Please answer me, Im very sad

Doberluv

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#41
Cesar Millan uses dog psychology. He's studied it for YEARS
Just to keep the OP from following Cesar's way, he has had NO education in animal behavior. He is a self proclaimed "dog psychologist." He relies on punishment and flooding (exposing fearful or reactive dogs to the anxiety producing stimuli) in huge quantities, up close... which causes the dog to shut down because he has no choice. He cannot escape, so he lies down, shuts down and accepts it which produces a learned helplessness, a comfort zone of familiarity no matter if it is unpleasant. He stays in that place. He stops that targetted behavior but he also stops other behaviors which are happening too. So in gereral, the dog just stops behaving. In other words, people who "train" like that want a toned down version or skeletan of a dog....a sad statement about the human race.

All the yanks cause the dog to "behave" to avoid more pain, discomfort or fear...unpleasantness. That only supresses behavior. Behavior is only a sign of a deeper issue going on inside. Cesar stops behavior but he does not stop the catalyst to the behavior. (in most cases, not all) Many of these dogs on his show are said to have reverted to their old ways.

Modern behaviorists train by conditioning and desensatizing a dog to things they are afraid of or have some kind of problem with because it solves the problem from the inside out, not covered with a bandaid. There is less chance of regression that way and it's much easier, less stressful to the dog. Dogs trained this way show more confidence, they're happier, they learn HOW to learn better because they get to think and choose more...only we set them up to "choose" the way we want. (don't tell them that though.) lol. Punishment is also just not fair to a dog who has not been trained to do the "right" thing. He doesn't know. It's not his fault that he's more interested in something else. That's just the way they are, they way they're wired. We can't expect them to think like we do and care about the things we care about. They do what works for them. They do what they do best.....be a dog.

That said, about attention: Of course, if a dog has not been trained to give attention, he is more apt to give his attention on the competing environmental motivator. (squirrels, cats, dogs, leaves blowing etc) Their instincts are so strong to be attracted to moving things that even well trained dogs sometimes can't resist. However, training a dog to give his owner attention requires, like everything else to start where there are no distractions...inside the house, then introducing a mild distraction and gradually moving up the hierarchy of distractions as the dog is able to cope with the previous, more mild ones. The motivator that the owner or trainer needs is one which will be more interesting to the dog than most, if not all environmental motivators.

So, you teach, "watch me" at home in your living room and you try it out at random times when the dog is least expecting it...different rooms, different contexts. You get it solid. Then you try it out in your yard, hopefully away from squirrels. You practice and practice. Then you add a human walking across the lawn and you practice, then maybe another dog that he knows well.

It's all about reinforcing a correct response over and over and beating out the competition with your slightly hungry dog if need be, your high value treats, a favorite squeeky toy.

There are also things you can do to re-direct his prey drive. What's just about as good as chasing a squirrel? How about chasing a squirrel? LOL. If you have two people there, one holding the leash, the other holding a stuffed animal on a rope...hidden behind her back. Dog sees squirrel in the yard. Owner says, "leave it." (already taught) For low level reaction, he gets reinforced with the stuffed animal on a rope which is going to "run." He's going to have some fun doing what he likes. He learns that by leaving the real squirrel alone, he gets what he wants...to run after a moving object. It becomes habit for him to "leave it" because only good things have happened for leaving it...(a strong history of reinforcement) But, ya gotta reinforce him quickly.....before he decides to lunge at the squirrel. The problem with most people is they wait for the rotten behavior to start and then it's light years too late to do anything about it. He must be reinforced for the correct resonse numerous times and NOT get reinforced for lunging at the squirrel. That's invigorating probably, even if he can't get the squirrel. That needs to be interrupted, prevented and the "good" behavior reinforced.

Lyric, my Doberman has stopped mid chase many times after deer, squirrels, dogs and most things. One time he didn't obey and ran after a bear with Jose, my Chihuahua. But over all, he's close to what I want.

Anyhow...the point of all this rambling is that there ARE alternatives which are absolutely effective, which are used by most trainers today who have advanced degrees in behavior, who have been training for decades. There are studies, science which supports this as well. These other ways do not include aversives such as jerking on a collar or other punishment.

