Proin--Killer of Dogs!! (Incontinence Drug)

[Doberluv]

I agree with GO. I've also had two dogs on that for incontinence and never had any problems. There are always going to be rare side effects of just about any drug. But the key word is "rare."

Persistent leaking of urine can lead to more problems, such as infections from constant licking and the burn from constant urine on the skin, vaginitis and skin ulcers. It's also distressing to dogs. I noticed that bewildered and anxious expression in my own.

It's a shame those dogs were affected adversely by the drug, but that happens with most drugs...there will be a small percentage of patients who experience the rare side effects. If the vast majority of patients who take the drug benefit from it, with no bad side effects, the drug will stay on the market.

DogAware.com Articles: Incontinence in Dogs

 

[cherylcmartin]

Doberluv,

I'm not sure what you mean by 'rare side effects'. I have personally received 20 emails from ProIn victims since I lost Jasmine to it 09-09-09!! Just 2 this past week so I do not consider this rare.

Yes, it might help some but others it kills-strokes instantly or like Jasmine it manifested her underlying kidney disease and killed her. FDA banned Dexatrim (Phenylpropanolamine) for humans for it was causing strokes in young women, it should be banned for animals for it is causing strokes!! Are you saying you do not value your dog's life as much as you do a humans? Jasmine was not 'just a dog"!

Our pets deserve the best medical treatment, just like we humans do and if something is no longer available for it "sometimes" harms humans, it should no longer be available for it 'sometimes' harms dogs. ProIn needs to be banned.

I know how she was before I gave it to her and I know how she reacted the very next morning.

I promised Jasmine that I would continue to spread her story and fight that this drug be banned. JMO!

Cheryl and Angel Jasmine
Jasmine was loved
Jasmine was given Proin
Jasmine is gone
Jasmine's Rainbow Residency at RainbowsBridge.com

 

[MandyPug]

The thing about side effect emails online is you ALWAYS hear the bad about everything especially drugs. People are so ready to complain about things but they're not going to voice how well their pet is doing because frankly they don't need to. PPA works, there are side effects to every drug. No drug is 100% safe.

People will always hoot and holler about how something/someone wronged them, but rarely will people speak up to praise anything online especially. That is why we hear so much "horror stories" about drugs like PPA and Convenia. Really the negative stories are just one drop in the ocean of pets that have used these drugs in the big picture.

 

[elegy]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'rare side effects'. I have personally received 20 emails from ProIn victims since I lost Jasmine to it 09-09-09!! Just 2 this past week so I do not consider this rare.

well sure. if you're upset about something, you speak out about it. if you're happy and have no issues with it, you don't. that's just human nature. given the number of dogs who have been treated with proin in all the years that it's been in use, yeah, i'd say twenty is pretty rare, especially since there is always (at least in my mind) question whether they really did die from the medication or if it was just the easiest thing to blame. correlation is not necessarily causation and all.

 

[Doberluv]

Cheryl,

A drug or anything doesn't have to be banned for people not to use it. Continue to spread your word/opinion/news and fight for what you believe in. That's a good thing. Some people will choose not to use it. Some people will have a different opinion and continue to use it. That's the way of the world.

No, I don't value my dogs' lives at all. You should see what crappy care I gave my Doberman when he was so ill with several diseases. I only spent upward of $12,000 in a year on his liver disease maintenance, plus close to $3,000 over a few days in a high tech veterinary specialty hospital in Seattle, having many procedures done, from laproscopy, ultrasound, MRI, biopsies, blood transfusions, plasma transfusions, round the clock intensive care. This is not to mention the vets consulted with at Washington State University Vet School for another illness, and not to mention the care when he was diagnosed with yet another illness...cancer. This is not to mention how little I care for my dogs that I didn't sob unconsoleably for months and months after he died and how I went into a deep, deep depression for almost a year, how I wrote many poems, pouring my guts out, that would make you cry yourself to sleep and make the angels weep. He was my best friend in all the world and no dog will ever, ever replace him.

You are the epitome of a real jack ass, implying that I don't value my dogs lives! Where do you get off? Why don't you go fight for your cause instead of insulting people with your manipulative mind games.

 

[elegy]

No, I don't value my dogs' lives at all. You should see what crappy care I gave my Doberman when he was so ill with several diseases.

luce takes proin AND rimadyl :yikes: so clearly i value her life even less

 

[eddieq]

Are you saying you do not value your dog's life as much as you do a humans?

You know, Cheryl, I was going to post that you clearly have no idea who you are talking to, but then Doberluv chimed in and said it much better. We all cried over the loss of her beloved Lyric here. For you to even remotely imply that she values the life of her dogs less than humans shows how clouded your views are.

Clearly you feel strongly about this drug. I wish you good luck in your fight. Attacking people with a differing view point is not the way to win converts to your cause.

 

[JennSLK]

So you received 20 emails. That sucks that 20 people's dogs died POSIBLY because of the drug. Really it does. However, 20 peole have emailed you so a bunch havent. Lets say 80% havent. Or even more. How many thousands of dogs int he US are on this drug?

