Questions for bully & APBTA 'type' owners

[cliffdog]

the GOAL of matching was NOT to harm or be harmed. the GOAL was to prove gameness the violence & injury were a necessary risk in order to achieve the goal.

To be fair, the goal of matching was to win and/or make money. Just like the goal of putting your dog in agility or a *shudder* conformation show is to win that title.

I don't think it's important to fight dogs for money to preserve the breed. Personally I'm against it. However I think the breed will suffer an unfortunate change without game testing. Believe it or not, it's not just a pit bull thing. In countries where dogs are still important to the livelihoods of many people, many dogs are tested against one another to determine their tenacity and unwillingness to give up. They're tested once. They don't have to undergo three, five or more severe beatings with money on the line to prove that that have they are good enough to be bred.

I don't think a dog has to be dead game to be a good example of the breed. But game testing is a good way to show that your dog can handle the heat. A dog that gives up at the first sign of discomfort is not a good example of the breed. Game testing a dog, once, for no reason other than to determine whether your dog is a rank cur or not, no money or glory on the line, would be a valuable tool for helping to evaluate your stock, were it legal.

 

[Laurelin]

are the bullmastiff & the english mastiff two different breeds?

Yes. The bullmastiff was crossed with bulldog. Not the same thing. It's not entirely an English mastiff bred in another direction.

I'd liken APBT and Amstaff to Aussies or Border Collies (those breeds are more my speed). In both Aussies and BCs there's two main registries in the US. The AKC show dogs are often only AKC registered and the working dogs are often only ABCA or ASCA. There's overlap (especially in Aussies as there's a lot of dual breeders). But there's still segments of the population that don't interbreed much or at all with the other. If you cross an AKC Australian show line border collie with an ABCA working border collie, is it a mix? I don't think so.

 

[Tahla9999]

To be fair, the goal of matching was to win and/or make money. Just like the goal of putting your dog in agility or a *shudder* conformation show is to win that title.

I don't think it's important to fight dogs for money to preserve the breed. Personally I'm against it. However I think the breed will suffer an unfortunate change without game testing. Believe it or not, it's not just a pit bull thing. In countries where dogs are still important to the livelihoods of many people, many dogs are tested against one another to determine their tenacity and unwillingness to give up. They're tested once. They don't have to undergo three, five or more severe beatings with money on the line to prove that that have they are good enough to be bred.

I don't think a dog has to be dead game to be a good example of the breed. But game testing is a good way to show that your dog can handle the heat. A dog that gives up at the first sign of discomfort is not a good example of the breed. Game testing a dog, once, for no reason other than to determine whether your dog is a rank cur or not, no money or glory on the line, would be a valuable tool for helping to evaluate your stock, were it legal.

But its not. Now that we got that out of the way, what next for the breed and how can you improve it? That is what you should be thinking of.

And gametesting your dog once would not prove whether or not every dog is game or a cur since many dogs have had bad first fights but turn out game in later fights. And you all keep going on about a change. How would this breed change without fighting, and give me some proof that it will happen.

 

[Barbara!]

How would this breed change without fighting, and give me some proof that it will happen.

American Staffordshire Terriers.

 

[Tahla9999]

American Staffordshire Terriers.

Yes, a breed who, as time went by, people purposely bred thicker for the preferred look and primarily for showing.

 

[stafinois]

I love the notion that AmStaf breeders produce only for the show ring.

But, carry on. It amuses me.

 

[Tahla9999]

I love the notion that AmStaf breeders produce only for the show ring.

But, carry on. It amuses me.

If your referencing me, I didn't say only for show. Since most people do not have much experience in the American Staffordshire world, why don't you give some enlightenment? I think they are the same breed as the APBT but who went in a different direction. What is your opinion?

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

I love the notion that AmStaf breeders produce only for the show ring.

But, carry on. It amuses me.

I feel the strong need for a gene wilder photo right now.

"So AmStafs are all fat slobs?"

"Tell me more about your years of experience."

SnarkSnarkSnark.

 

[Red Chrome]

I love the notion that AmStaf breeders produce only for the show ring.

But, carry on. It amuses me.

I feel the strong need for a gene wilder photo right now.

"So AmStafs are all fat slobs?"

"Tell me more about your years of experience."

SnarkSnarkSnark.

Uh...AGREED!!! I recently met a very nice AST puppy that put a lot of APBTs gamebred and otherwise to shame! But carry on...

 

[Renee750il]

Yes, a breed who, as time went by, people purposely bred thicker for the preferred look and primarily for showing.

Take a look at Kady's Sako before generalizing Staffies

 

[stafinois]

If your referencing me, I didn't say only for show. Since most people do not have much experience in the American Staffordshire world, why don't you give some enlightenment? I think they are the same breed as the APBT but who went in a different direction. What is your opinion?

Not your post in particular. I've been watching this and shaking my head. There is this strange notion that AmStafs are all cookie cutters of what you see at Westminster. Well, the truth is that they vary as much as the APBT, there are just a lot less of them. My AmStaf has dogs with wins in his pedigree closer than a lot of "real" APBTs.

