pet dogs?

[mrsgrubby]

Ok, I have a question that has bugging me for awhile.

Most good breeders are breeding pups for show or competition. Once the pups are born they are tested by the breeder or helper for conformation and temperment.

Out of a litter of puppies, some will meet the breeders expectations for show and competition dogs, and others will not.

Out of the pups that don't meet expectations, some will be because something is off in their structure. Maybe the angulation, maybe their neck and shoulders, maybe feet and head, or whatever.

But others that might have even looked good, don't do so well on the temperment tests. They are skittish or shy, they are too agressive and pushy, they aren't interested in people, or whatever.

It is my understanding that breeders then sell these two sets of puppies as pets.

While I don't mind buying puppies that were off a bit on their conformation as pets, i am struggling with breeders selling puppies that were off on their temperments as pets.

Why would the average dog owner want a puppy that the breeder saw had a temperment issue? Raising a good behaved, well trained dog is hard enough, without starting with a pup with a slightly flawed temperment.

How do you breeders handle this?

 

[chinchow]

Breeders I know tend to choose puppies that are less high-strung, and more laid back. Puppies that are a little overly rambunctious might be sold to pet homes because sometimes that hyperactive nature carries right into adulthood, and that's not the best demeanor for the ring.

That's not to say there's not other reasons breeders weed them out, but that's just what I noticed being around certain breeders of Chow Chows.

It's not that they necessarily have bad temperaments, but the breeder may be looking for something a little different in a show dog, something that a pet owner would probably appreciate the opposite of, depending on the person and the breed.
And hopefully, if it seems to be a serious temperament issue, the breeder will choose a very educated, dedicated and experienced owner for the dog to go to.

 

[tempura tantrum]

Often the difference in temperaments between show and pet prospects is VERY slight. In my breed, we WANT the more rambunctious puppies as show dogs (in fact, this is generally true for most breeds...the dogs that tend to be more outgoing and more "pushy" are the ones that make standout show dogs- the more calm puppies, or the wallflowers generally don't fare as well).

A quick example- my girl had three puppies in her last litter. Comparably, they were all beautiful pups. Two males, one female. The big rambunctious "obnoxious" male became a group-placing showdog, that is now ranked #12 in the country. We put the other two in pet homes. Neither of them had any thing "wrong" with them per se- nothing anyone who DIDN'T show dogs would notice. The smaller male was a little too feminine in structure. Our breed standard notes that one should be able to look at the head of the dog and know whether or not the dog is male or female. This puppy was beautiful, but had too feminine a head. His adoptive "parents" would never have noticed. The female's temperament was not quite outgoing enough. She was more calm and comparatively shy than the other two. You could tell she wouldn't have enjoyed the show ring as much as her compatriots. She was placed in a pet home as well, despite the fact that conformationally, she would've been able to finish. Once again, no one who DIDN'T show dogs would notice these subtle differences.

 

[Zoom]

Any good breeder will be upfront and honest about the reasons why those puppies are going to pet homes versus the show ring and will choose homes accordingly. That "aggressive and pushy" pup might just have the drive to make for an outstanding sports dog, depending on the breed.

This is also why all breeders should strive to breed for perfection, because there will always be "pet-quality" puppies in every litter. Outstanding dogs in their own right, but not quite fit for the show ring.

 

[mrsgrubby]

Awhile back i ran into a super shy dog, really to shy and skittish to function in the world. I understand why the breeder didn't want to keep the pup, but even in puppy kindergarten this puppy always hides behind the chairs and hides from the instructor, and from the other puppies.

I feel sorry for the poor girl that owns this puppy, she wanted to get a good puppy and ended up with this puppy, which is no fun to take anywhere.

Those types of isses are not that subtle, they make owning the dog near impossible.

 

[showpug]

In pugs, we also like to keep/buy the puppy with the most energy as they usually make the best show dog. It's always said that you can always bring a dog down, but you can't bring them up in the ring. I have always felt that the best show dogs are always the hardest to live with!

