Please help. I just want my puppy to be happy

[smkie]

Bronki and mary always played the most polite game of tug..if you watched Barb's feed Jake..she would tug very gently but not imply that she was taking the toy away..that is the way i always played with my dogs..they grew up to play the same way..it was sweet to watch and didn't knock the furniture over. Victor had obviously been taught to be very aggressive when he came. He drew blood when he played tug..became way to aggressive trying to snatch the toy away especially the frisbee. He was 5 months old and it took a good two months at least to turn that around and to be where i felt he was safe enuff to play with Hyia.
as to crating for hours at a time..there is no way i would ever suggest this. I have seen cage craziness..caused by this..there is no stimulation..no outlet for a young dog. It isn't natural at all. You would be far better off looking around your neighborhood and seeing if there is someone home that would "puppysit" or checking into doggy daycare. Old boss said that a dog is like a child only they stop maturing around the "human mental age" of 7. That has been my conclusion as well. the smarter the dog the more likely the dog will act out being destructive when they are bored and alone. Then you add the personality differences and if they have seperation anx or not. It took Mary two years before i could feel she would be fine left at home. Doggy day care is becoming more popular and even some businesses are adding it along with their child daycare..but if that isn't available, you would be suprised at how many housewives out there could use a bit of extra cash and would be more then willing to add your dog to their daily routine. You can put out a flyer in your neighborhood..IF i didn't have GG and her yard available to me at all times tht is what i would do. I coudln't imagine putting Victor in a crate for even one hour let alone 8. He is active, imaginative, and very very smart. I do believe it would break his spirit completely. I haven't read all the posts so i don't know if you said where you got your dog from..that could be a factor too.

 

[sheps4me]

The only neighbor who would have been happy to take care of him really gets him all revved up and teaches him habits that I don't like such as jumping and biting. So that's not an option. A dog walker, I haven't seen any in my area and I have been there for almost 3 years. The only option I am left with is keep doing what I am doing now; drive home during my lunch to spend 20 - 25 minutes with him.
It's a lot of driving but I'll do everything I can to keep him happy.

Still, if you have any suggestions, ideas or experiences, please let me know.

To all of you out there, thank you.
JR

Have you looked in the phone book for a pet-sitter? If there are no listings, you could contact a local obedience school or club and ask if they can recommend a pet-sitter to come in at lunch time and take your pup for a walk.

 

[bridey_01]

The terms "dominance" and "pack order" are usually only used by green trainers, and even they get over them pretty fast. Tug of war is an excellent way to reward good behaviour, stimulate your dog, build confidence and increase the bond. It was once thought that it encouraged "biting" and "dominance" but that myth has long been dispelled (partly because after winning the prize, most dogs will come up to you, begging you to take hold again, or they may jump around out of reach in a playful manner).

 

[gaddylovesdogs]

I do believe dogs can become dominant and I believe that some breeds are more dominant than others. However, we have been playing tug-o-war with Colby ever since she was a puppy and she is an excellent dog. She loves tug, it's a great way to exercise her and just play. When I say, "drop it!" she drops the rag and lets me pick it up. It hasn't made her snappy. She is part terrier, and terriers can be nippy. If someone is doing something she doesn't like she'll either just ignore it or give a little grumble. Her absolute last resort is to snap her jaws.

 

[yuckaduck]

Well I can only speak for me and my dog. Yukon gets very aggressive and very dominant if you let him win tug of war. Drop it is not part of his vocabulary for that. Have him play fetch and he places the ball in my hand but play tug and it is world war three. I only play tug to teach him to bite and hang on. Part of his personal protection training and we just started yesterday. No tug near the kids because if they try to copy then there will be problems. Guess maybe it is dirrent with dogs that have extremely high prey drive.

 

[gaddylovesdogs]

Colby sometimes wins our wars, but I make sure that the last game I win. And I am the one who ends the game when I want to end it.

 

[Doberluv]

Well I can only speak for me and my dog. Yukon gets very aggressive and very dominant if you let him win tug of war. Drop it is not part of his vocabulary for that. Have him play fetch and he places the ball in my hand but play tug and it is world war three. I only play tug to teach him to bite and hang on. Part of his personal protection training and we just started yesterday. No tug near the kids because if they try to copy then there will be problems. Guess maybe it is dirrent with dogs that have extremely high prey drive.

