+R makes dogs "softer"??

[lizzybeth727]

As most of you know, I train service and hearing dogs. My organization gets all of our dogs from shelters and rescues, and trains them using clicker training. We use corrections VERY rarely, and not with every dog. We never use leash corrections, do not yell at dogs, etc.

However, when the dogs move into their new homes with their disabled partners, obviously we don't have complete control of what those people or other people in their household do to "discipline" the dogs. Recently we've had a couple of dogs in households where we suspect the family members yell at the dogs and possibly use other methods of punishment. Also, of course some families yell at each other, which could also scare the dogs. Obviously we're working on solving this, but in the meantime it seems that the dogs have started bad behaviors (one is barking at people that startle him, another is barking at people when in the crate and guarding objects, etc.) that we never saw in all of our evaluations and training with the dogs.

So what we're wondering, then, is if positive reinforcement training teaches dogs that people are NEVER going to punish them.... and then, after a year or more of that training, if the dog DOES get punished, they cannot handle it.

I had always believed that positive reinforcement training increases a dog's confidence and therefore makes it easier for him to handle problems. I think that in the majority of the dogs that we work with, this is the case. But we can't help but wonder how to explain the other dogs' behaviors. The dogs weren't particularly sensitive or "soft" while in training, which makes it even stranger.... They would have to have experienced the aversives only a few times, as this usually comes up within a few weeks of them moving in.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this? Or know of any data that would discuss it??

 

[Doberluv]

I think it's very possible that a dog that never has anything very aversive happen to him, hasn't experienced a lot of punishment could certainly be more affected by it. It's like not being "socialized" to something. But it also probably depends a lot on the individual dog's temperament.

One time my Dobe, Lyric got scolded pretty loudly by my Dad. (I was P.O'd) But Lyric just stood there and looked at him like, "Huh? Duh....what?" He didn't cower or anything. He just looked like he didn't know what he meant. If someone would do that to Chulita, she'd melt and become one with the floor.

I think dogs that get punished to some degree....scolded, hollered at get habituated to it to a degree...get a punishment callous and it doesn't affect them as much...outwardly at least. I think the reaction to it may be reduced. Whether or not they're becoming shut down inside is another thing. Some signs from a dog's reaction may be very subtle and no one really knows what's inside them.

Those are just my thoughts or gut feelings. I don't have any real studies or anything about it persay.

I think the people receiving these dogs ought to also receive some kind of education on how to treat their dogs. And like social workers do, these people should be checked up on....how they interact with their dogs. But I guess that could cost kazillions. It's a shame when these gifts are mistreated. Then you probably feel like the people don't deserve them.

When I think of all the dogs I've had over the years, my more recent ones that were trained with more +R type training do happen to be more on the soft side I'd say. But one can not form anywhere close to a true experiment with so relatively few dogs. It could be any number of other factors which determine their softness.

 

[Maxy24]

As with anything, if they are not used to it they may be frightened of it. That said I would not go about punishing dogs just for that, if you wanted to you desensitize them to yelling as that is more problemsome (them reacting to people yelling in general) just like you would desensitizing a dog to anything else. With puppies you'd just yell a lot while playing a game or yell at them right before dinner. They should not need to handle any physical punishment anyway. plus you'd think the owners would want a dog who saw a raised voice as punishment enough, that way they'd never have to get harsh with the dog.


I think what also happens is that dogs who are punished become more tolerant of it, which is not what anyone wants either. In a few years the only adversive punishment that would work on the dog would be very harsh (though I don't agree with any physical punishment so I wouldn't care what level of pain a dog "needs") unless all punishment given previously had been terrible (one time only and the dog almost never tried again because the punishment was so scary for him so he never built up a tolerance to it). I see it a lot with dogs on chockers. They pull like crazy and could care less about the chocker because they have gotten used to that level of pain, it's normal everyday pain now.

 

[lizzybeth727]

I think the people receiving these dogs ought to also receive some kind of education on how to treat their dogs. And like social workers do, these people should be checked up on....how they interact with their dogs. But I guess that could cost kazillions. It's a shame when these gifts are mistreated. Then you probably feel like the people don't deserve them.

LOL. We spend nearly $20,000 and over a year training each dog, and give them free to recipients. You think we just give them to anyone? LOL!

