Proper use of a shock collar

[ToscasMom]

I really never even saw a shock collar except in photos. I think though that any kind of shock would have turned my dog into a cowering dog. I mean she feels bad if I even slightly raise my voice to her in the wrong tone. I really don't think I could get used to a tool like that. That's one reason why I would never consider an undergound fence either. But then what I know about training other people's dogs I could probably write down on the back of a postage stamp. I used a prong collar at one point in her training, and others thought that was cruel too. So I guess all of these tools may have their place as long as the person using them actually KNOWs the place.

 

[DanL]

Mel, that is a great example of when to use a tool to help you situation. I believe that many different "adversive" tools, when used properly and in the right situation, can help otherwise difficult behaviors to be fixed.

 

[Julie]

My husband and I have trained our two labs for waterfowl retrieving and dove retrieving. The only time we have used a shock collar is to prevent our dogs from chasing farm animals...that would quickly get a dog shot, and alot of our hunting is on farms or near farms. We have no problems with our dogs chasing them now.
I am pleased with us being able to do all the "hunt training" without a shock collar, as the majority of hunters (that I have seen) do shock their dogs repeatedly during training and hunting. We don't even have a shock collar anymore, and very rarely used it for training our dogs in the art of hunting/retrieving. In our case, with our dogs... positive reinforcement actually showed our dogs what we wanted them to do.... and it worked! There are several things we don't expect of them, that owners do expect in field trials... But we don't do that, so we don't care... One of them is I don't expect my dog to come out the same way he went in... I expect him to go the shortest distance in the water, so he/she is in the water the least amount of time...when we hunt, it is usually harsh conditions and the least amount of time in freezing water the better! And they were NEVER FF... another training I don't exactly agree with.

 

[Dreeza]

I just posted my experience with an e-collar down under the training threads.

Dreeza, in all honesty, your post does disturb me some. First of all, I don't know of any "behaviorist" (and I use that term as a trained behaviorist with a PhD in behaviorism - as it should be, in my opinion) who would use a shock collar as the basis for training a dog. And then for him to say your dog is having seizures and yet SHOCK is the method to train? That just seems completely wrong. And it sounds like shock is used purely as a punishment and not in a way that encourages learning (such as the negative reinforcement method I described in my post in the training section).

Sorry, i didnt explain enough Not ACTUAL seizures...just seizure like. He was more or less comparing him to someone who gets a seizure, and is unable to control their movements during that episode. And like something, say alcohol, may trigger seizures in a person, excessive excitement triggers Oakley's "episodes". The goal was to teach Oakley to control his excitement levels...

I just read your post...Oakley was trained incredibly similar to what you described actually! We also use the 'continuous' button, and let it up once he makes any kind of move that indicates he is about to follow the command. My evil aunt thinks its okay to use it for things like getting him to stop barking...i cant tell you how many times i have tried to explain to her that doing so would destroy his training...cause Oakley has NO command to stop barking...so the poor boy would be so confused since technically, he isn't doing anything wrong. She also wanted to shock him when we discovered he was able to CLIMB his fence (mind you, oakley is barely 30 lbs, and his fence is about 7ft tall :yikes: ).

Sorry, im getting off track...i just wanted to demonstrate that bad behaviors do NOT receive a shock...instead, we find other ways....like putting chicken wire on the top of his fence in such away that prevents him from climbing over... (ok, that sounds dangerous...but its just hard to explain...its not, lol)

You describe a dog with some huge problems but it sounds like no one truly tried any other training method .. he went directly to a trainer who chose to use shock. Yes, I'm sure he learned control - who wouldn't, in order to avoid shock? But the fact that you have to put the collar on him every day in order to maintain that control tells me that he is only responding to the collar and is not truly trained. A trained dog should not have to continue to wear a corrective device all the time. He hasn't been trained to do anything but avoid the correction.

Sorry, once again, i was trying to make my post short (which obviously didnt work out well anyways!). He attended obedience school within a few weeks of getting him. He learned most of the commands just fine, but the trainer in the class wouldnt allow him to enter another one of her classes because of the problems he was having (he was getting WAY too distracted by the other dogs). She was the one who recommended us to the animal behaviorist.

