Question about positive "reinforcement" training

yohan520

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#1
First of all, how do you spell re-enforce? If it's reinenforce, where does the i come from??

Now to the real question.

What happens if the dog decides that he/she's content with what they have? How will the dog "know" what is wrong if the owner shows no reponse to it? What if the dog decides that unleashing the dirty nuggets on the carpet instead of waiting to go outside is more awarding than getting a treat? I've always been with the "if they do something wrong, give them a slap in the buttocks with a rolled up newspaper" routine, but I'm finding out that doing so may have negative consequences.

Obviously, I want what's best for the dog but am baffled as to how the dog will learn to distinguish what's wrong from right.

Thanks :)
 
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#2
The whole idea of training with positive reinforcement is that you are teaching your dog to think and actually make a choice. Sure, they can go on the carpet and not get punished, but they would much rather wait to go outside and get a click and treat for it! Yes, they would just LOVE to jump up on the guests and lick their faces, but if they sit politely they learn they will get a click and treat.

Through punishment, the dog has no way to LEARN that they shouldn't go on the carpet, for example. If you catch them going, distract them by saying "No!", pick them up, and take them outside. Once they go outside, give them a click and treat. If you see the after math of the accident, it is too late to punish. They don't know what they did wrong once you find it, and by slapping their rump or rubbing their nose in it, they only learn to fear humans.

Trust me, positive reinforcement is really the best way to go when it comes to training. Positively reinforced dogs tend to be more emotionally stable and are more likely to have good behavorial habits then dogs who have been "taught" through punishment.

Hope I helped!

Cindy
 
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#3
Couldn't have said it better myself, Cindy! :)

Yes, "reinforcement" is correct, as counter-intuitive as that seems. I would much prefer re-enforcement, but I'm not Webster. :)

Positive reinforcement is coming to the forefront now (this last 40 or 50 years) because the science of animal behavior is starting to be taken seriously. The idea that animals' and humans' behavior followed sets of relatively simple rules dictated by genetics and environment--and that these rules were worth studying and understanding--was pretty appalling to the scientific community for a long time. Folks like Pavlov and B.F. Skinner were instrumental in bringing behavioral science into the realm of serious study. More recently, as the field has really taken off, people like Dr. Marc Bekoff and trainers like Monty Roberts and Karen Pryor have helped spread the science through popular culture. There aren't a lot of people who haven't at least heard of "The Horse Whisperer" or "positive reinforcement" or "clicker training". Behavioral science is in a renaissance that was sorely needed by animals around the world. Clicker training is hip and it's just getting hipper. Everyone--from school teachers to zoo keepers--is getting into positive reinforcement as a science and finding incredible results that they just can't get using traditional intimidation and force techniques. It's an exciting time to be a trainer!

I remember my aunt telling me that, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." I think that statement has a lot more value than we know. It's true that you can teach a dog using punishment and cruelty; people have been doing it for thousands of years. But if you have the choice between your dog doing what you ask because he's afraid not to and your dog doing what you ask because he trusts and admires you, which would you pick? You can bet that a dog trained with positive reinforcement will be quicker and happier to respond in new situations in a way you like. If you terrorize him into doing what you like, he will be a lot more hesitant to do anything at all for fear that it will be wrong. If you had two trainers in front of you, and one had a whip and the other had a popsicle, who would you rather work with? And here's the clincher--you get a better result with the popsicle!! I personally have a lot more respect for someone who's willing to work with me and answer my questions than I do for someone who's snappy and barks orders.

All behavioral side-effects and emotional damage aside, I don't swat or yell at my dogs because I wouldn't want to be swatted or yelled at. There is a better way to communicate with them. By using positive reinforcement and keeping abreast of the developments in the field of behavioral science, I show my dogs (and cats, and boyfriend, and mother, and employees...) that I respect them and value their thoughts, feelings, and opinions. I respect their right to choose and encourage them to choose correctly, and if a mistake is made I will do everything in my power to correct it and help them to understand why it was a mistake and how to avoid such a result in the future. It is not necessary or even desirable to rule your dog with an iron fist. There is no need to live in an adverserial relationship with your dog. It is easier, more effective, and healthier to develop a relationship based on trust, consistent guidelines, friendship, and respect. You aren't your dog's ruler, you are his leader. Rulers may be resented and rebelled against. A good leader is respected and admired.