People who apply to get a dog have to fill out an application and pay a small application fee. Then they come to a full day's worth of interviews and training sessions where we determine whether an assistance dog is the right option for them and their household, and whether we think they will be able to handle the dog (physically and mentally) and maintain their training. Once accepted onto the waiting list for a dog, they have to read at least two specific, assigned books about +R training and take a test on each book. When they finally get a dog, they come for five full days of training with the trainers (usually a 1 to 1 ratio of recipients to trainers), where they start to learn how to handle their dogs. Then we have a trainer who goes to their home once a week for at least three months, to continue training at the home and in public, at the end of which the recipient has to pass the ADI Public Access Test. They are then required to take and pass the ADI test again once or twice a year (depending on how long they have had the dog), giving the trainers a chance to see the dogs periodically. Additionally, the organization maintains ownership of the dog, so at any point that we feel the dog is not safe we will take it back.

BUT the problem is that we cannot be around every minute of every day. And most of our recipients (and almost all of their families) aren't really that interested in training dogs, they just want a dog that will do what they tell it to do. We do have discussions with the families about how the dog will be handled in the home, but that still doesn't guarantee that they will do everything we tell them to do. Pet dog trainers know that noncompliance is a huge problem they have to work with, and it's not much different for people with assistance dogs either!

(Of the two dogs that I gave as examples in the first post, one has been removed from that home after being there for only a week; the other is still in the home but not improving, so it is likely he will also have to be removed.)

 

[BostonBanker]

With my super-soft dog, I've seen exactly the opposite. She's the dog who submissive peed in the garage when my brother was outside grilling and yelled a question to someone in the house. She's the dog who went under a table in the training center and didn't come out for over 30 minutes when I clapped my hands and said "HEY" to try and stop her from peeing on the floor in there.

3 years of positive training, and her confidence is nearly boundless. Yelling doesn't worry her unless it is actually directed at her. She bounces back immediately or nearly so from things that scare or hurt her, and can now enjoy 'rough' play like tug and rolling around on the floor, which worried her before.

So I guess I don't know if positive reinforcement can make a confident dog soft, but I do know it can make a soft, scared dog confident.

 

[corgipower]

I don't see how +R would make a dog softer. It could be that they need more desensitizing to being yelled at, and I also desensitize mine to fast movements towards them, grabbing them (in case of emergency - if the dog gets loose and I need to get physical control without a leash and collar, I might end up grabbing hold of the dog in a way he otherwise wouldn't like), I desensitize them to my hand over their head and coming down quickly (as though I was going to hit them, but then when I make contact it's just petting). All of that is paired up with huge rewards.

If it's only been a couple of dogs with problems, it's likely something about those dogs and their temperaments ~ maybe they're not so adaptive or don't have sufficient recovery rates, or something specific to those homes ~ something more extreme going on in the house.

In my experience, R+ does help build confidence in a nervous dog, but it doesn't make a hard dog soft or a soft dog hard.

I think what also happens is that dogs who are punished become more tolerant of it, which is not what anyone wants either. In a few years the only adversive punishment that would work on the dog would be very harsh

Yea, see I've seen a lot of dogs trained with corrections, and I haven't ever seen this happen.

 

[Athebeau]

What I have seen with dogs that are punished and live with "unpredictable" highly aroused humans is the dog either shuts down, some shut down and become more dangerous. Or they become reactive. Shutting down the dog may appear to be insensitive to being punished but sometimes enough is enough and they may "break".

I've also watched in obdience trails where you saw the dogs that did extremely well obtaining thier obediecne titles but you coudl tell they were trained in a harsh manner. There were a few times teh dogs would slink around but did everything correctly in a manner that showed they were intimidated by the owner. Its amazing to compare to a dog trained with positive only as the dogs are more inclined to be more excited and happy. With one of our past Newf's when she was on her last leg for her CD everyone would gather to watch her do her recall as she would get sooo excited. lol

The thing is as well, for example if I was brought up in an abusive home by parents who abused me etc I would be more apt to marry an abusive man. If I was brought up in a home with positive highly motivating parents who were happy and I enjoyed being around I will be more balanced and happy with my life and make better choices. I may not deal well with abuse and want to get away from it. Why should anyone or any animal have to learn to deal with abuse or corrections? If I was abused as a child it may be the only life I am familiar with and I may feel I deserve it and shut down.

