Pulling

[BaileysMom]

I left a message about Halti's in the General Discussion where I just found out my Halti could actually hurt my dog and I was using it as a walking aid rather then the training aid it should be used for. I'm going to try taking him off the Halti.

So, here is my question. The whole reason I have him on a Halti is because I have tried for long periods of time training him to stop pulling through click and treat and by just stopping until he stops pulling. I can't seem to communicate to him that he gets rewarded for stopping pulling for some reason. I'm not entirely sure what he thought he was getting rewarded for during the click and treat sessions, but he never quite caught on because the pulling continued without improvement until I bought a Halti. I would stop walking when he pulled and the MOMENT he stopped pulling, I gave him a click and a treat and we continued on our way, where he would pull again. This continued for a few weeks on his daily walks before I purchased a Halti at the recommendation of the dog trainer we had our training sessions with.

I was wondering if anyone has any other suggestions I might not have thought of. Can you think of anything I might have been doing wrong with the click and treat that would cause confusion for him?

 

[Zoom]

Another method you can try is the "180". Don't' use the halti for this one. When your dog starts pulling out on a walk, don't wait for him to hit the end of the leash and really start digging in. Instead, the minute he passes you to the point that he can't see you (usually when his midsection is even with your knee) call to your dog "Sparky, let's go", about-face and start walking in the other direction. You may end up turning circles in a 10-foot section of the sidewalk, prompting your neighbors to think you've gone crazy. Don't worry about them, you want your dog to think you've lost your mind and that he has to keep an eye on you at all times, because who knows where you're going to go next? This is what you want, his attention on you at all times. Even if he's just peeking out of the corner of his eye to see where your knee is at, this is good.

 

[adamwehn]

Another method you can try is the "180". Don't' use the halti for this one. When your dog starts pulling out on a walk, don't wait for him to hit the end of the leash and really start digging in. Instead, the minute he passes you to the point that he can't see you (usually when his midsection is even with your knee) call to your dog "Sparky, let's go", about-face and start walking in the other direction. You may end up turning circles in a 10-foot section of the sidewalk, prompting your neighbors to think you've gone crazy. Don't worry about them, you want your dog to think you've lost your mind and that he has to keep an eye on you at all times, because who knows where you're going to go next? This is what you want, his attention on you at all times. Even if he's just peeking out of the corner of his eye to see where your knee is at, this is good.

That's a good trick, I've been gently nudging my Pup with my calf when he gets too far ahead, calf to the shoulder, and just a light pressure, enough to make him look over at my knee.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

The 180 is MUCH more effective if you say nothing to the dog.

This is classic Koehler, and he said you should say nothing and SNEAK ON QUIET FEET as you turn about.

For this method to be effective you need to be using a 6 foot leash at the least, and the dog should be going one direction and you the other at a brisk pace. The laws of physics will catch up with the dog quickly, and he will about turn, and usually race to get ahead again.

As soon as his eyes are past you, sneak and turn about in the other direction.

Repeat as necessary. This teaches the dog to PAY ATTENTION to the handler if it's done properly.

Warning him before you turn relieves him of the responsibility of paying attention.

 

[Zoom]

My timing on the name call is usually after I've turned and the dog has felt the jerk but before he's passed me again. To start out though, it's silent. Only after it looks like the dog has gotten a pretty good idea of how to watch me do I toss in the name, and then it's sort of as a reminder that they're about to get too far ahead. But I also mix it up and sometimes let them pass me too far, then I 180 and they do their thing.

 

[tessa_s212]

Though I have heard of htis method being effective... if you have a dog that really hits the end of the leash, it may not be the best method. You wouldn't want to be jerking your dog around.

 

[AusCatDogs_4Ever]

I saw that method on "Good Dog" It seemed great so I tried it on Charlie... We praticed a lot but unfortunatly it didn't work for us, he also uses a halti. This was before he was neutered so at that time he didn't want to pay attention to me at all. It is too cold right now so I don't go for walks much but as soon as the snow is gone and it's nice out again we will have another go at this method! I hope it works for you, good luck!

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

It is not a method I would choose to use, I was just describing how Koehler did it.

 

[amymarley]

I am not saying that you or anyone else is doing clicker training wrong. I have just seen sooo many people get into the "clicker" mode, buy them and think their dog is going to respond. Again, I am not saying you are doing this...

