Potato vs. Grain

[Maxy24]

I know a lot of people like to feed grain free. But I also know in order to be a dry food there needs to be a decent amount of carbohydrate in the food in order for it to actually be a hard, crunchy kibble. That is why grain free dry foods MUST contain something like potato, sweet potato, or in one case, tapioca. This is why I don't feed my cats dry food.

So, I'm curious, is there actually something better about potato as compared to, say rice or brown rice? Because as I was walking down the pet food isle looking for a new food for Tucker, I knew I wanted grain free. But then I wasn't sure it actually mattered because a grain free food, if it's chalk full of potato, could have more carbs than a food with a small amount of grains couldn't it? Then wouldn't the food with grains actually be a better product?

 

[MandyPug]

I know a lot of people like to feed grain free. But I also know in order to be a dry food there needs to be a decent amount of carbohydrate in the food in order for it to actually be a hard, crunchy kibble. That is why grain free dry foods MUST contain something like potato, sweet potato, or in one case, tapioca. This is why I don't feed my cats dry food.

So, I'm curious, is there actually something better about potato as compared to, say rice or brown rice? Because as I was walking down the pet food isle looking for a new food for Tucker, I knew I wanted grain free. But then I wasn't sure it actually mattered because a grain free food, if it's chalk full of potato, could have more carbs than a food with a small amount of grains couldn't it? Then wouldn't the food with grains actually be a better product?

There are more allergy cases to grains than potatoes/sweet potatoes/peas/tapioca. That's about it. There's also the gluten, which isn't there with rice but it is with things like oats. Depends all on the dog.

You don't want something chock full of grains or full of potatoes, you want meat meat meat first and foremost and the smallest amount of carbs until you get into the allergy cases then that becomes your priority.

 

[*blackrose]

I was wondering about this, too. I am SO not switching Chloe off of the TOTW flavor I have her on because she is finally having solid, dark poops - and they are small, and she's not going as much as she used too! Plus, she actually eats the food. Hooray!

But, I was wondering about the cats (and ferrets), whether or not grain free was such a priority, or if grains like rice was better if it had more meat content in the first few ingredients (versus TOTW, which has potatoes and peas listed as two an three, I think).

 

[Maxy24]

But see I think ingredient lists can be deceiving. Just because one food has Chicken meal as the first ingredient followed by rice doesn't mean it has less meat than a food which has chicken meal, chicken, and duck followed by potato (or whatever carb source). In total the three meats in the second food could add up to the same or less than the first food.
Plus a lot of the foods split up things, especially potato and other starch, into multiple ingredients. It'll have potato, sweet potato, potato protein, peas, pea starch, pea protein, etc. So that gets annoying too.

So to me looking at actual carbohydrate levels would be more helpful than looking at ingredients. Unfortunately most foods don't tell you about carbohydrate levels. I've heard you can figure this out yourself but when I do it to foods that also say their carb levels the numbers come out different from the listed amount. So I don't know which is accurate.

 

[JessLough]

I was wondering about this, too. I am SO not switching Chloe off of the TOTW flavor I have her on because she is finally having solid, dark poops - and they are small, and she's not going as much as she used too! Plus, she actually eats the food. Hooray!

But, I was wondering about the cats (and ferrets), whether or not grain free was such a priority, or if grains like rice was better if it had more meat content in the first few ingredients (versus TOTW, which has potatoes and peas listed as two an three, I think).

Ferrets are completely different. Ferrets CANNOT digest anything but meat. They are obligate Carnivores, anything else just comes right back out, and never gets digested. Grains are horrible for ferrets, and especially when ferrets get older, they just cannot handle the grains at all. Grains do nothing but cause health problems, IMHO.

 

[Brattina88]

From all my research and findings, and that of my vet, grain free and ferrets IS a priority The number of ferrets who have diseases such as insulinoma are higher in ferrets who eat a poorer diet

I'll quote Bob Church

The key word is risk, which is why I think some people have a hard time
accepting the potential injuries that a long term diet of carbohydrates
can cause to the ferret's pancreas.
.................
Another risk factor is the length of time eating carbohydrates. The
longer the ferret eats carbohydrates, the higher the relative risk.
Ferrets switched from a carbohydrate diet to an all-meat diet had a
lower risk of disease
.....................
A third factor is the carbohydrate load. Foods with higher carbohydrate
loads (amounts of digestible carbohydrates) probably place the ferret
at higher risk for insulinoma.