 

[Doberluv]

You know, Cheryl, I was going to post that you clearly have no idea who you are talking to, but then Doberluv chimed in and said it much better. We all cried over the loss of her beloved Lyric here. For you to even remotely imply that she values the life of her dogs less than humans shows how clouded your views are.

Clearly you feel strongly about this drug. I wish you good luck in your fight. Attacking people with a differing view point is not the way to win converts to your cause.

Thank you Eddie. That was sweet.

 

[Doberluv]

So you received 20 emails. That sucks that 20 people's dogs died POSIBLY because of the drug. Really it does. However, 20 peole have emailed you so a bunch havent. Lets say 80% havent. Or even more. How many thousands of dogs int he US are on this drug?

Exactly. Let's have some science here...or even a little common sense.

 

[corgipower]

(from many different web sources)

Because of its effects in elevating heart rate and blood pressure, phenylpropanolamine should not be used in patients with heart disease or pre-existing high blood pressure.

This includes patients with glaucoma, hyperthyroidism, and diabetes mellitus as well as those with certain types of cardiovascular disease.

How many of the dogs that died on PPA had these other conditions?

Also, in one of the posts that I skimmed I saw someone mentioned their dog had kidney failure after being put on PPA. Did they rule out all chance that kidney failure was the cause of the incontinence in the first place before blaming PPA for kidney failure?

When Ares became incontinent, the vet suggested PPA for him. I did a lot of web searching about it. The thread linked to in the OP was the only source I could find with these stories which makes me suspect that it's some form of...mmm...maybe Bandwagon effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia?

These drugs may be OK to use in otherwise healthy animals. But when you add in certain health problems, the risk of serious adverse effects increases quite a bit. When such complications occur, everyone suddenly blames the drug without looking at the whole picture - what other health problems were there, what other meds was the dog on, etc.

 

[Renee750il]

Are you saying you do not value your dog's life as much as you do a humans? Jasmine was not 'just a dog"!

That's not a fair statement, especially to people you don't know --

BUT -- It is ALWAYS good to question drugs and treatments and a good vet should encourage it and respect your doubts and fears and address them.

"Show me the science" doesn't mean much to someone who has lost their companion suddenly when the immediate evidence points to a drug reaction. There have been too many cases of drugs for human use that have been okayed for use being pulled suddenly because the "rare" side effects weren't so rare and the approvals were hustled through -- for whatever reason. Veterinary drugs aren't nearly so tightly controlled.

 

[Doberluv]

I absolutely agree that it is always prudent to question.

I wouldn't dream of forcing a drug company to take their drug off the market because a handful of dogs got sick or died at the same time they were taking the drug. If that's all there is to go on, I'm sorry, but that's not science and science is not about coming to conclusions without going through a process. From the percentage of dogs that became ill or died while taking the drug, how many were proven to not have had something else kill them coincidentally? Proven. Are they sure it was the drug and not the dog's own immune response to the drug? (in which case, that is not the drug's fault, but an immune response....an over-reactive one) Before a drug company is penalized by having to discontinue a drug, there has to be some legal process and that is usually based on proof or enough reasonable doubt to satisfy whoever decides these things, not speculation and possible coincidences. Is it caused by or correlated with...as someone said? Parsimony does not mean jumping to conclusions based on a few cases and some speculation. A handful or small percentage of dogs that had a bad response, compared to a huge percentage of dogs on the drug who do fine is not a reason to automatically yank a drug off the shelves...not until there is something more definitive.

Again, if someone is provided the information, the side effects, the risks vs. the benefits, they can make their own decision. I don't know what the argument is here.

 

[Doberluv]

(from many different web sources)


How many of the dogs that died on PPA had these other conditions?

Also, in one of the posts that I skimmed I saw someone mentioned their dog had kidney failure after being put on PPA. Did they rule out all chance that kidney failure was the cause of the incontinence in the first place before blaming PPA for kidney failure?

When Ares became incontinent, the vet suggested PPA for him. I did a lot of web searching about it. The thread linked to in the OP was the only source I could find with these stories which makes me suspect that it's some form of...mmm...maybe Bandwagon effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia?

These drugs may be OK to use in otherwise healthy animals. But when you add in certain health problems, the risk of serious adverse effects increases quite a bit. When such complications occur, everyone suddenly blames the drug without looking at the whole picture - what other health problems were there, what other meds was the dog on, etc.

Well put. You explained it much better than I could. Yes indeed, incontinence commonly causes kidney issues...stones, failure etc, among other things. But that's what I'm talking about when I say, "unparsimonous" or "not scientific"....jumping to conclusions, making huge leaps of logic, without the whole picture.

 

[~Jessie~]

Lilly, our Dalmatian (family dog while growing up), was on Proin for years before she died... from 1999 until 2004. She never suffered any ill effects, and her incontinence completely went away.

How dare anyone come on here and say we don't care about our dogs. Carrie is one of the best pet owners I've had the pleasure of "knowing." She's always on here and is very knowledgable and helpful.

I like to make my own decisions for myself without being told I'm a bad pet owner or idiot for making these decisions. You do what's best for your dogs, and I'll do what's best for mine.

