Question about tense interaction with another dog

[BSan]

I was visiting my dad with my dog. He is one year old, half retreiver/standard poodle, wants to play alot with other dogs, is 69lbs, and barks in a down play stance waiting for the other dogs to play. He is very gentle, and practically gets down on the floor to the level of small dogs to play with them. My sister later came to visit my Dad with her grandchildren, and dog, a very small one year old Australian shepherd female, really nice friendly dog, who has been used to being around other neighborhood dogs, and also lives with an older golden retreiver . She did seem to be a bit more submissive at first. Our dogs met one time briefly with no problem.I was going to leave, just because I thought it was too much going on with the kids, and the dogs, but my sister encouraged me to stay and eat with them. This time, my sisters dog took a very quiet stance, not rolling over, peed, looking withdrawn and quiet, not liking my dog barking, not wanting to play, not sniffing........and then peed a few more times. My dog didn't take the clue,
( and probably neither did we) and my dog kept barking. Her dog growled....the first time my sister ever heard her growl. I was going to leave, but my sister said they will be fine. I got a hold of my dog, keeping him from the other dog, and was planning to leave shortly. Before I had a chance to do that, the little australian shepherd started growling, then lunging toward my dog to snap. My sister had never heard her dog growl before, or snap. My dog took the clue, backed off, stopped barking. I still had a hold of him. Mollie came toward him and tried to snap a few more times, and went into the other room. I wanted to leave then, and as I walked to go to leave, Mollie came after my dog again, and we had to back up, my sister got a hold of her dog, and I exited quickly. Her dog never did this before.
To some who understand dog behavior, this may seem simple. If anyone has any helpful input, I would appreciate it. My thoughts are that my sisters dog manifested fear aggression, and my dog needs to learn that not all dogs want to play. I know that dogs establish dominance, but Mollie did not seem to take the stance I have seen some dogs take with their body posture.I also wondered if Mollie was also nervous, because the grandkids were there. If I had it to do over agin, I wouldn't have taken my dog in at all, as I planned to do. My dog didn't want to fight back at all, just kind of looked at the other dog as if saying "what the heck is wrong.....I just want to play" I am not sure how to interpret these kind of dog interactions, nor do I know how far to let dogs get to know eachother, nor how to approach it. I know that having kids around was a potential disaster. My sister thought that her dog is gentle, and likes other dogs and would be fine, and my dog is happy, friendly, and playful and likes other dogs. Some people let their dogs interact and work out their places, and some get bitten. I saw that happen with two dogs, and then they were fine, of course after one dog had a small bite. I know it can get really dangerous too, for the dogs, and people around. Is there good material to read that is helpful?? I have chosen with this dog to try to socialize him more with other dogs then I previously have with all my other dogs, so this is learning ground for me. Not sure how to do this. He has gone to obedience classes, and is going to good citizenship classes. He wants to play and bark in between working on obedience, and as he and I have found out, other dogs may not want to play, may not like his barking, may be afraid, and may let him know it. Thanks for any input.

 

[Doberluv]

Has your sister's dog been to your Dad's a lot? If her dog considers that her territory, that can make a difference. Dogs will act differently when they feel territorial. Your dog was too intrusive (a little rude) in doggie language when the other one was clearly not receptive to his play advances. And yes, you sister's dog may have been fearful and defensive about her territory....which may have been the home and/or her people. It is better to introduce them on neutral territory until they get to know one another and if they get to like one another. Not all dogs love all dogs, just like with people. If someone is rude and pushy, marching all through your house, you probably wouldn't like them to be there. You might not growl but you probably wouldn't invite them back or you might ask them to leave. Well, dogs communicate by growling. It's a good thing they do because it helps the other dog understand what's going on. If a dog is receptive and not naive about other dogs, they will back off and leave the other dog alone. Unfortunately many dogs are naive about other dogs becaues they don't get enough socializing. And even then, sometimes personalities just don't click.

