throughout the day.

your siggy lies. There are not dog movies on that site, just block busters.

 

[milos_mommy]

I think the best way to teach a dog to stop humping is to teach them an alternate behavior which they can associate with intense excitement. Something like circling you, carrying a toy (not at the dog park...although some parks do allow tennis balls), or going to target stuff you point at is a good one because those take a lot of mental energy and can take up more time than a a simple "sit" or "paw". Whenever you see your dog looking like he's interested in humping another, right before he starts, give him that command.

I agree this dog probably shouldn't be in a dog park. Probably about 80% of dogs, if not more, don't belong in dog parks. Most dog breeds are not bred with the kind of temperament that allows for them to safely and comfortably play in an enclosed space with 10-30 other dogs. And if I ever hear someone say "I need to be able to take my dog to a dog park" I'm going to say "then don't get a dog"....but it sounds like you have plenty of other outlets for exercising him, so why do you NEED to take him to the park?

 

[Rorschach]

Why is there such a negative connotation associated with parks..? Is it because dog "parks" where a lot of people live are those silly fenced in areas? Sorry... I ask because the dog "park" I have been able to take all of my dogs to (I foster, so I've had my fair share of newbies ) isn't fenced in; it's a long beautiful walk by a ravine, with lots of field space and its "fences" are just tons of trees on either side.

Anyways, I'm probably saying what everyone else has already said, but humping can be a really common behavior fueled by excitement, and it sounds like you have an excitable dog. Have you considered trying a calm approach? Like, some people get to the park and just let Fido off the leash when the dog is already in its "omg omg we're at the paaark!" mode. I usually walk the dog at the park first, until he is behaved on the leash and responding to me, not expressing anxiety or pulling. Once we get to that calm, level state, I let them off the leash. I notice this, compared to just letting them go asap, has better results, and I've dealt with a good amount of problem humpers.

I agree with everyone about the shock collar... Those are outdated and results expected are usually not the ones you get. You can try the e-collar (not the E-collar cone that dogs get after surgery, but an electronic collar that sends a vibration to the dog). It's not painful but simply snaps them out of what they are doing (I have never had to use one, but I have tested them at the store, and they are the equivalent to having a vibrating massage, but at a quicker pulse).

I also agree with a long lead, a calm approach, and patience. I understand it is frustrating to deal with a persistent, belligerent animal, but you can lose trust if your way of "correcting" him is through aggression. He learns from it, too.

 

[AliciaD]

Why is there such a negative connotation associated with parks..? Is it because dog "parks" where a lot of people live are those silly fenced in areas? Sorry... I ask because the dog "park" I have been able to take all of my dogs to (I foster, so I've had my fair share of newbies ) isn't fenced in; it's a long beautiful walk by a ravine, with lots of field space and its "fences" are just tons of trees on either side.

There isn't a dog park around here for me to have my own experience, but I think people objected to taking a new foster to a dog park. Part of the problem with dog parks is that some people really don't understand canine body language, or just don't care, and are irresponsible. A lot of people have posted on here about how their dog was attacked at a dog park. People don't like the anonymity and very public nature of dog parks, they feel there is less control. Unfortunately, you can't assume that every dog there is friendly (or healthy).

Also, for people who have "bad" breeds, like an APBT, they don't bring their dogs to parks because they know that regardless of which dog started the fight, a "bad" breed dog would be blamed.

 

[milos_mommy]

Why is there such a negative connotation associated with parks..? Is it because dog "parks" where a lot of people live are those silly fenced in areas? Sorry... I ask because the dog "park" I have been able to take all of my dogs to (I foster, so I've had my fair share of newbies ) isn't fenced in; it's a long beautiful walk by a ravine, with lots of field space and its "fences" are just tons of trees on either side.

I wouldn't consider that a dog park. I'd just consider that a park that allows dogs. A dog park to me is a park where people wouldn't go if they didn't have a dog. Plenty of state parks here allow dogs, even off leash, and I think many dogs who aren't really appropriate in a "dog park" are perfectly trustworthy off leash in a situation like you state. They might run into some other dogs, and play, but it's not a place people solely go to for the purpose of letting dogs socialize.

If a dog that humps other submissive dogs is in the middle of the woods, trying to hump one other dog, it's pretty easy to distract them or take them to a distance where they are no longer going to try to hump. If they are trying to hump a dog in an acre of fenced area where 25 other dogs are playing and it's just a field, it's going to be hard to prevent that behavior, which is self-rewarding.

ETA: I consider myself very well-versed in dog body language, I've worked with dogs for a number of years, volunteered since I was a kid, have had training on dog body language and fighting, and have taken college courses in animal behavior. That said, it would probably be at least a few months of living with a foster (of any breed) before I felt comfortable taking them to a dog park (unless I knew their history and knew they had safely gone to dog parks before). Same goes for letting them off leash in an unfenced areas. Anyone who's fostered knows that foster dogs take time to "come out of their shell" and plenty off dogs will behave for a few weeks or even months out of a shelter before testing their boundaries.

 

[Linds]

I wouldn't consider that a dog park. I'd just consider that a park that allows dogs. A dog park to me is a park where people wouldn't go if they didn't have a dog.

I disagree, at least dog park is like that and it is a dog park. Called a dog park, set up to be a dog park and is part of a Forest Preserve, but is the only section of that Forest Preserve that allows dogs off leash. And yes, people have to be chased out of there because they decide to start fishing there and it's not allowed....because it's a dog park.

 

[milos_mommy]

I disagree, at least dog park is like that and it is a dog park. Called a dog park, set up to be a dog park and is part of a Forest Preserve, but is the only section of that Forest Preserve that allows dogs off leash. And yes, people have to be chased out of there because they decide to start fishing there and it's not allowed....because it's a dog park.

