Question for Clicker Trainers
- Thread starter SisMorphine
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If I don't like a behavior, I'm going to give the dog a clear "plan B" to get what he wants, rather than just ignore the bad behavior that might be reinforcing itself.
I wouldn't say that I ignore bad behavior very often, with the exception of things that are usually best if allowed to extinguish on their own, like crate barking.
Edit: For "blowing off", usually I just prevent the dog from being able to blow me off. I get rid of some competing motivators, put the ADHD dog on a leash so they can't get distracted and walk away, and then slowly build up to a higher level of distraction.
And sometimes I grab their little faces, look them in the eye, say "Uhhh, HELLO?" and repeat the command -- depending on how well they "know" the command. There are some things that I won't ignore and I don't want them to get into the habit of not hearing my commands, or thinking that it's okay to zone out and go into their own little world. So I guess I don't ignore the bad at all. I don't necessarily punish it, but I let them know that what they're doing is not what I want.
For a dog that is blowing off a sit command, I would imagine the behavior is just not strong enough under certain distractions.
I wouldn't say that I ignore bad behavior very often, with the exception of things that are usually best if allowed to extinguish on their own, like crate barking.
Edit: For "blowing off", usually I just prevent the dog from being able to blow me off. I get rid of some competing motivators, put the ADHD dog on a leash so they can't get distracted and walk away, and then slowly build up to a higher level of distraction.
And sometimes I grab their little faces, look them in the eye, say "Uhhh, HELLO?" and repeat the command -- depending on how well they "know" the command. There are some things that I won't ignore and I don't want them to get into the habit of not hearing my commands, or thinking that it's okay to zone out and go into their own little world. So I guess I don't ignore the bad at all. I don't necessarily punish it, but I let them know that what they're doing is not what I want.
For a dog that is blowing off a sit command, I would imagine the behavior is just not strong enough under certain distractions.
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Just to clarify, we're not talking my dog, we're talking hypothetical.
Let's say the dog does know the command, but perhaps is easily distracted, no matter what food you have on you, and no matter the environment your in.
Do you still ignore it? If not what do you do since corrections and physical manipulation are not an acceptable part of clicker training?
Let's say the dog does know the command, but perhaps is easily distracted, no matter what food you have on you, and no matter the environment your in.
Do you still ignore it? If not what do you do since corrections and physical manipulation are not an acceptable part of clicker training?
If it's attention seeking behavior, such as jumping up to greet, trying to play when you don't want to play, whining for something....then ignore it because attending to your dog reinforces that kind of behavior.
If it's something where the dog is being reinforced in some other way, either by the environment or all by himself, ignoring it doesn't matter. The dog couldn't care less if you ignore him. He's already getting a kick out of whatever he's doing. So, you distract him and give him an alternative, preferrably an incompatible one, if possible. For instance, he's chewing your couch, give him a no reward marker, "eh-eh" and hand him a wonderful chew toy, praise and treat for chewing that instead. Better yet, prevent him from chewing the couch in the first place. Prevention is always better than waiting for him to be reinforced by the fun of chewing the couch.
When a dog appears to be "blowing you off," he's not thinking it through in a logical way like we would....."Well, she called me but I don't think I'm going to do it because even though I know it's 'wrong,' I really would rather be doing this." No....that's human complexity. Dogs do what is most motivating to them. Period. There is no morality in it to them. Whatever works best, they do. If you tell your dog to sit and he doesn't, he has not had enough practice. And as it was said, he needs practice in lower distractions first and then gradually add them in little by little. If he doesn't comply, he's not being stubborn or naughty. He's simply undertrained and needs more practice. He hasn't had a strong enough history of reinforcement for the behavior. If you give a command to sit, and he doesn't, simply try again. Help him. Get his attenion, but do it kindly. He's just an animal. And then go home and practice in a boring place for a few weeks, adding a small distraction here and there, building up etc Lots of reinforcing needs to be done in all kinds of contexts and locations and varying degrees of distractions, from differnt positions in relation to where you're standing and where you're facing. It's not as simple to a dog as one might think.
People think their dog knows sit because everytime they ask him to sit, they're standing in front of him, facing him, perhaps looking at him with one hand held behind their back. Then they tell him to sit, but their hand isn't behind their back and they're looking sideways. To the dog, this may not necessarily mean to sit. Dogs watch our body language to the extreme and it becomes part of the cue. If the owner changes the cue when the dog has not had enough practice, and the dog doesn't comply, the owner calls him "stubborn" and punishes him.
Once the dog gets profficient at sitting with variations in location and contexts, you still have your work cut out for you....standing in different positions, sitting down one time, standing with your back to your dog 25 feet away, telling him to sit when you're inside, leaning out the window and hes in the yard. Will he still sit? If he doesn't, he does not know "sit" thoroughly.
Dogs don't generalize well. All these positions and locations have the potential to mean something different than sit.
So, your dog will be much less likely to fail or "blow you off" if you set him up to succeed by not placing him in an impossible environment for the level of training he's in. If you ask too much of him too soon....he's not ready for that, he will fail. It's not his fault. It's the trainers for expecting him to pay attention when he just can't or he simply doesn't know what you mean. If he fails, go back to a stage where he was successful and work more there. He MUST succeed at baby steps....lower levels before he can succeed in more difficult levels. You don't scold a baby for not being able to walk when he hasn't learned to crawl yet, right? You don't accuse the dog of being stubborn and insubordinate if he fails to comply when he's undertrained.
