Question on disciplining dog!

[hiki0921]

Hello,
I have a question about disciplining my dog. We have a new puppy in the house and I have noticed that my 14month shepherd mix hasnt been listining as well as she used to. Tonight she decided to bring back her old game of "catch me if you can". She hasnt done this for awhile (4-6 months). She usu. will come back to me as soon as I call her (for the most part). This game went on for about 10min, until my roomate let the puppy out the house and then she came running back. I tried to approach her and she dogded me and tried to continue playin with the puppy (both off leash). She easily got sidetracked and I was able to grab her. I yelled at her and pulled her inside and put her in the crate. My 2 questions are:

1. From previous experiences I have never yelled/disciplined her when she would play "catch me if you can", unless I was able to sneak uip and grab her as she was tryin to run away. If she would run for 10min and then eventually come to me when I called her I would only praise, as to not have her think I am mad at her for coming. In tonights episode was I correct for disciplining her when she ran to play with the puppy. When I walked back over to her and the puppy I wasnt going to, but she tried to run away from me again and the only way I was able to get her was to sneak up on her. Was I right or wrong for yelling at her?? And are there any other ways to discipline this behavior??

2. On saturday I ran to the store real quick and left her out of her crate and she got in the trash, I caught her red handed and she ran away from the trash and tucked her tail (she def knew she was wrong). I have neveer done this before but sat. and tonight I yelled at her tapped her on the nose and then put her in her crate. My question is if it is a bad idea to put her in her crate as a form of punishment??


THANKS ALOT!!!

 

[ToscasMom]

I don't know much about training, but I decided early on that I would never use the crate as a punishment. I wanted my dog to see it as a safe, comfortable place.

I will now leave the rest of your questions and how to handle the problem to people who know a hell of a lot more than I do about dog training (which isn't hard). But it sounds like maybe the dog is a little jealous of the new "sibling," seeking attention?

 

[juliefurry]

I would never discipline a dog for coming to you. That will only make them scared of you. I don't think discipling is really an option though here, you just have to always keep her leashed and work on a recall with her. Also it has been suggested to me as well to never use a crate as punishment or the puppy will come to have issues with the crate and not want to be in it.

 

[Boemy]

If you yell at her after you grab her, you're "teaching" her that she has to be more careful not to get caught next time. Something you might try is making excited, happy noise and running away from her. A lot of puppies will get excited and chase after you.

 

[~Jessie~]

I would never use a crate as a form of punishment. The crate is supposed to give dogs a safe haven, a comfortable place... it serves as their den. If you punish your dog with the crate, they will learn to fear it and associate punishment with the crate.

 

[lakotasong]

Never scold a dog for coming to you (believe me, I know it can be hard sometimes). I personally don't like to use a crate as punishment. And take a step back, return to training on-lead until she is reliable with the puppy in the picture.

My $.02

 

[fastpitchchic]

a crate is supposed to be a safe place for a pup. it's supposed to be their home. i would never use a crate as punishment.

 

[Melissa_W]

I agree with the others. Don't use the crate as punishment, don't punish when she comes to you.

If she starts trying to play the "catch me" game, the last thing you want to do is chase her. Ignore her completely when she does that. You can even try running away from her, so that she chases you. Eventually she will come to you. At the same time, go back to the fundamentals on the recall until she's reliable again. Work on lead first... once you let her off, don't call her unless you are confident that she will come.

 

[otch1]

Yes, it's incorrect to use your crate as a form of punishment. A young dog that's been reliable for months on a particular command, will often wake up one day, and act as if it's the first time she's heard it. I'm guessing that, with a new puppy, you're spending less time/focus on the other dog. Training daily and quality time will correct this. She does not sound like she's ready for off leash work yet, so keep her onleash until she's "trained". Off-leash reliability means you can take her in public and know she'll stay by your side, regardless of distractions. Instead of crateing her after disobeying a recall, quietly go get leash and treats and train! Practice 5 to 10 recalls, (on a long line if you have one and good soft treats). Help her be successful and teach her what she is supposed to do, verses focusing on what she's not supposed to do. You'll have a different response from her in a week, with daily practise. good luck!