 

[Doberluv]

I don't think an animal ever gets "use" to abuse. Then you definitely see terrible effects. But it is my opinion that dogs do get habituated to milder forms of punishment. And like I said, depending on the animal's temperament, their reaction or just how they're affected of course, will vary.

No, Lizzybeth, I din't think that your organization would give the dogs to just anybody with no care or thought for the dogs. I figured there was some kind of process. I'm glad to know that there is such good follow-up. That, I didn't know about....didn't know how that was done. I am not familiar with this venue.

 

[Cheetah]

When Shippo was a pup, I did a lot of work on scruff and collar grabbing, putting him on his back, and semi-rough handling, so nowadays he doesn't care. Although, I didn't really do much work with yelling. I don't yell that much. I'm a pretty quiet person actually (contrary to what it seems like sometimes on here lol).

But he really doesn't react much to yelling regardless of if whether or not I desensitized him. Every dog is different though.

 

[Beanie]

I've done 99.9% positive reinforcement with Auggie, and he is the anti-soft.
That's just his personality, and it's part of the temperament of his breeding, too.

Then again, Auggie barks at people that startle him too. Not aggressive barking, just normal sheltie "HEY HEY HEY SOMETHING MOVED HEY" barking. As soon as he realizes there's nothing to be alerted over, he quits. I'm not sure when you say they bark at somebody that startles them if you're talking about that or like, aggressive snarling and snarking kind of barking...

I think it's probably largely a temperament thing rather than anything having to do with a training method.

I've also watched in obdience trails where you saw the dogs that did extremely well obtaining thier obediecne titles but you coudl tell they were trained in a harsh manner. There were a few times teh dogs would slink around but did everything correctly in a manner that showed they were intimidated by the owner.

Actually, having just watched an OB trial this past weekend, I saw the opposite. The people snarling at their dogs, yanking on leashes, et cetera had dogs that moved slow and did not willingly or quickly perform each exercise. Those people did very poorly. But I had no issues with Auggie at all.
I'm not saying beating your dog into submission doesn't work - but from what I just witnessed, it looks like it doesn't really work that well. =P Seems to me that's a far faster way to get a dog that's reactive (fearful) and shut down.

 

[Romy]

I don't see how +R would make a dog softer. It could be that they need more desensitizing to being yelled at, and I also desensitize mine to fast movements towards them, grabbing them (in case of emergency - if the dog gets loose and I need to get physical control without a leash and collar, I might end up grabbing hold of the dog in a way he otherwise wouldn't like), I desensitize them to my hand over their head and coming down quickly (as though I was going to hit them, but then when I make contact it's just petting). All of that is paired up with huge rewards.

If it's only been a couple of dogs with problems, it's likely something about those dogs and their temperaments ~ maybe they're not so adaptive or don't have sufficient recovery rates, or something specific to those homes ~ something more extreme going on in the house.

In my experience, R+ does help build confidence in a nervous dog, but it doesn't make a hard dog soft or a soft dog hard.

This has been my experience too. Borzois are known for being a soft breed, and after Strider got attacked the other people in the borzoi club said he would never forget it and would always be reactive to other dogs...that has turned out to be absolutely false and I attribute that in part to his temperament and in part to +R training.

If yelling causes a problem for a specific dog, then I would try to desensitize them to being yelled at or around. Start yelling all angry like while throwing treats at them or something. Strider doesn't react at all, except to look interested when someone is yelling because something is going on and he's a nosy guy. Then again, I watch kids for a living and the 8 year old girl I watch loves to run SCREAMING into rooms. She's not supposed to, but if Strider was ever going to be nervous about it he got over it a loooong time ago, lol.

 

[release the hounds]

I don't think it makes dogs softer either, they are what they are. if it appears more of them are softer now, it's just because they aren't habituated to things before they go out like they were before there was so much +R

 

[lizzybeth727]

I'm not sure when you say they bark at somebody that startles them if you're talking about that or like, aggressive snarling and snarking kind of barking...

No, it was just one or two barks, kind of like a "gasp!" when we get startled.

The thing is, I worked with this dog over the course of a year, in all sorts of situations, in crowds smaller and larger than he was in this case, and he NEVER startled-barked at anyone. He rarely even startled. Other trainers worked with him during that time, too, and they had the same experience. Now, after living with a new family for only two months, he does this.... it just seems very strange and we're trying to figure out how to explain it. Maybe it's that he's getting yelled at and is more jumpy around people; maybe there's something completely different.