Sometimes people say, "it doesn't work." Well, it does work if all or even most of the available information is learned by the trainer. You don't have to have a PhD to learn enough of this to mold a happy and well mannered dog. It does take some study, just like anything else. It works because it is behavioral law. An apple falls from a tree because gravity, a law of physics. Scientific learning behavior happens because it is a law of behavior. Dogs are not obedient to cues. They're obedient to reinforcement and behavioral laws. Overly dominated dogs are complying out of avoidance and/or fear. That is not training. That is coercion. There's a big difference.
 
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Herschel

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#42
"Tsst tsst!"

How the hell is a dog supposed to understand that? Cesar Milan has such little grasp of actual dog training. Unfortunately, his influence is dangerously appealing to so many people.
 

silverpawz

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#43
Fact is, yanking on a leash isn't going to get a dogs attention, or make them behave. It's just not.
Sure it will. Dogs were trained long before people started to use mainly positive reinforcement. What do you think they used? Leash corrections.

Now, the questions is, do you want to base your relationship with your dog mainly on corrections, or do you actually want to spend the time to teach your dog what you expect and set him up to succeed?

It's not a matter of, 'this works, and this doesn't", both corrections and positive reinforcement work quite well. It's up to the people to decide if they want to start out teaching and allowing the dog to learn, or correcting and forceing the dog to figure it out along the way.
 

Filianna

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#44
Hello everyone. I called the vet, who know my dog from when he was a puppy - he has never caused her any trouble even when she "hurts" him and makes him cry. She didn't like what he did. She told me that I'll have to take him to a pet hospital for X rays and some other exams! I'll go this saturday. I feel guilty now, cause apparently I own a dog, not knowing basic things about dogs. Im going to read everything in the forum. To everyone who worry, I thank them very much, but I'd never hurt my dog to punish him. :yikes:
 

Boemy

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#45
Don't feel guilty, at least you're learning now. :) Just remember your dog isn't a human, so his biting you doesn't mean he doesn't love you. You just have to teach him it's not acceptable behavior.

Regarding Cesar Milan, he's not a qualified dog behaviorist (which I believe you actually get a degree for, or is it a license?) He's just a TV personality without much real knowledge. The local shelter sends out a quarterly newsletter to people who've adopted pets and recently sent one with an article about Cesar that basically said, "Don't listen to him, he's a hack."
 

MafiaPrincess

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#46
The American Humane Association made a push to have Milan's show pulled off the air due to his techniques. They ended up having to settle with a disclaimer for the show to get a profession and not to just emulate what he doe. Doubt it'll change people from doing what they see on tv, but it's a start.
 

BSan

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#47
Filianna,
Please don't feel guilty. I have my fourth dog and still am learning. You are doing the right thing getting your dog checked by the vet, and I know you care about your dog. Doberluv gave some good ideas for you to try a little at a time. It just takes repetition. You can make training fun! I just started taking my puppy to obedience class to learn some training methods that are new to me. We use boiled chicken, or whatever our dogs really really like (that is healthy). This training is new to me because it has been many years since I have gone to classes. I have had dogs for many years. I had a private trainer years ago, and group classes quite a few times with each dog. The methods have changed in the years since I have been to classes. I am enjoying the new methods I am learning, and it is truely amazing to watch my doggy learn and respond (as well as the other dogs in the class). Once they learn through repetition, you won't need to use food all the time. Right now I am learning some really neat things so that in case someone drops a pill, or something dangerous, Herbie is learning to "leave it", and look to me for something better from me. Unless they are ill, I believe alot of dogs like to be challenged and learn. They love the praise and attention, and most of the time want to please you no matter what age. Your dog can learn to "leave it" in a positive way. I am sure it scared you when your dog bit you. Working with your dog and teaching him some new things may be just what you both need, especially since you are away from the house more then before. Your dog will look forward to it. Learning is fun. Let us know how you are doing. I am sure that people can help you as you work with your dog. Try some of doberluvs ideas. if you have questions as you go, ask. Try not to get confused with what some people wrote. They are giving differing opinions, and have a right to, but if you look at the advise, you will see that you were given some great training tips, fun for you, and fun for your dog. I wish I had learned some of these things when my older dog was still living. He wanted to please up to the very end! Best wishes to you.
 