There is nothing like a warm house full of good dogs. When you understand each other on both emotional and scientific levels, the utter insanity that our dogs are capable of inflicting on us just melts away. I would trust my dogs with my life, because I know they would do the same. And although they still do things I don't like, I understand why they do them and have learned over the years what is really important and what isn't. I get angry with them sometimes, but because we know each other so well there is no yelling or physical attacks in our house. In striving to understand dog behavior out of a desire to train them, you come to realize that, for all their human qualities, dogs are dogs. I think back on all the things my dogs have done and never once were they being anything but dogs. And dogs are intelligent, beautiful, comical, irritating animals.
 

yohan520

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#4
I guess I just have a hard time seeing this because it doesn't work that way in humans. Only one way to find out I suppose :)
 

Agility23

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#5
it depends on what type of punishment you use

Negative punishment would be say not giving the dog a piece of food for giving the wrong behaviour.

Posative punishment would be somthing like hitting the dog - to telling the dog NO.

Posative re-enforment /clicker training type stuff is more about the behaviour not being reinforced till its right. Such as a play bow for example, The human uses the clicker to shape the dogs body postition then give postative re-enforment to the dog to say yes thats the right postition i want. After this has been done many times the dog then accosiates the Postative re-enforment with the play bow and then learns the play bow through this.

The dog knows what wrong because that behaviour is not reinfored although most people use some postative punishment in there daily life if only a NO when the dog does a behavior such as barking at the door.

If the dog does not whish to do the correct behaviour such as not pull on the lead then you change to another method that allows that paticular dog to understand the job you want more clearly.

The problem with posative punishment is dogs dont like it, IT can reduce confidence and nearly always produces slower results.
 

maui

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yohan520 said:
because it doesn't work that way in humans. :)
I'm confused by what you mean. What doesn't work what way in humans? You can't teach people with positive reinforcement?

Also, the doo doo issue. I was raised in a "Shove the dogs face in doo doo" family. Sure, our dogs were potty trained. They were also boring, fearful of being seen doo dooing (even outside), and did I mention boring?

We made a decision to train our dog through positive means. He is the most interesting animal (Okay-I'm biased) I've met. He's expressive, silly, offers all kinds of cute little tricks, and he recovers from timidity really fast.

With the doo doos, I did use the word, No. Which led to him doo dooing in a room we used about never. I stopped saying, "No!" after that. I also gave cookies (Or Roast Beef-up the anti) when it was done properly. After doo dooing it was play time, not just treat time. He would get a happy mom, and we would run with toys. Sometimes we still play and about once a month I still hide a cookie in my pocket.

Other issues... We used a crate, and we kept a very strict schedule giving a lot of chances to doo doo correctly. He became conditioned to doing it correctly. And, yes, he is completely house trained.

Good luck!! Maui
 
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#7
My whole point is that it does work in humans! I would venture to say it works in basically the same way for all mammals, and for birds as well.

Maui brought up an excellent point. A woman I worked with basically beat her dogs into submission, and they were the most maladjusted dogs I've ever met. She showed them and frequently won, but the poor dogs had been mistreated and mistrained all their lives and had no idea how to behave like dogs. They were unhappy, uncreative animals with virtually no individual personalities. They didn't know how to interact with people or other dogs normally. She really destroyed them, and yes, they were boring. The worst part of this story is that this woman is a professional dog trainer and probably makes six figures a year. Poor misinformed people go to her, trust that she knows more about training than they do, and proceed to pay her to abuse and oppress their dogs. It's awful. I'm not a vindictive person, but I won't stop training in this town until she's out of business. People just don't know there's another way!
 

BigDog2191

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#8
Don't know much about clicking (I personally don't use it), but Bailey's got it on the, distract him with a NO and pick him up to put him outside. At least to my experience.
 

mrose_s

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#9
The dog will eventually learn that the treat is more rewarding...
would u rather sit in a room all day with nothing happening, or go for a walk to buy a milkahshake or whatever. Im sure the dog would much rather prause and treats than just to being able to toilet inside

:)
 

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