This was the easiest access link I could find to the whole thing [Insulinom] Diet observations by Bob Church


As for the OP, IMO, I think too much of either is no good... The DogFoodProject says: "A moderate amount of quality grade grains contributes many nutrients as well as fiber. In many inexpensive dog food products, grains and grain byproducts are mainly used as a cheap (and incomplete) source of protein, not because of their carbohydrate content." But how are you supposed to know, like you said, they don't list carbohydrate levels. I wonder if you e-mailed the companies would -- no, scratch that -- could they tell you ??
opcorn:

 

[*blackrose]

Ferrets are completely different. Ferrets CANNOT digest anything but meat. They are obligate Carnivores, anything else just comes right back out, and never gets digested. Grains are horrible for ferrets, and especially when ferrets get older, they just cannot handle the grains at all. Grains do nothing but cause health problems, IMHO.

Cats are the same way, though. And besides the grain free Zupreem (which is basically what I feed - TOTW has two ingredients switched in order, I think, in comparison), I don't think I've seen one ferret diet that is grain free.

And if they are still getting carbs from the potatoes and such...I don't know. Are carbs from high quality grains much worse than from potatoes, if no allergies are involved? Many times the "grain free" food is more expensive, but if you are getting the same amount of carbs and meat content in a "grain" food...

And for that matter, what about the fruits and veggies listed towards the end in foods like EVO or TOTW? Good? Bad? Indifferent? For dogs I don't think they pose a problem, but for animals like cats and ferrets that can't digest things like that...

 

[JessLough]

Cats are the same way, though. And besides the grain free Zupreem (which is basically what I feed - TOTW has two ingredients switched in order, I think, in comparison), I don't think I've seen one ferret diet that is grain free.

And if they are still getting carbs from the potatoes and such...I don't know. Are carbs from high quality grains much worse than from potatoes, if no allergies are involved? Many times the "grain free" food is more expensive, but if you are getting the same amount of carbs and meat content in a "grain" food...

And for that matter, what about the fruits and veggies listed towards the end in foods like EVO or TOTW? Good? Bad? Indifferent? For dogs I don't think they pose a problem, but for animals like cats and ferrets that can't digest things like that...

Oh, I will be the first to say it, commercial ferret food is absolute crap. EVO ferret is grain free. But, nobody knows WHAT ferrets need to eat, 100%. No kibble is perfect, but you do the best. EVO is cheaper for me to feed than Zupreem. And in the long run, it will save me money in vet bills.

 

[Maxy24]

That's why I like Before grain and evo 95% wet food for cats, no random fruits and veggies. Wet foods don't need carbs like dry foods do, which is why it's preferred for cats (though some wet foods still load up on carbs because they are low quality), and essential for diabetic cats (though if they never ate dry in the first place chances are they wouldn't have diabetes).

 

[Brattina88]

Maxy - thanks for posting that -- I didn't know that about those canned foods. I am not much of a cat person, so I can't really comment on that at all. But I could use the canned for ferret soupies!

Oh, I will be the first to say it, commercial ferret food is absolute crap.

That's why I gave up and fed raw :rofl1: :rofl1:

The sugar concerns that I always read about, and fruits and all that even in the kibbles that I think are good (like EVO, BG, Zupreem) have them, so that led me to start researching the raw diet, and I found the Holistic Ferret Forum, got a mentor, and then got a ferret and switched her LOL

But I still do think that those brands are MUCH better than a lot of the others I've seen, by far.

 

[Claybuster]

I know a lot of people like to feed grain free. But I also know in order to be a dry food there needs to be a decent amount of carbohydrate in the food in order for it to actually be a hard, crunchy kibble. That is why grain free dry foods MUST contain something like potato, sweet potato, or in one case, tapioca. This is why I don't feed my cats dry food.
So, I'm curious, is there actually something better about potato as compared to, say rice or brown rice? Because as I was walking down the pet food isle looking for a new food for Tucker, I knew I wanted grain free. But then I wasn't sure it actually mattered because a grain free food, if it's chalk full of potato, could have more carbs than a food with a small amount of grains couldn't it? Then wouldn't the food with grains actually be a better product?