I don't think it makes dogs softer either, they are what they are. if it appears more of them are softer now, it's just because they aren't habituated to things before they go out like they were before there was so much +R

 

[Beanie]

Hmm... well, with Auggie it's expected of the breed so I don't really worry about it. If it means anything, he never did it as a puppy but when he got older and matured a little more he started to do it.

Is the overall behaviour of the dog jumpy, or just this one thing? Any other kinds of reactivity or shyness/fearfulness? Is the family annoyed with it or concerned..?

Auggie is also NOT reactive to stuff out in public and in strange situations. It's only in places he knows, like at home or out at his breeder's place. I think it's because in his home, he knows how things should be, where stuff is at, what sounds are normal and what isn't - so anything out of the ordinary is cause for an alert.
But I would think if you had worked with the dog for a year, it would have grown comfortable with his surroundings enough to display the same sort of behavior as Auggie if that is actually what it was... so, hmm. I don't really know. Just throwing some ideas out there. What breed is the dog..?
But I don't think it's a lack of "hardening" with punishments or anything like that, I think something else has happened to create this sort of reactivity, be it maturity or something bad happened to the dog in his new home...

 

[corgipower]

But I would think if you had worked with the dog for a year, it would have grown comfortable with his surroundings enough to display the same sort of behavior as Auggie if that is actually what it was

Or it could be that he was comfortable enough to not startle-bark. Trusted his trainer, secure in his surroundings and that he's not yet settled into his new place and new activity and new sounds.

 

[lizzybeth727]

Is the overall behaviour of the dog jumpy, or just this one thing? Any other kinds of reactivity or shyness/fearfulness? Is the family annoyed with it or concerned..?

He's pretty laid-back in general, when he gets stressed he shuts down, doesn't generally get jumpy.

He has started barking at the door when anyone comes in or knocks. He did this some while he was in training, but we do think it's gotten worse.... maybe because the recipient isn't as good a dog handler as the fosters the dog was with before.

The family is basically annoyed with anything the dog does that's remotely irritating.

But I would think if you had worked with the dog for a year, it would have grown comfortable with his surroundings enough to display the same sort of behavior as Auggie if that is actually what it was... so, hmm. I don't really know. Just throwing some ideas out there. What breed is the dog..?

Well, being a service dog, he HAS been out in public a LOT. Maybe he's grown comfortable with being in public the way Auggie is comfortable at home.... But then, the trainer who saw the dog barking in public couldn't see anything out of the ordinary, couldn't really understand why he would be barking.

He's a lab.

 

[release the hounds]

when dogs were raised and trained around with more punishment based methods, or yelling or heavy handedness, whatever you want to call it, a soft dog at that point might not have made it thru training. It would have been washed from the system, or it wasn't that soft, habituated to that type of stuff, and was certified and put out working.

The question was does +R make dogs softer because it seems some dogs aren't able to cope as well when they go into "real" homes. I say it doesn't, but it does allow for a softer dog to begin with to make it thru training with no apparent signs because it hasn't had to deal with that before.

 

[Cessena]

The question was does +R make dogs softer because it seems some dogs aren't able to cope as well when they go into "real" homes. I say it doesn't, but it does allow for a softer dog to begin with to make it thru training with no apparent signs because it hasn't had to deal with that before.

You beat me! I was just going to say Correlation is not the same as Causation. This is a more likely explanation.

/statistics nerd

 

[Angelique]

I'd say it sounds like there are a few issues which need to be considered when trying to answer this question.

First, each dog is an individual with their own abilities. Maybe more dogs should not make the program to begin with.

Second, if a dog is going to live in the real world, part of their training should use Classical Conditioning to prepare them to handle a certain amount of stress which will come from real world experiences and living as a family member in a human world. The dog should be expected to have some social skills regarding boundaries, and compliance when a human stops them from engaging in inappropriate social behavior.

Third, more training of the humans these dogs will be loving with...in how to set boundaries, handle, and train their dog to be a stable member of society.

Fourth, review the entire service dog training process for flaws in the methods, philosophies, and/or belief systems which are currently being used for their contribution in creating dogs which cannot handle real life.

And finally, set high standards of compliance to policy (over personal agendas) for the trainers who are actually training these dogs.

 

[release the hounds]

I agree completely