We dont have to put a collar on him every day actually...I've taken him on off leash walks many, many times without it. I honestly couldnt tell you how often he wears it, cause i am at school, and he is at home. My bro chooses to keep it on him more often, i know...but that if for a kinda stupid reason: Where we live, there is technically a leash law. We have actually had a police (on a bike) stop and tell us how well behaved Oakley was (we were so scared we were gonna get a fine!!!)...he said nothing about him being off leash. Anyways, we keep it on him, cause we figure we can get out of a ticket if there is an electronic "leash" on him :lol-sign:

I'm sure, if he has to wear the collar every time before you take him anywhere, that he does react to the collar - the same way my dogs react to me picking up my keys or putting on my shoes. Dogs will react to the signals that they connect with getting to go do things even if those signals are part of a level of correction. It doesn't mean he LIKES the collar. It means he doesn't know any different and to him the shock is a part of his life (sounds kind of pitiful, doesn't it?).

While I do think there are occasional valid reasons for using a corrective collar such as a shock collar, to use it as the basis for training is hugely unfair to a dog. In your case it truly doesn't sound like your dog had any other options offered. As you said, you were inexperienced and you went to someone who told you his training method (shock) was valid even though your dog appeared to have seizures. I'm sorry that you feel you have to continue to use the shock collar on a regular basis .. it can't be pleasant to your dog, especially when used at a level that is highly corrective.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

ha, yeah i know he associates it with going outside...i just didnt really think of that as a bad thing...

Like i said, he rarely gets shocked...

Also, i do think other options would have been better, but the inexperienced factor played a huge role...and an even bigger role was how to GET Oakley to training. At the time, my brother couldn't drive, and both of my parents work extremely long hours. And i can assure you, there is pretty much NADA around us in terms of training, so options were very limited. Things may have turned out different had I still been at home, cause then i could have driven, but it just was not the case.

thanks for your post! Hope that explains things better...


hehe, here is our highly absused dog...recovering from a hard day of play in front of a heat lamp...on my bed!!

 

[FoxyWench]

i personally have never used a shock collar, ive used VIBRATING collars for training on deaf dogs, but ive never used a shock collar.

that being said, i do belive like any tool in the right hands it can work well, in the wrong hands...devastating.

the best use ive seen thus far was used by a facility that trains dogs to find exotic animals in crates and lugage.
more specific, venemous snakes. Obviously they had to train the dogs not only to find the snakes but keep their distance when they do. because of how dangerous their finds can be these dogs were trained in such a way a shock collar was very effective.

the initial training had the shock collar on the dog and a harmless fake snake, the trainer said no when the dog intitally whent over too close if the dog continued to aproach the fake snake would "strike" out and the dog would get a shock.
the dogs quickly associated the coiled prestrike position as a danger warning.
the dogs are trained to find the snake then keep distance and bark to alert the handler to come over and deal with a potentially deadly and dangerous animal.

 

[coteyr]

so do you 'approve' of my use of it??

Who am I to approve. It does sound very simular to what I described. The dog is in a situation where the desired behavior is more dangrious then the collar it's self. If treats and toys are ignored then positive influance would not work. You did see a trainer and the suggested the collar. Whatalternitives did you have. Physcally pickup the dog, that could get you seriously hurt and in some areas your dog would be put to sleep.

I like the snake handeling example. The use there is definatly fits, death v.s. shock. The training is done by professsinals and the risk is far greater if the Dog decidesto see what happens if it sniffs a snake.

 

[deanac24]

In my honest opinion, I do not believe in the shock collar. I think it is very cruel to dogs. There are other more effective ways to train a dog not to do something. I take my dog to obedience school and he does great.

 

[Roxy's CD]

deanac- What exactly do you do with your dog?

While I agree that are many circumstances where the e-collar is NOT neccessary, for some there are times where it is.

I'm sure, well not totally 100% sure, but have thought, that are some "positive" trainers out there (even the "positive" trainers do use negative punishment) that could have helped me with Roxy's problem.

I'm not an experienced trainer, and it's possible that perhaps I wasn't executing the positive methods properly. Regardless, the e-collar that was used for one session has helped ROXY and I greatly. I told myself and drilled it to myself before I even got it, what it would be used for and nothing more.

The collar pushers out there will try and make you use it for everything. I wouldn't allow myself or Roxy to be pushed or persuaded. I used it for what I wanted to use it for and saw results.

Sure I could've left it alone, and allowed her to continue her behaviuors, but I'll tell you what a relief it is now, if someone approaches Roxy to use the command "watch me" and not have to worry about her snapping, biting or snarling at the oncoming stranger.

The collar was not used in excess, for what is was used for, it's debatable and has been debated many times over.

I think the bottom line is: I didn't abuse it, Roxy wasn't physically/mentally injured/scarred, it in no way lessened our bond and most importantly I SAW RESULTS. Long term results, seeing as the collar was used MONTHS ago, and hasn't been used for that specific reasoning since.

It's definitely not for every dog, and it's definitely not for every person out there that wants to train their dog to heel or sit.