There are of course, exceptions, but when I talk about a "dog park" in the context of training and socialization, I mean a fenced in area where a number of dogs frequent. And while I am making assumptions based on content, it sounds like that's what the OP is referring to as well...I think it would be a lot easier to monitor/control a dog's humping in a very large, open, less crowded park than it would be in what I consider a "typical" dog park.

 

[Saintgirl]

I have to agree with Danefield and Milosmommy, teach an incompatible behavior otherwise known as Differential Reinforcement of Incompatible Behaviors (DRO). My newest foster has a humping issue, or I should say had. We have mostly extinguished that behavior through positive reinforcement and DRO. He's a 4 yr Saint Bernard who weighs 150lbs. Good boy, heart of gold, was never abused, the ecomony downturn had his owners lose their jobs and home. The downside is that he was never taught a SINGLE command and was not socialized. In 2 weeks he has come MILES! He can sit, he can down, he can wait, he can stay, and he mostly doesn't hump (as I type this I have been interupted because he decided to show me how wrong I am!). His good beahviors are marked and reinforced, his maladaptive behaviors are redirected into a behavior that does not allow for the previous behavior to continue. My advice is baby steps.

Boe does not get put into a situation where he becomes over stimulated. I certainly would not work on these behaviors in the dog park. Too much excitement with a dog who has not fully bonded and trusts me yet. We work on behaviors in a fully controlled environment and as he masters each situation we take the next baby step. He can now play in a group of dogs (4-5) and control his humping behavior. The moment I see him focusing on a certain dog which is followed by humping I recall and work on basic commands. Once he has refocused he is able to play again. All of it is positive. He is rewarded for each command, he is rewarded when is playing.

Take my advice for what it is worth. Sure it requires more work than a shock collar but the end result is the same and our relationship grows even tighter.

 

[lizzybeth727]

teach an incompatible behavior otherwise known as Differential Reinforcement of Incompatible Behaviors (DRO).

Suprisingly, DRO actually stands for Differential Reinforcement of Other Behaviors. The other trainers and I were talking about this just yesterday. Training an incompatible behavior, and using the DRO technique, are actually different techniques. What you described was, in fact, DRO.

 

[Saintgirl]

Ooops! I do know what I meant to say and used DRI instead of DRO, thanks for catching that for me.

 

[twobadfish]

I have to agree with Danefield and Milosmommy, teach an incompatible behavior otherwise known as Differential Reinforcement of Incompatible Behaviors (DRO). My newest foster has a humping issue, or I should say had. We have mostly extinguished that behavior through positive reinforcement and DRO. He's a 4 yr Saint Bernard who weighs 150lbs. Good boy, heart of gold, was never abused, the ecomony downturn had his owners lose their jobs and home. The downside is that he was never taught a SINGLE command and was not socialized. In 2 weeks he has come MILES! He can sit, he can down, he can wait, he can stay, and he mostly doesn't hump (as I type this I have been interupted because he decided to show me how wrong I am!). His good beahviors are marked and reinforced, his maladaptive behaviors are redirected into a behavior that does not allow for the previous behavior to continue. My advice is baby steps.

Boe does not get put into a situation where he becomes over stimulated. I certainly would not work on these behaviors in the dog park. Too much excitement with a dog who has not fully bonded and trusts me yet. We work on behaviors in a fully controlled environment and as he masters each situation we take the next baby step. He can now play in a group of dogs (4-5) and control his humping behavior. The moment I see him focusing on a certain dog which is followed by humping I recall and work on basic commands. Once he has refocused he is able to play again. All of it is positive. He is rewarded for each command, he is rewarded when is playing.

Take my advice for what it is worth. Sure it requires more work than a shock collar but the end result is the same and our relationship grows even tighter.

I don't think it could have been said better than this. These are all issues that I have never dealt with. Since I started actively training my dogs with my two westies I have learned a lot about how to train dogs - but mostly punishment based. For whatever reason it worked but didn't work nearly as well when I tried to apply those concepts to a stray Irish Setter. I learned that he is dependent on me and as such is very eager to do things that are awarded with love and attention (still not very food-motivated).

At the beginning it was very difficult to fully support positive training because with Ronin he doesn't show much of a response to awarded behavior. In fact I think that might be fairly common - and one of the reasons people turn to punishment or harsh punishment. This was also apparently the first time Ronin has been so much a part of a family. He acts like every experience is completely foreign to him but he realizes how awesome they are pretty quickly. He goes everywhere with us and I am pretty certain I'm going to practice agility and take him quail hunting when (or if) I feel he's ready.

But he's come a very long way since I posted this thread so I'd thought I'd share some updates. He doesn't pull on his leash, he can sit, down, crawl, heel, and come. We're still working on his willingness to perform when distracted. He now does well when we are outside in familiar places. He can also ignore cats unless I release him (and I do a decent amount). I have seen him set a cat on two occasions waiting for me to release him. Each time I wait a little longer to release him. The next step I want to take is teaching him to gently retrieve the item when released (not live cats of course (OR dead cats lol)).

He has been doing really well in the house despite me not running him or taking him to the dog park for the past 1.5 weeks. I've been feeding him Orijen mixed with 100% beef for dogs 2-3 times daily. I think he has finally started gaining some weight.

And despite my worst fears, he does rather well off-leash in remote areas. I still won't ever let him off leash in a neighborhood but he does amazing in the woods and desert. And I love that he gets to do almost anything he wants so often. I have the same short whistle each time I call him and usually without calling him verbally he will respond to my whistle unless he's looking for shade or gone to ground.