 

[baineteo]

I'm sorry to interupt, but what is a recall?

 

[Rubylove]

To answer your specific question, yes it is a bad idea to use the crate as a form of punishment. Dogs are very forgiving but have good memories and so if you use it as punishment, you can't (or shouldn't) then use it for anything else - it will confuse your dog and make the lesson you are trying to teach impossible to learn.

Secondly, and you mentioned this in your post, never EVER punish your dog for coming to you. They cannot make the connection (like a child would be able to) that you are angry because they ran off, not because they came back. Dogs associate your reaction with the immediate event - so the immediate event to your dog is coming back, not running off. It is very hard to do sometimes - once our dogs when puppies escaped out the front door and ran off up the street and I can tell you NOT screaming the place down when they came back was very hard! But I didn't and they remain unafraid of coming to me. You are aware of this already I see, so just keep on praising for returning and following the good advice you've been given in other posts on this issue. Training a reliable recall (and to answer your question, baineteo, a recall is when your dog comes back to you when called) is vital and essential and IMO more important than many other basic commands.

Your GSD is still a puppy - these dogs have very long puppyhoods and in fact she is in the adolescent stage where most of your training will go out of her head, she will push her boundaries and she will think it's ok to decide for herself what she can obey and what she can't. Basically, you need to go back to the basics with adolescent dogs. Sit before pats, meals, toys, playing - get her into the habit of obeying you for everything. She needs all her basic training gone over again like you would with a puppy, and reinforce it consistently and often. It's a trying time with dogs but this is also when their concentration is on the verge of really developing so the lessons you reinforce now will all of a sudden just click into place once the dog matures, and won't be forgotten.

Lastly, your dog did NOT know she had done wrong when she was in the trash. Dogs do not operate on `right' and `wrong' the way we do - they operate on punishment and reward. Basically, your body language showed you were angry, and in her past experience when your body language has looked like that, she has been punished, and that's why she had her tail between her legs and seemed as though she knew she'd done the wrong thing.

We must be careful not to anthropomorphise (which is attributing human characteristics to animals) with our dogs. They do not operate the same way we do and do not think the same way we do. They are amoral (quite different to immoral) and work on positive or negative reinforcement. They are MUCH more in tune to tone of voice, smell and body language than we are, and in fact rely on these senses much more than their vision. If your dog looks guilty they are in fact not FEELING guilty, they are not capable of this it requires more complex mental cause-and-effect connections than dogs' brains are wired for. Basically, they look guilty because you look angry, and they are actually exhibiting fear, not guilt over something they have done. Children can show remorse when they know they are going to get in trouble, and moreover, they show it because they understand why they are getting in trouble. But a dog shows fear because it's owner looks angry, and that's IT.

This is not to say that they can never learn what is right and wrong - it's just that to them it's not about right and wrong, it's about what they will get rewarded for and what they will get punished for. It's fun to go through the trash - you'll never be able to teach a dog that it isn't. But what matters is the pay-off. They get a pay off going through the trash because it's fun. But if the ultimate pay-off is punishment, they'll stop doing it. That's how they think. And as soon as you work that out, training them will be so much easier!!

There is no reason you can't play games with your GSD - she just has to know when to stop, and when to stop is when you say so. They are highly, highly intelligent dogs and teaching her to chase you as a game is a very good idea - this would mean that she sees you running off in the other direction and she knows to follow - it's also a great way of teaching recall. Because you have this breed of dog, you need to spend extra time stimulating her because GSDs languish without mental stimulation - it is as important as physical exercise.

The best form of punishment for any dog is getting no attention. If you catch your dog in the act, you say a short, stern, deep `AH' (not `no'), and take her to a place of isolation for no more than two minutes. This effectively cuts her off from you, gives her time to settle down, and does what she hates the most - a lack of attention. Perfect way to discipline without physical punishment or intimidation. And an isolated, quiet place is NOT her crate!

 

[Caren+Bailey]

I'm sorry to interupt, but what is a recall?

Recall......Is calling the dog to you