I am just curious on how you actually started the clicker training. When you first bought your clicker and came home with it, what did you do? This could be a good training exercise for people who don't know. How did you use it, where did you use it? For what purpose did you use it for? What commands did you start out with? Did you get the clicker and started the walking commands?

From just reading what you wrote above, you are using 2 corrective methods, when in actuallity, you only need one. Your dog is prob. confused. Again, I am not here to judge you or bash you, but from what you wrote, if I was the dog, I would be confused.

My problem with clickers and "choke" (corrective) collars, is that there are NO real directions on how to use them.

I know I will sound snotty, or pretentious, I don't mean to be.... I didn't know when I first started training. But, you either have to be or become a trainer to know what I am talking about. These stores sell "stuff" to make money, they don't care if you know what you are doing... I could get your dog not to pull in about 20 minutes...using a corrective collar or the harness, with treats. All postive reinforcement.... no abuse....

The clicker is more involved then it looks. If used wrong, your dog is just confused. I am glad you are even taking the time to work with your pooch, but I have a feeling you have the heart and drive, just not the direction. I think it takes more work for the human and the animal to learn how to heel, or walk properly using the clicker.

The clicker has become a huge "thing" in the past few years, when in reality, it's been used in show business for a very long time for A to B behaviors and multiple/combined behaviors (going above and beyond A to B). It's just another trend the pet stores have, and people writing books about it. AND pet stores profiting from it.

I am sorry but this is just my own opinion, and again, just so NEW people know, (cause i will be bashed) I know from my old producer and the old time animal trainers. There was never a clicker sold at a pet store until about 5 years ago. The trainers used to use a bridge (same thing as a clicker), but was a childs party toy, called a "cricket." The clicker is used as a "bridge" the gap in time when the animal is to perform a behavior and then gets treated for it. It's just hype... Yes, it works, if you know REALLY how to use it, but just like anything else, buyer beware. Rember the Flo-Bee hair cutting system....

Again, the clicker can work, but it's not always for the common, household pet dog or cat. I would never use it on my own pets....NO need too.

People in the biz laugh at it, because it's rarely consistant(in normal households), where in shows, it's used very frequently.
Amy

 

[Violet21]

Have you considered the type of halti that goes around the shoulders and front legs? I can't remember what its called but it works wonderfull for Zac.

 

[Doberluv]

I would stop walking when he pulled and the MOMENT he stopped pulling, I gave him a click and a treat and we continued on our way, where he would pull again.

Did you click when he was stopped? Or when he walked without pulling. It sounds like when you both stopped, you clicked and treated, in which case you're rewarding him for stopping.....not walking without pulling.

I would be careful when you make sharp turns that you don't injure his neck. IMO there's nothing wrong with warning him with a command first...for some time until he really gets the hang of it. You want him to thoroughly enjoy his training time so he'll be more motivated. That wouldn't be too pleasant to get to the end of the leash and have that strain and alarming change of direction. He doesn't know yet. Entice him and motivate him. Make it a fun time.

You can teach him (at seperate times) to "watch me." Use a treat held up by your face and when he looks, treat him. Gradually get a little longer gaze from him. Then try it out walking in low distractions. If he can learn to watch you while you make random turns, that will eliminate the punishment of jerking his neck when you suprise him with a turn and will keep things on a reward system, which, IMO makes things more pleasant and fun for the dog and makes him want to work better for you. Make your turns fun....make it a game, "let's go" in a cheery voice and even move in a little more animated way. Entice him to come along with you and pay attention. And reward for baby steps toward what you want. If he takes even one or two steps without pulling, click/treat while you're still moving. This shows him that he's doing what you want. Before he reaches the end of the leash, when he's forging, make a turn and reward him for coming along. It all takes practice, but the training has to be fun. This kind of concentration that it takes can be hard for a young dog, so vary this exercise with a few sit/stays, comes, etc. You can even give him a break when he's done pretty well and throw a ball or stick and come back to it later. Always end on a good note and keep the sessions short and fun.

Good luck!

 

[amymarley]

I just think (my own opinion) that some people tend to put more into heeling/walking (with the clicker) than nessessary. To much work for both you and your dog. Since I can't make a case here, most of you watch the dog whisperer... he does it within minutes.... make it simple, fun, disiplended and eductational....