Filianna

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#49
My sweet Zafit suffered a stroke. Thats what happened to him the time he bit me. It was a very small one, and doctors gave me medications and told me not to worry that much about it, because a dog stroke isn't as serious as a human stroke. I have to watch him, to see if that happens again. I give him lots of spagetti now. For some reason he ju loves spagetti. I took his food away once to see what will happen, and he didnt react at all, he just stood there looking at me, and shaking like saying "please, please, please give it back". I don't really want to train him, now. Im scared for my baby :(
 

Doberluv

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#50
Really! Oh, I'm so sorry for your worry. I'm glad you took him to the vet and hope there will be no more episodes.

He may like spahgetti but it isn't nourishing for him. It's pretty acidic and just not a dog diet. He really needs his dog food which has meat and lots of protein.

Training him doesn't have to be some awful, arduous thing. It should be fun and light, with a game playing atmosphere. Dogs enjoy learning things. They enjoy that kind of interaction with you. If you don't teach him little things along the way because you feel sorry for him or if you let him have his way about things because you feel sorry for him....if you fuss over him too much, he may develop some real behavior problems.

Of course you want to love him up and watch over him extra carefully. There's nothing wrong with that. Just be careful you still interact with him as you would a dog.....because he is a dog. And his little mind works differently than ours. He doesn't know he had a stroke. He probably feels fine now and isn't looking back.

Does the vet think he'll be OK for now? I'm so sorry for your worry. It's really hard when things go wrong, isn't it. Take care. I'll be thinking of you and your little fur friend. Let us know how he does.
 

Filianna

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#51
Yes Dober, the vet thinks he'll be ok, since the episode didnt cause him paralysis. But... well she wasn't happy and she didnt ENSURE me that this won't happen again. She said that we'll have to watch him. I know what you mean with the spagetti thing, but I dont think it will hurt him to eat what he really loves rarely of course and I just give this food to him with his meat and everything. Do we humans always eat what is good for us? Anyway life is going back to normal and I'll try to teach him new things, but as I feel that I will lose him (and thats something the vet didnt want to take out of my mind) I see this all as pointless. Its ironic that I titled this thread "Im very sad" reffering to the bite, and now I have to handle this. Thanks a tone for your great advice.
 

Filianna

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#52
One more thing. I Know that I do a lot of things wrong with my dog, but the fact that I want whats best for him does not change. And I know that I did the right thing to seek help in this forum, since you guys MADE me take him to the vet, wich I'd never think by myself. So Im greatful and want you all to know that.
 

Doberluv

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#53
This is a scary thing and I know how you must feel....that dread. I feel that dread sometimes quite a bit because I have a Doberman. Dobermans have a huge propensity to bone cancer (and other cancers) and dilated cardiomyopathy. You would not believe how many Dobermans die prematurely on account of these things which, careful as I was to choose a breeder with lower prevelence in her lines, still.....it's in all the lines. There are Dobes who die at age 3 or 5 or 6...way too young. And it's always in the back of my mind that he may not reach a nice, "healthy" life span of 10..that I'll lose him early. All we can do when something like what happened with your dog is try to enjoy each day and give them the best, happiest time and just love 'em.

I didn't realize you meant once in a while with the spahgetti. Yes, I don't see anything wrong with it for a treat sometimes. (just no onions. They're toxic to dog...really toxic)

As far as the teaching of some basic obedience or some tricks, that's not a waste IMO. Dogs generally love to have something to do with their minds. They have good minds and they get bored and depressed, I think if they don't get to use them. It's never a waste. That idea too, isn't good for you because it puts you in the mind set that he is definitely not going to be around for long. And you don't know that. This could have been an isolated thing and he may have a long, healthy life. Live your life with him... and have him live his life as though none of this happened and he's going to be fine. At least try. And you know what? That just may very well be the case. In fact, I'd almost want to get a second opinion if it isn't too late. That vet may have been wrong. What tests did she do to determine that he had a stroke? Did she do blood tests and find what is excreted during a stroke?

At any rate, enjoy your dog and make his time happy and enriching (from a dog's point of view) and that's all any of us can do.

(((hugs)))
 

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