I would try going for a walk on neutral territory where neither have been with your sister and your dogs a few times a week.....where they're not free to interact much but are walking parellel to one another on the outside of you and your sister. And see how that goes before giving them free, unleashed access to eachother. As long as they're calm and Ok with eachother, praise them, give them a tiny treat. If the one dog acts snarky, just keep moving, don't make a big deal out of it. Don't punish the growl.

 

[BSan]

Thanks Doberluv. I do think you hit the nail on the head. My sister takes Mollie with the grandkids once a week.
I take Herbie there about once a week also, but not at the same time or day most of the time. My sister and I don't live close by, so the getting to know eachother on walks will not be something we can do.
About my dog, Herbie's doggy rudeness, intrusiveness, naivety........ exactly just how are those things worked out? I have taken him to classes, and just started another class, but I think that I am not sure that the socialization there is enough. What kind of socialization is helpful? The walking together as you suggested? Running around off leash in my fenced in yard after meeting and getting along? Herbie reminds me of a dog that wants to play so bad, but never gets to really do it, because of the circumstances. He is around other dogs, but hasn't really ever gotten to roust around, and never off leash with another dog except a little neighborhood pomeranian who can't play because of a physical problem. I am not sure what you think about dog parks, but we have none anyway. With my work schedule changing, it would be difficult to regularly walk my dog with another person, as I take him different days and times. I do live near a pet smart, and I am not sure what they offer. I drive to classes about 35 minutes away, and people there are from all over the place. I chose there instead of pet smart right in my town, because pet smart just opened, and I was not sure of how smoothly the clases would run, nor the experience of the trainers, since it is a new place. Perhaps in the new class starting next week, a good citizenship class, I may meet someone who would like to get together. I have had three labs over many years. They were very socialized with people, but not with other dogs. I have learned from the place where I purchased my dog, that it is very good for them to be socialized with other dogs, and it is not the same for them as being socialized with people. So, I want to do this, but just have not been sure how. I need to network with "dog people" in my city somehow. As I am writing this, I am thinking of the county kennel club, also a group of people that I have heard of that meets. Thanks for yor input. I need to make it a priority to seek out some avenue to socialize my pooch. He needs some "doggy manners"

 

[Doberluv]

I think you hit the nail on the head. LOL. We're turning into regular carpenters here. LOL. How you described socializing sounds good...the classes sound good. Yes, if one or two other dogs and your dog get along and you give them a little time, watch their body language, make sure they're friendly and fine, they could play off leash if it's a safe area. There's always a chance for a little spat but if they seem great for a while, they'll probably be fine. I don't like a whole bunch of dogs together at a time, but if you can vary the dogs a bit from time to time...

All I had for my Doberman were classes and he was great when he was young and then he got a little dog reactive as he got older, at around 18 months. He didn't have enough dogs around here to play with except once a week at class and he really didn't get to play much. He had my niece's dog and otherwise, this place is so unpopulated that there just aren't that many dogs around close by. He's OK and not seriously aggressive to other dogs, but quite reactive sometimes on a leash. But too, Dobermans are known for being a little dog aggressive sometimes. I don't know really if that's just them or insufficient nurture. It's hard to arrange for dogs to interact enough with their own specie unless you live in a more populated place and can really get together with people and their dogs a lot.

And again....it's not natural for them to just be enthralled with every dog they meet. After all, they were descended from semi-solitary village dogs and before that wolf ancestors. Those solitary dogs didn't have much use for each other unless they were breeding/raising young. They scavenged village dumps around the human settlements in the Mesolithic period and sort of got along by themselves pretty well. Wolves and wild dogs may have a pack when they're raising young or hunting large game and in certain seasons, but even they are not always in a pack. And if they are, it's generally a family and not a bunch of strangers. So, to think that our dogs should love every dog and not be "grrrrrrr" with some is unreasonable. I see people saying to their dogs if they get grumpy with another dog..."Now you share that toy and get along.":yikes: :lol-sign: They punish their dogs for their instincts or lack of conditioning for accepting a lot of dogs.... instead of just managing it. So, ya do the best you can and just enjoy your dog.