I can't go step-by-step on how to get your dog to heel or walk in form.... because every OWNER and DOG is different. I or another trainer would have to be there to see what is going on.

I have heard from several people "how much they love the dog whisperer," but .... have you EVER seen him use a clicker from the actual beginning to the end on walking your dog on a leash, or the heel command. NO!

I am still wondering why people just go to the clicker, like it's some magic trick for their dog. If you don't know how to use it properly, your dog will not benefit from it.

Again, clicker is great for some things, but too much work for others. I believe it's not worth it, when a dog can learn something faster and easier.

I know a lot of people here have read books, or done training. BUT, if Chaz wants to set up a clicker training demo., on a chat (so I can answer questions), I would be glad to start from the beginning and go from there. We can also have other trainers "chime in" and then you can figure out the best course of action.
Amy

 

[IliamnasQuest]

General comments on this thread.

I have nothing against the clicker - most of the instructors at our training facility use it and teach it in the classes, and it can be very effective. I've seen a lot of pet people use it very successfully. It's a matter of timing (as is all training). Some people find it easier to be consistent using the click than they are using their voice.

But I don't tend to use a clicker. I've always used a word as my "bridge" and my dogs do very well with that. A clicker is just one more thing to carry around and remember. My voice is always with me.

The problem with the method the original poster is using is probably in the timing (clicker is immaterial if the timing is off). If the dog is only getting a click and treat when he goes through a certain sequence, then it's teaching him to do that sequence. From what I read, it looks like his sequence is pull-stop-turn back-click and treat. So he does that over and over.

What needs to be reinforced is the actual loose leash walking. He needs praise (clicks if you're using a clicker) and treats WHILE he's walking calmly on a loose leash instead of waiting for him to get to the end and go through the sequence. Personally if I were teaching in that manner, I'd talk happily to my dog while the leash is loose, stop as soon as the leash tightens, stay quiet and let him figure out we aren't going anywhere, start walking again when the leash is loose and then somewhere in the middle of the loose leash walking, praise and bridge and treat.

I tend to teach my dogs the concept of a loose leash by backing up and having them follow me first. I give treats and praise as they follow, and when they have that down consistently I simply turn and reinforce them for then being at my side. If they forge ahead, I stop and when they turn to look at me, I back up (which gives them the visual cue to follow again).

I'm not fond of the 180 turn because (like nearly everything Koehler taught) it's based entirely on punishment. When your dog runs ahead and you do a 180 and walk briskly the other way, it really jerks your dog around. They're punished for doing something that they haven't been taught not to do. And like all punishment-based methods, it discourages your dog from trusting you. They learn to keep an eye on you, yes, but you damage the relationship you have with your dog when your training is based on discomfort.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[amymarley]

I love the post above....

From trainer to trainer... If I were to get a dog to heel, or walk properly on a leash... I would not use a clicker. Because I would have a nanny pack filled with goodies, a corrective collar and ME! I only know this works for me since I have trained over 300 dogs, and more coming.

The clicker, in a normal household, still makes me wonder.....unless they are a working dog.

Yes, I have used a clicker to train dogs, but not in regards to normal obedience training, just show stuff.

I am not saying anything is wrong with your training or any one else's, I just saw what worked for me.

 

[Doberluv]

I'm not fond of the 180 turn because (like nearly everything Koehler taught) it's based entirely on punishment. When your dog runs ahead and you do a 180 and walk briskly the other way, it really jerks your dog around. They're punished for doing something that they haven't been taught not to do. And like all punishment-based methods, it discourages your dog from trusting you. They learn to keep an eye on you, yes, but you damage the relationship you have with your dog when your training is based on discomfort.

You explained that better than I did. I totally agree there.

Whether or not you use a clicker, as Melanie said, your timing still has to be right. If you're rewarding after stopping, the dog thinks that stopping is what you want. So, reward while the dog is doing the right thing. I've found that with some dogs, if I did the same thing over and over....as in stopping when the dog pulled, they began to put the pulling and stopping into one sequence. So, in other words, they thought it's ok to pull because in a second, I stop and then I get rewarded. So, they would anticipate stopping and thought pulling was part of the deal. LOL. Pull, then stop, then get the reward. That's why I like to mix things up...stop sometimes to let him know that he doesn't get to go forward when he pulls, but also to stick in plenty of random turns while he watches you...keeps him on his toes.