There's more to it than meets the eye here. If he is becoming aggressive toward you when you're playing, then there's something wrong with the relationship. I don't mean that there's something totally wrong or that can't evolve into a more "correct" relationship, but a dog who knows his "place" and trusts his owner to be his leader will not become aggressive, no matter what kind of prey drive he has. My Doberman has a very high prey drive. But I am certainly not prey to him.

Dogs play tug of war all the time with eachother. It's a game. And it's a game when I play with my dog. It is true. When he "wins" (he doesn't even try very hard, I let him) he brings it back. "Hey, com'n let's play more."

Dogs aren't anymore dominant than a child who has been raised wrong and is demanding and has a sense of entitlement to a high degree or who doesn't understand respect or who his parents are, that they are his teachers and guides. They're spoiled and want their own way. Dogs naturally don't go around bullying others. They do squabble with members of their own rank over food and what not, but they don't challenge the one who guides. That comes from an unnatural relationship with their people, which has gone away from any resemblance to a social order that they require and the way in which that social order was developed. Dominance is not a trait. It is a relationship.


It concerns me that you are you teaching him "personal protection training" now. What degree of obedience training has he had? I think, from what I recall, your dog is not ready for that in that way and from what you describe above, it would be a huge mistake to teach him bite work if you can't play tug of war without him biting you aggressively. The recent history of his problems would make me wary. If he thinks he's in charge, bite work training is not something he is ready for.

 

[yuckaduck]

I am following my behaviouralist and my trainers advice and do exactly what they tell me too with Yukon. He has had a shaky past and not his fault, so I follow the words of the paid professionals right down to the last letter. THe idea is that working he is much happier and we have done as much obedience wise as we can so next step is to start tug of war. He gets extremely bitey when we play tug, I think really it is more play. He gets so excite and so hipped up that he just starts grabbing and 9 times out of 10 he grabs my hand. I am the only one in this house that he fully respects because I can get him to stop by raising my voice. My husband and kids are litter mates to him and they still are that. He seems to actually have more respect for my kids since they started hand feeding him with me then he does Marc. Marc never takes the time to work with him either and if he does not put the time in he will not get the results. That will be his problem! I just have to be careful that Yukon realizes when the game is over, he tends to keep trying to grab at me when I end the game. Like he thinks it will make me play with him again but instead it gets him put outside for a time out. When he comes in after 10 mins he is fine settled back down. My trainer says Yukon is extremely dominant and that he should never be allowed to win at tug of war because it will place him above us. We will continue with the trainer and the behaviouralist and see what turns up. We are also working the command off, which we hope will help with the tug games. He knows off to me do not jump, so he is learning that it means drop the tug toy or off whatever he is on. Started that command yesterday too. Hopefully in a few days he will ahve it and then we should see a hugh change in the game. He is a fast learner and by the end of the week I have no doubts that the grabbing will be stopped.

 

[Doberluv]

No offence intended, but I'd be looking for a new trainer. I wouldn't feel comfortable with a trainer who is basing her opinion on old, disproven myths which came about from unscientifc and inaccurate studies.... and pushing bite work with a dog who may not be temperamentally suited for that kind of training. But it does sound like he's coming along and probably is just overly exuberant. You can teach him to keep his teeth to himself. And I agree. He needs a job. There are lots of "jobs" for dogs.

 

[Whitedobelover]

i agree with doberluv because tug is not a going to hurt the dog you are the boss not the dog and if you allow the dog to be the boss then you will have problems such as dominance and so on....

 

[sheps4me]

I am following my behaviouralist and my trainers advice and do exactly what they tell me too with Yukon. He has had a shaky past and not his fault, so I follow the words of the paid professionals right down to the last letter.
My trainer says Yukon is extremely dominant and that he should never be allowed to win at tug of war because it will place him above us. We will continue with the trainer and the behaviouralist and see what turns up. We are also working the command off, which we hope will help with the tug games.

Considering Yukon's past, I think tug is a great way to build back his confidence and also establish some control on your part. But I agree with Doberluv...a "trainer" that says the dog should never win doesn't understand the game. Here's a great link to the rules and philosophies behind the game of "tug":
http://www.sfspca.org/behavior/dog_library/tug.pdf
Your dog should always win. Never allowing them to gain control of the tug is going to create frustration and resentment - and I would guess that you could see an increase in the grabbing and snapping at the toy, particularly in a high prey dog. The point of the game is to increase drive, burn energy and develop control - all at the same time. Trading for food or another toy is a good way to start teaching the "out". You'll also be amazed at how responsive Yukon is to obedience commands if you play tug for a minute, switch to obedience while maintaining a high state of drive, and then reward with another game of tug.