If it's something where the dog is being reinforced in some other way, either by the environment or all by himself, ignoring it doesn't matter. The dog couldn't care less if you ignore him. He's already getting a kick out of whatever he's doing. So, you distract him and give him an alternative, preferrably an incompatible one, if possible. For instance, he's chewing your couch, give him a no reward marker, "eh-eh" and hand him a wonderful chew toy, praise and treat for chewing that instead. Better yet, prevent him from chewing the couch in the first place. Prevention is always better than waiting for him to be reinforced by the fun of chewing the couch.
When a dog appears to be "blowing you off," he's not thinking it through in a logical way like we would....."Well, she called me but I don't think I'm going to do it because even though I know it's 'wrong,' I really would rather be doing this." No....that's human complexity. Dogs do what is most motivating to them. Period. There is no morality in it to them. Whatever works best, they do. If you tell your dog to sit and he doesn't, he has not had enough practice. And as it was said, he needs practice in lower distractions first and then gradually add them in little by little. If he doesn't comply, he's not being stubborn or naughty. He's simply undertrained and needs more practice. He hasn't had a strong enough history of reinforcement for the behavior. If you give a command to sit, and he doesn't, simply try again. Help him. Get his attenion, but do it kindly. He's just an animal. And then go home and practice in a boring place for a few weeks, adding a small distraction here and there, building up etc Lots of reinforcing needs to be done in all kinds of contexts and locations and varying degrees of distractions, from differnt positions in relation to where you're standing and where you're facing. It's not as simple to a dog as one might think.
People think their dog knows sit because everytime they ask him to sit, they're standing in front of him, facing him, perhaps looking at him with one hand held behind their back. Then they tell him to sit, but their hand isn't behind their back and they're looking sideways. To the dog, this may not necessarily mean to sit. Dogs watch our body language to the extreme and it becomes part of the cue. If the owner changes the cue when the dog has not had enough practice, and the dog doesn't comply, the owner calls him "stubborn" and punishes him.
Once the dog gets profficient at sitting with variations in location and contexts, you still have your work cut out for you....standing in different positions, sitting down one time, standing with your back to your dog 25 feet away, telling him to sit when you're inside, leaning out the window and hes in the yard. Will he still sit? If he doesn't, he does not know "sit" thoroughly.
Dogs don't generalize well. All these positions and locations have the potential to mean something different than sit.
So, your dog will be much less likely to fail or "blow you off" if you set him up to succeed by not placing him in an impossible environment for the level of training he's in. If you ask too much of him too soon....he's not ready for that, he will fail. It's not his fault. It's the trainers for expecting him to pay attention when he just can't or he simply doesn't know what you mean. If he fails, go back to a stage where he was successful and work more there. He MUST succeed at baby steps....lower levels before he can succeed in more difficult levels. You don't scold a baby for not being able to walk when he hasn't learned to crawl yet, right? You don't accuse the dog of being stubborn and insubordinate if he fails to comply when he's undertrained.
Hi there... unable to post a minute ago and my response was deleted while having to log in again. Lol My response may be similar to those you've received but I find that many owners often hit a training plateau with young dogs. Don't know your dog or the hypothetical dogs age, but you'll find that often, owners train up to 10 to 12 months of age with reasonable reliability from the dog/puppy at home or in a group class, so they start spending less time proofing commands, start taking the leash off too soon or decide the dog is "finished". For many dogs, the training process is ongoing until maturity. It is up to the owner to make the training sessions interesting and motivate the dog to "work" for them. Dogs can become conditioned to working in a certain environment and experience boredom or lack of interest, just as people do. Try adding some games to your training sessions while incorporating the commands your dog seems unresponsive to. Make it fun. The "find it" game worked from a "front" is fun. Your trainer should know some of these. When dogs hit a plateau it's time to "up your game", increase the amount of time spent on daily training and playing with the dog (both should be equally as interesting for the dog if you're doing it right) and don't lose patience. Good luck!
I realized it'd not your dog in the training class we're talking about. So, just wanted to add that "no", no trainer using clicker or any other method will encourage a student to ignore unresponsiveness. Generally, after several weeks or months with a student and their dog, most of us can see where the problem lies and will tweak training exercises for that particular client, when we see they're having a problem.
Lol ya everytime i go to the trainer they say, that. but I was at the aspca, and there was this nice russain trainer who said if you reward the dog to much they willl get so obssed with that that every second they will be winning for a treat. I think its only good to use treats with non-trained dogs.Like with my old dogs they became obbsede with that. It made one of them a little aggressive.
always,
lila8dog
always,
lila8dog
Hi Lila, "tweaking" an exercise does not nessecarily mean adding more food. There is often a point in an exercise that warrants a jackpot, some instances where food should be withheld, ect. My apologies for not clarifying that. Most dogs do not truly become obsessed with food during training. If you found yours actually becoming aggressive for some reason, the training games I had in mind, incorporated into a session really break up the monotony, increase your dogs level of focus and responsiveness, without the worry that your dog is only responding to the food reward verses the commands. Hope that made more sense.
Hi! I'll clarify. I think the problem may be in my first post. In response to this thread, "no" most trainers, clicker or otherwise will not encourage a student to ignore unresponsiveness during training. They will adjust the exercise for a student, change things up a bit, incorporate games and show them how to get their dogs attention and solicit a speedier response. In response to your post, while getting the dog to respond doesn't always mean increasing the food reward, most dogs don't have a problem with food used during training well into maturity and well past the point of knowing an exercise. It's simply payment for their work.
i would take several steps back, return to training somewhere that is not so distracting, and find ways to engage my dog with me in a more active manner before i move into that environment again. i would run, whoop, act silly, whatever it took to get that dog's attention on me and off the environment.
you need attention before you can ask for any behavior.
you need attention before you can ask for any behavior.