A clicker or a marker word is very, very effective, because it lets the dog know exactly what he's doing when he's doing it. Then it doesn't matter if the treat comes a couple of seconds later, just as long as it gets to him within about 4 seconds. It's just more precise. You can use a word that you don't use for other things and make it sound crisp. The thing about the clicker is that it has been found that the distinctive sound registers in a different part of the brain than our voices which makes it very effective. If it's difficult to carry one around all the time, and it is sometimes, use a word or a whistle. Just prime him to recognize the marker sound as meaning that a treat is forthcoming. Usually about 5 minutes sitting on your couch does the trick....click/treat, c/t, c/t (or whatever marker sound you use)...over and over. Then do it from somewhere else in the room when your dog isn't expecting it. If he gets that expectant look in his face, looks at you like....woooo hoooo, where's the treat, he's made the connection. Give him the treat. Also, never make the marker sound without giving a treat or you'll lose the prime. Only use it to mark a behavior which you like and are going to reward for. Never use it for anything else.

Clicker training is not only for "trainers." It can be learned by anyone and it's not very difficult, once you learn. That's the same thing with any method. Timing is of the essence in training. It doesn't matter what method you use. Understanding behavior of dogs is also important. So, amatuer or experienced trainer....you can make this work for you. And it is very effective, fun for both dog and owner and precise.

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Hi animalbiz!

The clicker isn't my tool of choice, either, but I've seen it used successfully by a lot of people. We have instructors here who are set on using it with everyone, but they do adapt if a person has a problem with it. It's really the timing of the bridge (regardless of the sound) that makes someone successful. But when you're working with pet people, they just want a dog that does basic obedience and many of them have a really hard time praising and using a bridge word consistently. For them, the clicker makes things easier.

To me, the clicker makes the dogs less interactive with ME. I don't want my dog to focus on a click, I want her to respond to my voice and my praise and my expressions. I went to a seminar last fall with an "acclaimed" clicker trainer from England. She worked with several dogs throughout the seminar and one of the things I noticed is that she had no personal verbal contact with them. She didn't praise, she didn't talk to them .. all they did was focus on the sound of the click. It just seems so counter-productive to me to teach your dog to respond to a sound generated by something other than you.

Our training methods differ some in that I rarely use a corrective collar and my students don't use corrective collars unless a dog is really out of control - and then they're to use them only to keep the dog from pulling them over, but not to train. The problem I have with people using corrective collars is that the majority of people come to depend on that correction and the dog learns only to mind when the correction is possible. So they're generally stuck using a corrective collar the rest of the dog's life. My goal is to have dogs that respond with NO collar. I'm guessing that for you, the corrective collar is not used excessively because of your level of training experience. But that doesn't carry over to most people, unfortunately.

I live and breathe training everyday and I love it. I'm always trying out new things, pushing the limits to see what I can manage to teach my dogs .. *L* .. sometimes they look at me like I'm crazy, but they love it too. If I start working with one dog, all the others come running and we often end up doing group exercises (ever seen five dogs all spinning at once? It's hilarious!!).

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[Doberluv]

Well, I've never had that feeling that the clicker makes a dog not interactive with me. But I do loads of interacting while training besides using a clicker. In fact, I don't use a clicker for everything anyhow. So, if someone uses no other form of communication....no body language, no commands, no rough and tumble praise, no fun and only walks along click/treat, I can see your point. LOL. It's just another little tool to add to my bag of tricks.

 

[amymarley]

There is nothing wrong with anything above. If it works for you and your dog, and you both enjoy it, that's wonderful. Again, there is no black or white with training, everyone and every dog just has to find their "nitch" and see what works.
Amy

 

[Doberluv]

I agree. One has to be comfortable with what they're doing and they have to jive with their dog. I find that one mistake I have a strong tendancy toward is talking too much to my dogs when training....too much feed back, a lot of stuff that makes no sense to the dog and probably confuses them. I'm just such a primate...jabber, jabber, jabber. I really need someone to talk to. LOL.

 

[amymarley]

Dober...you just need a good preening (regarding primates) lol.