 

[sheps4me]

I only play tug to teach him to bite and hang on. Part of his personal protection training and we just started yesterday.

This is alarming. What do you mean by "personal protection"? Do you want a dog that barks when someone comes up the driveway (and most GSDs will do that anyway without any sort of "protection" training.) Or are you looking for a dog that will engage in a fight if a "bad guy" threatens you? I'm surprised that your trainer would even suggest protection training with Yukon, considering some of his past history and his behaviours. I'm not criticizing your dog, but it takes a certain temperament to become a protection dog, along with an extremely high level of training that must be maintained throughout the dog's life. I don't think the average person needs a "protection" dog at all - the size and bark from a GSD is deterrant enough.
Sorry, but your trainer sounds a bit questionable. Is this a person with GSD experience?

Guess maybe it is dirrent with dogs that have extremely high prey drive.

Are you saying that Yukon has extremely high drive? Tug is a very appropriate game for these types of dogs and they do win their tug. In fact, without a certain degree of prey drive, many dogs won't engage in the game at all.

 

[yuckaduck]

I am very happy with my trainer, he has been training german shepherds for a long time and he has never made me question him. Espically after the trainers and behaviouralists that I have been through in the past. I work closely with my trainer and my behaviouralist. Yukon is a high prey drive dog, his temperment test says extremely high prey drive. Right now my trainer has advised to not allow Yukon to yank the tug toy away from me, He is to never win and he is to hear a strong firm OFF if he gets grabby. That will also end the game and result in isloation time out for Yukon. I see improvements in Yukon's behaviour since working with this trainer and this behaviouralist and I am not looking to replace what finally has showen improvement. Yukon was on the verge of PTS, now he is a much happier and a much less aggressive dog. He needs to work and he needs to maintain his training, which we will be doing. We are doing personal protection training right now. We also want to expand to search, tracking, stuff that his bloodlines was intended for. We will continue training and polishing throughout his life, it is not a one time trained and that is it. He and I will always be learning and training and if that is what it takes to have a good happy dog then so be it. Personal protection training means the ability to protect the person and if he needs to protect by force he will be trained as such. I am not positive what it all entails because we are only just starting. We are at the bite work and tug of war is how my trainer teaches that. Whether he is right or wrong, makes no difference to me right now. He does not physically touch my dog, everyone else hit and kicked the dog. He has never done anything to make me nervous or question him. I am sick and tired of going to trainers and behaviouralists and coming home with more problems then I started with, the trainer and behaviouralist I am working with now, has not created more problems they have solved problems. I appreciate everyone being concerned, espically with Yukon's history but I am keeping a very close eye on things and if anything makes me nervous do not worry I will make other arrangements.

 

[Doberluv]

Taking my Doberman, for example, unless I was interested in Schutzhund training and he had the tested and confirmed temperament for it as well as the high level of obedience training needed prior, I wouldn't condider actively teaching him anything about "protection." A Doberman and a GSD have a strong protective instinct to begin with and need no formal training to deter intruders. (this is a generalization, some are not as protective as others) But, for the most part, their reputation, size, looks and their bark is plenty enough to deter the bad guys and protect your house and family. Thorough and heavy socialization needs to have taken place, good breeding and temperament and plenty of obedience training is vital. And most of these dogs will do a fine job of reacting to and barking menacingly at intruders. I've had both GSDs and now this Doberman. Dobermans are well known as personal protection dogs. That is specifically what they were selectively bred for....and need no formal training in that area, (in fact is is advised not to except for the Schutzhund sport) but do need a ton of obedience and socialization.

From your past posts about Yukon, he does not sound like a good candidate for formal protection training or bite work. Has he even been evaluated by a reputable Schutzhund club? If I had a dog like Yukon, I'd work on more socialization and obedience, using motivational and reward based methods, especially due to his history of biting, never putting him on the defensive by use of punishment.....then I'd go onto something fun for him like agility or rally o. He can use his brain and body and it's all fun and games at the same time. Just my .02. I'm sure you don't want it, but you know me...outspoken, as usual.