Hmph.

 

[release the hounds]

boy how things would change if someone was talking about ecollars

 

[Corky/Max]

Ya! It All Really Sucks!

So you received 20 emails. That sucks that 20 people's dogs died POSIBLY because of the drug. Really it does. However, 20 peole have emailed you so a bunch havent. Lets say 80% havent. Or even more. How many thousands of dogs int he US are on this drug?

I am not sure what you are saying here, but just because Cheryl received 20 emails!! What does that mean--Surely IT IS A SMALL AMOUNT---You don't think every person who had a dog die because of Proin would be emailing her! She is a person who had her dog die because of this Proin, not an organization, etc. I think it is amazing that she received so many emails from other people that had the same thing happen to them. But they should be emailing the 'RIGHT PLACES' with this info so statistics could be noted and something done about Proin. It appears that dog owners who had a dog die of this are not doing this and it is a shame. Furthermore how many dogs that died because of this are even known about?! The drug company is not going to want you to know! And the vet is not going to even admit (in most cases)to anything either so no reporting from them either. It is up to the dead dog's owner to get the word out and why they aren't is beyond me---Is it because the vet convinced them that NO, it couldn't possibly be from the proin---or are the pet owners to filled with grief at the time it should be reported that they don't do it!? Or and since their dog is already dead they don't bother?!:doh:
There is a lot of politics and greed involved in this 'dirty can of worms' in all this too!!

 

[Corky/Max]

(from many different web sources)


How many of the dogs that died on PPA had these other conditions?

Also, in one of the posts that I skimmed I saw someone mentioned their dog had kidney failure after being put on PPA. Did they rule out all chance that kidney failure was the cause of the incontinence in the first place before blaming PPA for kidney failure? And this is part of the problem--It should of been ruled out by the vet with blood tests to check for kidney problems before prescribing Proin!--and too many vets are not doing this or the owner is bypassing because of the cost!! And what a cost it could be ---a dead dog!! It should be 'law' that Proin not be prescribed unless it has had passing blood tests, etc! And the vet is suppose to hand out an info sheet on side effects and signs to be aware of.---Fact is I think the pharmeceutical company tells the vet to give out these but many don't! Only thing is --a lot of the time 1 pill may kill!

When Ares became incontinent, the vet suggested PPA for him. I did a lot of web searching about it. The thread linked to in the OP was the only source I could find with these stories which makes me suspect that it's some form of...mmm...maybe Bandwagon effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia?

These drugs may be OK to use in otherwise healthy animals. But when you add in certain health problems, the risk of serious adverse effects increases quite a bit. When such complications occur, everyone suddenly blames the drug without looking at the whole picture - what other health problems were there, what other meds was the dog on, etc. This is the vet's (too many bad vets out there) job and the dog owner's responsibility to see that it is done.

It does seem to target certain older female dogs.

 

[cherylcmartin]

I do believe at this forum a newbie gets chastized for an opinion. I did not come here to receive abuse by some of the remarks made by other posters. I did not state ProIn kills every dog. I KNOW it killed mine. And Jasmine was not the first nor will she be the last until: vets are required to give us a Client Information Sheet with each and every drug we receive and we are given the right to make a choice. Yes I have received 20 emails from owners who have lost their pets (since 09-09-09) but that does not say that there were not 20 or more before my Jasmine took it and died. I also have received emails from ppl thanking me for warning them about the adverse reaction after they read Jasmine's story. Other forums, not just the one listed have testimont to the results of using ProIn and yes, some it helps, some it kills. Plain and simple.

 

[Corky/Max]

I absolutely agree that it is always prudent to question.

I wouldn't dream of forcing a drug company to take their drug off the market because a handful of dogs got sick or died at the same time they were taking the drug. If that's all there is to go on, I'm sorry, but that's not science and science is not about coming to conclusions without going through a process. From the percentage of dogs that became ill or died while taking the drug, how many were proven to not have had something else kill them coincidentally? Proven. Are they sure it was the drug and not the dog's own immune response to the drug? (in which case, that is not the drug's fault, but an immune response....an over-reactive one) Before a drug company is penalized by having to discontinue a drug, there has to be some legal process and that is usually based on proof or enough reasonable doubt to satisfy whoever decides these things, not speculation and possible coincidences. Is it caused by or correlated with...as someone said? Parsimony does not mean jumping to conclusions based on a few cases and some speculation. A handful or small percentage of dogs that had a bad response, compared to a huge percentage of dogs on the drug who do fine is not a reason to automatically yank a drug off the shelves...not until there is something more definitive.

Again, if someone is provided the information, the side effects, the risks vs. the benefits, they can make their own decision. I don't know what the argument is here.

So everyone knows--I did not come here to start any argument. I just wanted people to be aware of the possibility of what this Proin can do--to maybe stop another dog from dying. I love dogs----I am 'in it' for the dogs. I actually prefer dogs to people most of the time. My Corky had to be put down just 6 weeks ago today--nothing to do with Proin. I'd give almost anything to have him back!