As far as puppies that the breeder does not keep and places due to temperment. Well it's important to realize that there is the right owner for each and every dog, regardless of temperment. Puppies are not born to be aggressive or dangerous dogs. They may have a certain type of personality as a pup that if put in the wrong hands could be a problem later on. With these puppies, it is the breeder's responsibility to make sure they go to the correct home that has the experience and skills to raise the pup up properly. For example, a shy puppy should not be sold to a family with loud and rowdy children. Instead, a better choice may be an older single person who is experienced with dogs and will know how to properly socialize and build the puppy's confidence.

So my point is, it's not like breeders are selling puppies with "bad" temperments. They are simply selling puppies that have personalities that wont mesh with whatever situation/event that the breeder needs the dog to excel in. This doesn't mean that these pups can't make great pets, they just need to be placed with the appropriate home to meet their needs...

With my pups, I not only would like to temperment test them, but also temperment test potential puppy buyers! LOL!

The book "How To Raise A Puppy You Can Live With" explains this in detail.

 

[showpug]

Awhile back i ran into a super shy dog, really to shy and skittish to function in the world. I understand why the breeder didn't want to keep the pup, but even in puppy kindergarten this puppy always hides behind the chairs and hides from the instructor, and from the other puppies.

I feel sorry for the poor girl that owns this puppy, she wanted to get a good puppy and ended up with this puppy, which is no fun to take anywhere.

Those types of isses are not that subtle, they make owning the dog near impossible.

In this situation, the girl should have educated herself on how to test temperment and what to look for. If she did, she would have seen the signs early on and would not have purchased a pup with a personality that did not fit her lifestyle. The puppy buyer needs to take some responsibility in educating themselves on what to look for in a pup! The breeder failed as well as it's the breeder's job to match the right puppy with the right family.

 

[bubbatd]

:hail: Showpug !! As a breeder I would know early on as to temperment and would work with that pup . If it was aggression , I certainly wouldn't sell that pup at 8 weeks .....if it's shyness , I certainly would sell it to only the right new owner. Luckily I never had these problems.

 

[chinchow]

I guess every dog is different, and there really isn't any way to tell!

 

[RD]

In Border Collies bred for show, the active, intense, keen puppies go to pet homes and the breeders often keep the laid back, easy going ones.

 

[wehkah]

I see both sides of the question here....

IMO

We have breeders that choose the best show qualities and temperment dogs. They sell the ones that don't meet these standers. However not all breeders disclose any temperment issues and/or health issues.

Otherside

We have potential buyers that want a particular breed and saught out the breeder. These potential buyers should do their homework to make sure that the breed matches their lifestyle.

Problem: We have bad breeders that don't disclose temperment issues and we have buyers that are uneducated.

Result: Dogs that end up in shelters and in some cases dogs that are not adoptable because of behavior issues.

Solution: We all need to educate ourselves and others. Not only from the correct temperment of your breed but from a bad breeder too. If the breeder is a good breeder they should be picking the pup's proper family to be placed with. If the placement doesn't work out the breeder should request the dog back instead of having that family take the dog to a shelter.

Again this is MO

 

[bigdoglover]

I breed Giant Schnauzers....more specifically, of the working lines. This means they are more "high strung" (higher in drive) than the average show Giant. However, when those of us who breed working Giants are looking for the "perfect" dog, we are looking for 2 things: 1) stable mind/temperment and 2)high drive. What makes a good working dog is the solid nerve, and stable mind/temperment. Its also what makes a good pet. The stable mind is great for a home, being calm and good in all situations....the high drive for those that want an active dog that is fairly easy to train. These 2 reasons also apply to the working world for the same reasons.

If, in my litter, I notice a pup that does not posess these qualities, I have it s/n, and inform any potential buyers of my findings. For example, I had a pup that was high in drive, but low on the temperment scale. He was neutered and after extensive meetings with the potential owner, he was sold. The dog is thriving in that environment.

My pups all have an "unconditional return" policy. They come to me FIRST before anything.

Basically, I completely agree with wehkah.