 

[Spiritus]

One thing that kept in my mind when reading this thread was self-control. Dogs need to learn it too

It sounds like Herbie was sort of like this with your sister's dog...

I wanna play I wanna play I wanna play - she WON't play she won't play she won't play - I'll let her know I wanna play I wanna play I wanna play!

Getting Herbie to more obedience classes will help teach him some self control, because he will be taught that in the presence of other dogs, he needs to listen to you.

I've seen behavior like you mentioned. Some dogs that aren't as vocal as others can get visibly upset with barking "rude" behavior, so much so that they do exactly what your sister's dog did. Basically telling him to shut the heck up. And then, in typical Aussie fashion, showing the other dog where the door is Now, is either behavior acceptable (the constant barking on Herbie's part and the lunging/snarling/snapping on your sister's dog's part)? No, neither really are in "polite" society. Both dogs could probably benefit from obedience class - your sister's dog, to be exposed to and learn to understand a variety of some of the "breed specific" body language (a lot of breeds play differently than others), and your dog to learn that down means down, no barking, sit means sit, no barking, and hush means shut you mouth.

But, in the mean time, if you guys get together again, and Herbie is rude and barks and barks at the Aussie, put your body between the two of them, tell Herbie to knock it off, and ask him to down facing the other direction. Break his eye contact on the Aussie and redirect him to doing something he can do well without barking. If you are doing something like eating dinner, leave one dog outside. If you have the two of them together, be prepared to intervene. Your sister must also be prepared to break the eye contact of her dog if she sees her staring hard at Herbie.

And just one other thing to keep in mind.... some dogs are completely fascinated by dogs without tails.....

 

[Doberluv]

Terrific advice! See? Putting a lot of heads together....we all come up with a little of this and a little of that and I think that's just great.

 

[BostonBanker]

Thanks for these great posts! I have the "other dog" in the original post - the one who sometimes (okay, often) gets upset by other dogs' play invitations. Since I didn't have her when she was young, I can only assume it is a lack of socialization with different types, combined with "I'm a mature, adult female, and you are acting like a child " attitude. I want to do what I can to improve it, so I love the ideas. Bsan, do you want to get together for some joint socialization?!

 

[Doberluv]

Really? You're Bsan's sister? How cool!

 

[Bobsk8]

I have the opposite problem with Smokey. When we go to the park and there is a pushy type dog that either barks at Smokey or chases and nips at her, Smokey won't get angry with the dog, but just walks away. I wish she would be better at setting boundries with other dogs, but she seems to not want to get into a hassle with them. This makes me a bit nervous, because I think that some other dog is going to bite her some day because they think she is a push over..... I'm not quite sure how a dogs mind works yet...

 

[Doberluv]

That's a good thing she's doing Bob. When she turns her body or looks away, that is a "calming signal." Well adjusted dogs use calming signals to try to avoid conflict and that's just the way they should do. It's instead of making a big issue out of something. Be glad you've got one of those. Most dogs will tend to "leave it" (lol) when a dog does that.

 

[Bobsk8]

That's a good thing she's doing Bob. When she turns her body or looks away, that is a "calming signal." Well adjusted dogs use calming signals to try to avoid conflict and that's just the way they should do. It's instead of making a big issue out of something. Be glad you've got one of those. Most dogs will tend to "leave it" (lol) when a dog does that.

Thanks for the info.....

 

[BSan]

Spiritus, that is just tooooooo funny. Wanna play wanna play etc.......... that was exactly the description......but you made it sound more like doggy language lol...........and the tail thing.......he was checking out that end earlier on....again lol I never thought about how dogs look at tail less dogs....too funny
Boston Banker, yes, I would love to get our dogs together......pa..... vermont... vermont..pa. We could take turns!!! It's about priorities!! lol
Doberluv.......we are all getting to be carpenters...aren't we! Thanks for the calming info. I never knew that. I don't think molly did the calming thing. She did the staring thing, but presented herself as being a little shy, and then it was screaming in doggy language......"Please shut up.....you are annoying......not interested, and stop checking out myback end where I have no tail"
Ok, here is another question.......why in the world do they take the tails away from these poor creatures that were meant to wag wag wag??????