 

[Doberluv]

We posted at the same time Yuck so I didn't see yours until now.

Well, it's good that you're trainer isn't kicking your dog. That's a definite plus. LOL.

Tug is a game. The relationship of you and your dog is what's relative. If your dog is having a problem with that game, then he should not be in this kind of training, at least not yet. It sounds like he needs a ton more obedience. Just wish you the best. That's all.

 

[sheps4me]

From your past posts about Yukon, he does not sound like a good candidate for formal protection training or bite work. Has he even been evaluated by a reputable Schutzhund club? If I had a dog like Yukon, I'd work on more socialization and obedience, using motivational and reward based methods, especially due to his history of biting, never putting him on the defensive by use of punishment.....then I'd go onto something fun for him like agility or rally o. He can use his brain and body and it's all fun and games at the same time. Just my .02. I'm sure you don't want it, but you know me...outspoken, as usual.

I totally agree!
Just out of curiosity, when you say that you're starting protection training with Yukon, what exactly does that entail? Are you playing tug as a prelude to bitework? I still don't understand why anyone would need a dog that may use force to take down a person, unless you feel that your life is in danger. GSDs are suitably intimidating all on their own.
Also, keep in mind that your home insurance may be affected if you have a "protection trained" dog and you may have to post signs on your property as a warning to visitors/intruders. That's just a guess though. My dogs aren't protection trained...they're just noisy.

 

[yuckaduck]

We posted at the same time Yuck so I didn't see yours until now.

Well, it's good that you're trainer isn't kicking your dog. That's a definite plus. LOL.

Tug is a game. The relationship of you and your dog is what's relative. If your dog is having a problem with that game, then he should not be in this kind of training, at least not yet. It sounds like he needs a ton more obedience. Just wish you the best. That's all.

Thanks I hope for the best and time will tell. I will keep a close eye on things and if it looks like he is stressed or getting way to aggressive then I can always scale back. We are joining in two weeks a new obedience class, just for socialization purposes. We signed up both dogs since Dallas was suppose to be here by then. So far I am once again having a heck of a time getting in touch with the lady to see what is happening with Dallas. Oh well non refundable so if she is not here then she will not be in the class. My hubby was going to take one dog and I was going to take the other. In the same class to help with everyone's socializing. They both already know all the commands and do them well, but it never hurts to have them freshen up with other dogs around.

 

[yuckaduck]

I totally agree!
Just out of curiosity, when you say that you're starting protection training with Yukon, what exactly does that entail? Are you playing tug as a prelude to bitework? I still don't understand why anyone would need a dog that may use force to take down a person, unless you feel that your life is in danger. GSDs are suitably intimidating all on their own.
Also, keep in mind that your home insurance may be affected if you have a "protection trained" dog and you may have to post signs on your property as a warning to visitors/intruders. That's just a guess though. My dogs aren't protection trained...they're just noisy.

Yes insurance actually goes down, and yes posted signs are required to protect myself against sueing. I have a good reason that will never be posted for wanting a personal protection dog. Lets just say that my husband works 12 hour nights, 60 hour weeks, never changes. I am home alone all night 5 nights a week with two little kids. Extra protection never hurts!

We are just beginnning our personal protection training. The tug of war is our first step, we are not teaching the charge and take down because he is not a police dog, not going on duty as a police dog. Just teaching him to protect us and the bite work is to ensure the ability to take down is there. Not going to make him a killer dog. Yukon does not bark at all, he will rush to the door when someone knocks and once in a while he will let out a woof but then we have taught him that if he is quiet he gets a cookie. Shot ourselves in the foot there, taught him not to bark! Mistake on our part.

 

[yuckaduck]

Maybe we should start a new thread since we have majorly hijacked JoyfulRoy's thread.

 

[Doberluv]

You're right Yuck. Sorry Joyfulful Roy.

While I'm here though, I just gotta say this: I don't really want Lyric to protect me other than barking and growling at the door. Whenever he does, I go out on the porch and make him stay inside. I want to protect him. I don't want him to get shot or anything. If I need protection...more that that, I'll use my gun which I am trained to use. Or you can have an electronic security system. I would never forgive myself if my dog got killed by some jerk. So with creeps out there who have guns or knives or poison, your dog is in grave danger of being killed. There are many better forms of protection. A dog is a good deterent while he's inside barking in the case of a prowler. But beyond that...no....not these days.