I think white rice is a much better option than potato. Grain free is a marketing gimmick. Just like you mentioned above, the product must have enough carb in it to make it stick together and form a kibble when steamed or baked, otherwise it would fall apart. Knowing that, a fiber swap from grain to plant fiber in the food yields no advantage to the dog. Potato is not an ideal ingredient in dog food and I think one that should be avoided. My dog food manufacturer would advise to stay away from potato....quote...

One last review of the ingredients that are commonly included in both dog and cat foods containing these toxins are: soybeans, beet pulp, sorghum, tomato pomace, alfalfa, peas, beans, oats, potatoes, garlic, and yucca. None of these ingredients are included in Abady’s dog and cat foods.

 

[Maxy24]

I think grain free might be a gimmick for some companies, but not all. The companies who say "grain free" but still have like 20% protein, by products, and more potato or peas than meat are obviously bad for your dog regardless of whether or not they have grains.
But some foods actually make their foods grain free in order to have less carbs and more meat protein, in this case it's not a gimmick. The question I guess is, how do you find out which foods are carb heavy and which are not?


What I have since learned:

High quality grain free foods are considered better because they have higher protein (if they do not then, like Claybuster said, you might consider them a gimmick). Because they use potato and not grains you can be pretty sure most/all of that protein is from meat because potato is very protein deficient. Grains on the other hands have higher levels of protein, so in a grain inclusive food, unless stated by the company, you have no idea how much of the protein on the label comes from meat and how much comes from grain.
This is of course assuming the grain free food doesn't have non-grain, non-meat protein sources like peas or beans.

However I also learned potato is higher on the glycemic index than many other carb sources, so that's not good if you worry about diabetes.

 

[Dekka]

Sweet potato has more nutrition in it. I would rather see that vs 'empty' carbs. Dash seems to need some carbs to keep weight on. The rest of them do better on a strictly meat diet.

claybuster> what toxins are those? Its interesting abady says that, unless they have stopped using 4D meats?

 

[Kat09Tails]

So, I'm curious, is there actually something better about potato as compared to, say rice or brown rice? Because as I was walking down the pet food isle looking for a new food for Tucker, I knew I wanted grain free. But then I wasn't sure it actually mattered because a grain free food, if it's chalk full of potato, could have more carbs than a food with a small amount of grains couldn't it? Then wouldn't the food with grains actually be a better product?

It really depends on the dog. Just like what will make one person look great (like a vegetarian diet) will make another person violently ill, dogs do not have identical reactions to the same diets with different fillers. Some do very well with a decent amount of carbs, and others just plain don't.
Personally I'll opt for the a listed potato over grain fillers every time because usually the source for that whole potato product is a lot cleaner than the overwhelming amount of mold contaminated grain sold as animal feed after it's rejected out of the human food supply.

 

[MafiaPrincess]

claybuster> what toxins are those? Its interesting abady says that, unless they have stopped using 4D meats?

What's interesting is their ingredients in general. I wouldn't feed it even with their 'assurances'. Their classic formula: Main Panel

 

[Zoom]

Abady cures AIDS, though, didn't you know?

I would much rather see something like quinoa or sweet potato over any type of rice or regular potato, because of the glycemic index of the latter two. Dry food does need some type of binder to make it hold together, yes, but there are options as to what that binder can be. And as was mentioned, not every dog is going to do well on the same formulation or brand.

Mostly, dogs do not really benefit from the cereal grains and even in grain free, end up being filler.

 

[Romy]

Part of the reason I like some of the grain free foods is they do tend to have more animal protein than other formulas. Using TOTW as an example, their grain free formulas are in the 30%-ish range, vs. their line Diamond Naturals which tops out around 25%, and then you know some of that protein is coming from the grains in addition to meat.

So in the end, even though potato or sweet potato is used as filler I think you probably get more usable protein in most grain free formulas.

 

[~Dixie's_Mom~]

I was wondering about this, too. I am SO not switching Chloe off of the TOTW flavor I have her on because she is finally having solid, dark poops - and they are small, and she's not going as much as she used too! Plus, she actually eats the food. Hooray!

But, I was wondering about the cats (and ferrets), whether or not grain free was such a priority, or if grains like rice was better if it had more meat content in the first few ingredients (versus TOTW, which has potatoes and peas listed as two an three, I think).

What flavor of TOTW do you have her on? My Chloe also has issues with actually EATING her food - though thankfully she does have solid dark poops. Violet however does NOT have solid poops, and hasn't since we got her. We're switching to TOTW in the next few days, so I'm interested to know what kind you feed your dogs!