SevinSins also touched on the isolation of bloodlines thing. If the AmStaf is so different due to the separate gene pool, how does one explain the extremely isolated gene pools of APBTs? A good deal of modern rednose dogs are related more closely to my AmStaf than they are to dogs coming out of the Colby yard.

There's a whole lot of commenting on AmStafs in this thread, and I'm guessing that most doing the commenting don't have a lot of experience in AmStafs. Little to no knowledge about bloodlines and no idea about the history outside what's been printed in Dog Fancy and regurgitated online by misinformed "experts."

My personal take? They are different strains of the same breed. Had the AKC accepted the American Pit Bull Terrier as the name, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Here is an interesting article from the archives: http://odnarb.com/blog2/2012/06/24/...-the-staffordshire-terrier-to-be-a-new-breed/

And, pics of my old man in his youth. He was a stocky, hulking dog at 45-48 lbs. At 11.5 he weighs about the same but isn't nearly as toned.

 

[stafinois]

Him with another AmStaf. Total cookie cutters.

 

[Red Chrome]

Aimee- Who is the other Am. Staff? He looks familiar!

 

[Pops2]

...Why would it be (the same breed)? The Bullmastiff had Bulldog crossed in with the Mastiff (you know, hence "Bullmastiff") to create a new breed. What does that have to do with this? Whether or not you like it, these dogs are the same breed...

my first reply was at school & i couldn't see the photos, but you've brought up a very important point.
perspective
are these three the same breed?

according to the AKC & the anatolian club they are. according to the Turks they are 2 pure breds of different breeds & a mongrel.


but a better comparison might be this

again the AKC and one breed club says they are. but the other breed club says they are not. both come from the same foundation stock & there is a huge overlap in appearance (pretty much identical except for height/weight extremes) & the only thing really seperating the two breeds is temperament, personality & performance. that in a nutshell is the arguement of whether the APBT & identical LOOKING breeds/dogs are the same breed. one side is basing their interpretation on looks & the other on intangibles that relate to performance.

 

[Pops2]

Yes. The bullmastiff was crossed with bulldog. Not the same thing. It's not entirely an English mastiff bred in another direction.

since you missed it. BOTH breeds are based on the same foundation stud, Thorneywoods Terror (an F1 bullXmastiff). and some of his pups from female mastiffs went into the bullmastiff. i'll go you one better even. the boerboel is a refinement of bullmastiff (despite the nonsense you hear from american breeders it was created pretty much entirely in the early to mid 20th century & pretty much entirely from bullmastiffs). so from the stand point of closed studbooks & lineage all three are one breed taken in different directions. yet it is entirely possible to have "poorly bred" examples of BM & EM look like a BB.

I'd liken APBT and Amstaff to Aussies or Border Collies (those breeds are more my speed). In both Aussies and BCs there's two main registries in the US. The AKC show dogs are often only AKC registered and the working dogs are often only ABCA or ASCA. There's overlap (especially in Aussies as there's a lot of dual breeders). But there's still segments of the population that don't interbreed much or at all with the other. If you cross an AKC Australian show line border collie with an ABCA working border collie, is it a mix? I don't think so.

but other's will have differing opinions, which differing opinions will continue to push the breeds further apart.

 

[Pops2]

But its not. Now that we got that out of the way, what next for the breed and how can you improve it? That is what you should be thinking of.

And gametesting your dog once would not prove whether or not every dog is game or a cur since many dogs have had bad first fights but turn out game in later fights. And you all keep going on about a change. How would this breed change without fighting, and give me some proof that it will happen.

that's not entirely true. IF one has the connections, dogs can be sent to Japan to be matched LEGALLY and when proven game, repatriated for breeding. IF i really needed gameness (say i wanted to recreate the cunningham line of greyhounds) i'd talk to some old acquaintances and find just such a repatriated stud.

 

[cliffdog]

But its not. Now that we got that out of the way, what next for the breed and how can you improve it?

That's easy, import from Serbia and Russia where it's still practiced.

 

[SevenSins]

Pops2, go back and read post #298. I'm curious as to how you would answer that. I've proposed the same question many times to many people, and most "APBT" people won't touch it, because it locks them into a catch-22 that they don't want to be in.

 

[kady05]

I love the notion that AmStaf breeders produce only for the show ring.

But, carry on. It amuses me.

I've been laughing at that too. Yup.. that's all Sako's good for!

Oh and btw - did you know that just because he doesn't act like a complete fool when he's around other dogs that he's a "shell" of a dog?

 

[stafinois]

Aimee- Who is the other Am. Staff? He looks familiar!

Kelley's Turk.
He was the sire of her Georgia and Tater.

I've been laughing at that too. Yup.. that's all Sako's good for!

Oh and btw - did you know that just because he doesn't act like a complete fool when he's around other dogs that he's a "shell" of a dog?

Manners ruin a dog. Shame on you!