 

[BSan]

P.S. thanks for all the really good input!! And thanks also for the laugh....I had a late tiring day at work, and came home and sat at my computer and after reading the post, sat here and laughed all by myself. I feel better now!!

 

[Doberluv]

Ok, here is another question.......why in the world do they take the tails away from these poor creatures that were meant to wag wag wag??????

BSan, my Doberman has a docked tail...after the 2nd vertabra. He wags it furiously and a lot...ping, ping, ping, ping. He just doesn't knock things off my coffee table with it. He's extremely expressive with his tail. It goes up and down and all around. LOL. It's very cute how it wags...absolutely love his cuteness. He's an extremely joyful, exuberant and expressive dog, not only with his "extremeties," but his facial expressions too. And I can read him as well or better than any dog. He's my first with a docked tail and I've had dogs, lots of them since I was 5 years old and I'm 52 now. LOL. The docked tail of a Doberman, for instance is less of a handle to grab onto. They're also, if un-docked, thin, long and whip-like without a lot of fur and can be injured easily, especially in protection or other work...they're extremely active and exuberant dogs.

His cropped ears too are like little satelites as he pin points the direction of the source of a sound. He's much more exacting than the floppy eared dogs I've had....

An erect earred dog can localize the source of a sound to within a 5 degree cone, whereas a drop earred dog can only localize a sound source to within a 20 degree cone. Since Dobermans do SEARCH AND DETECTION as well as SEARCH AND RESCUE, cropped ears are a decided advantage. And of course...personal protection. (my Dog)

I can read him very well in what he's looking toward and he hears things sooner, quicker than say my Lab did.

(The tail docking is done before the nervous system is complete in that area.)

 

[Spiritus]

You're welcome BSan.

Aussies wag their butt.

 

[BostonBanker]

Really? You're Bsan's sister? How cool!

:lol-sign: Not that I'm aware of! Sorry it sounded that way - I just meant I have the slightly territorial, grumbly, "stop barking at me, I don't want to play" type dog, like her sister's!

Boston Banker, yes, I would love to get our dogs together......pa..... vermont... vermont..pa. We could take turns!!! It's about priorities!! lol

Or we could just meet half-way! I'm sure my boss will understand if I tell him I have to take time off to go let my dog socialize with another dog in PA

Meg has a docked tail as well (or, to use the technical term, a "nubbin" ). It is pretty easy to judge her mood just by watching it - and it still hurts like the dickens when she is wagging it hard against your leg!

 

[Doberluv]

Not that I'm aware of! Sorry it sounded that way - I just meant I have the slightly territorial, grumbly, "stop barking at me, I don't want to play" type dog, like her sister's!

Oh......you probably didn't sound that way. I sometimes don't register things quite right. LOL.

 

[BSan]

I talked to the trainer today, who will be teaching good citizenship course in the class I signed up for. She said that puppies need to be socialized early with other dogs. If a puppy is not socialized early on, it takes some extra time and patience. So.......I signed up for private training right before my other class starts, to work on heeling, anything he needs extra work on for certification, since they did not have enough people sign up for intermediate obedience class. He will on occasion, interact with the trainers dog to socialize in a less distracting, less structured setting. It is a start!

 

[BSan]

Doberluv, I too am 52!!
I suppose the dogs don't mind having their tails cropped. I am glad they can still wag their "nubbin".

 

[Doberluv]

Oh good! So we have a couple more "maturing" people on here than I thought. lol. Great. That is wonderful that you're getting a good start with the training. Let us know how it all goes. Good luck!