Question About Resource Guarding

[vandynole]

My dog is developing some resource guarding, and I have been working on the "trade" approach with him (i.e., if you let go of that sock, I'll give you something much tastier).

My question is: Can this teach your dog that by stealing something he's not supposed to have, he'll get a treat in return? I sometimes wonder if he's manipulating me b/c he's figured out our little deal.

I totally understand the logic behind the "trade" apprach, but do wonder if it indirectly rewards the dog for bad behavior.

Thoughts?

 

[BostonBanker]

This is one of those things that would make me laugh and say, "no, they don't think like that"...if I hadn't seen it.

My friend has a terrier cross that she originally fostered for the local HS. The dog had issues with resource guarding, and my friend was going to work on it so she could be adoptable. So, every day, that dog did dozens of trades, for several weeks. It turned out she had some pretty serious health issues that made her unable to be adopted. My friend ended up keeping her.

This dog certainly figured out about trades. She would grab things off the floor - usually dog toys, sometime slippers or such, and run over to you, waving it in your face and making the funniest sound. It was hysterical to see. "Look! Check out this toy I've got! Isn't it cool? Wanna trade?"

But, the behavior had two great advantages. She never was destructive (because as soon as she grabbed something, she'd bring it to you), and she has never resource guarded since. Most of the time when she brings you something, she either gets it thrown for her (if it's a toy) or gets a "Why thank you for bringing that to me!" and praise. This is years later, after the resource guarding is completely gone.

So, the point of this long story is, yes, I believe they can figure it out, but you are much better off with a dog that brings everything it finds to you for a possible trade than a dog that is going to bite if you want to take something from it.

 

[Doberluv]

No, because the dog is giving you something and he's being rewarded for giving you the item, not for taking it in the first place. That happened before.....lots of seconds ago. The thing that happened just now was that he gave. That's the behavior that counts. A reinfocement must come within 3 seconds or he's onto something else.

Teach "give" and "take" (from your hand) like a fun game. He gives you a toy, you give a treat and give him back the toy right away. He learns that it's no big deal to give you things because he gets a treat and he gets the thing back. After he's been playing this game for quite a while, you don't have to reward him every single time....just sometimes. I'd always praise though....("thank you.") Try giving him something else he can have if you have to take a valuable from him. I still do that with my adult dogs....not every time, but sometimes. "Nah....can't have that, but here, have this instead and thank you." LOL.

 

[BostonBanker]

Hmmm. What doberluv said is what I would have thought.

Perhap the difference is that my friend's dog never had an issue with taking inappropriate items? It wasn't like she was thinking "If I go in the bedroom and steal a sock, someone will come over and give me a treat for it." It was more like, "Hey, I've got this toy in my mouth. Wanna give me something for it?".

I don't know. Logically, it doesn't make sense to me. But I can't imagine another way to interpret her behavior. Dogs are strange creatures, for sure

 

[Doberluv]

I must have not been thinking right or explained what I meant wrong. You're right Boston. Dogs can learn a behavior chain where he learns to pick something up, take it to Mom, get a treat...it's retrieving. If the two things happen in quick succession, they can tie them together. He got reinforced for picking up the object. It was fun perhaps or tasted good. Then he gets rewarded for bringing it and giving it. Then at some point the reward for getting it and bringing it is a better motivator than just getting it. It's a treat. So he puts together the two behaviors as a chain.

But I don't believe that he thinks to himself, "If I get that which I'm not suppose to have, the "wrong" thing, I'll get a treat for it." I don't believe that dogs are manipulating us in a logically, thought out process. They do something and get reinforced enough times and they repeat it. Do this and that happens. Period. He doesn't think about what's morally right or wrong. He is amoral.

What I do with pups is keep them from being reinforced in the first place by being able to get hold of my stuff. Keep it out of reach. If they get it and have fun with it, then that reinforces them. If they do get hold of something, then I trade them for a treat and/or an appropriate toy...show them what they can have to chew on and reinforce them with praise or a treat or a very good toy. All my dogs have never been reinforced for taking a no no this way. They simply are shown what they can have, prevented for the most part from getting my good stuff and being reinforced for that by having fun with it.... and learn to leave my stuff alone.

The thing is.... constantly taking things from dogs without giving them a good reason to give it up can develop a defensiveness in them. It's natural. They learn that anyone coming around their stuff is a bad thing. In nature, a dog is not willingly going to give up his food or bone because he would not survive if he did, not even if a dog is higher on some heirarchy who is trying to get it. The specie would not flourish if dogs or wolves said, "sure, take my food." So we have to teach them our way and make it OK to have people take their stuff.

I also actively teach leave it in such a way that the dog develops a bit of a sense about what is my stuff and what is his. I've typed that out somewhere.

Redyre has a thread which is stickied about using a toy box to re-direct the dog to when he gets a no no. It's a very good system.

 

[sam]

I'm not a huge fan of the "trade " approach and would rather teach a "drop on cue". I suppose it depends how you go about "trading" but if you have to show what you are offering in trade to get the item from the dog, the item you are offering becomes part of the cue. Of course it's possible to fade that part of the cue but that can be difficult. Why not just teach the simple drop behavior from the start? If you have to show what you've got, it's also essentially a bribe which is never a good thing. Reward is very different from a bribe - That's not lost on dogs. It's important to keep what you're offering out of the cue because you may not always have something to trade with when you need to ask your dog to relinquish something. I want my dogs to be 100% conditioned that when I say "drop" they spit out what they have regardless. Of course they are richly rewarded whenever possible and 100% of the time when they're still learning. They don't need to consider "hmmm do I want what you have? Maybe I'd prefer to keep what I have?" It's just an automatic conditioned response.
I don't think a dog is really thinking things through in the manipulative sense when they learn to take things in order to get you to offer something. They are just learning how to start a good game, how to get a reward. There's nothing moral or immoral about it. They aren't trying to be "bad" they're just opportunists doing what works. Havng certain things in their mouth has prompted you to come to them offering food-- not surprising that's a behavior they'd want to repeat. Heck that's half a retrieve.

 

[Doberluv]

Here's the way I see it: I'm not talking about a bribe for the most part, sometimes only at the very beginning. If a dog is already growling and snarling, it may be necessary to begin his "lessons" by showing him the treat first so he drops whatever is in his mouth. That is like a bribe and needs to be faded asap. But to prevent being bitten, I think it's one of those things that needs to be started so he'll drop what he has in his mouth.... but faded as soon as he's showing a willingness to lose the thing in his mouth.

Once he gets onto the game, is learning the verbal cue "drop" or "give" and is not so reluctant, because he's been getting the toy or bone back again in addition to a treat..... then I begin to give the verbal cue first and then reward with the treat.

What my main goal is, is to have a dog who has been given a good reason to drop or give. If all along things have been ripped from him or taken from him, even if he does drop it, he is apt to get more possessive. Nobody wants their stuff taken away. After he gets into the habit of giving or dropping on cue because good things happen when he does, just like anything else, the reinforcement goes onto a variable schedule so he doesn't know if he'll get something or not. Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't. Meanwhile, it has been practiced enough with nothing horrible happening and he gets use to giving up his stuff.

This is for conditioning puppies.... or dogs with a guarding issue already. With dogs who are showing aggression, it's important to start the practice lessons with a not so valuable item and give a higher value reward for giving or dropping the item.

This is how I've always prevented any of my dogs from guarding anything at all.