Papillons
- Thread starter RD
- Start date
Ohhhh, no it's NOT a good thing for the breed. I'm already seeing these show breeders almost completely eliminate the temperament of the breed in favor of perfect conformation. I'm seeing more and more of the nervous, unmotivated, LAZY lap dogs instead of the bold, driven, sharp mini-spaniels they once were and it's driving me close to insane.
And don't even get me started on BYB & Puppy mills...
I'm a working dog fancier, if you haven't noticed. I plan to breed Ripley once he's proven himself to have a working temperament (through earning agility titles) and proven his genetics and health, in an attempt to bring the 'working dog' qualities back to the breed. Just 'cause they're small doesn't mean that they don't like to work.
I get a lot of fuss about breeding Ripley because he has minor cosmetic flaws that make him unsuitable for conformation showing, but my take on it is that if he proves himself as a performance dog, he could bring some good to the breed. Show pap breeders, it seems, want to pick holes in the dogs of people who don't agree with their methods of breeding.
And don't even get me started on BYB & Puppy mills...
I'm a working dog fancier, if you haven't noticed. I plan to breed Ripley once he's proven himself to have a working temperament (through earning agility titles) and proven his genetics and health, in an attempt to bring the 'working dog' qualities back to the breed. Just 'cause they're small doesn't mean that they don't like to work.
I get a lot of fuss about breeding Ripley because he has minor cosmetic flaws that make him unsuitable for conformation showing, but my take on it is that if he proves himself as a performance dog, he could bring some good to the breed. Show pap breeders, it seems, want to pick holes in the dogs of people who don't agree with their methods of breeding.
That's very similar to what's discussed among Fila people. Show dogs, particularly in Brazil, are being bred to be easier to show, which means breeding out temperament and with it, the herding drive. (The Fila in show is not DQ'd if it does not allow the judge to touch it.) Some of the resulting dogs are beautiful and very sound, but it's NOT a true Fila Brasileiro.
Shiva's father was an imported show dog, but her mother is from working lines, and she does not have the classic aversion to strangers - ojeriza - of the old Fila. She does, however, have beautiful conformation, superb health, great intelligence and the essential Fila loyalty as exemplified in the Brazilian simile, "Faithful as a Fila." When she is bred, we will select a male with an extremely 'hard' temperament and great herding drive. The focus of a breeding like this is to end up with just one superlative puppy with the best of both parents. The other pups from a breeding like that should be very sound, good puppies, but you don't expect for them to be more than pet quality with a good work ethic.
The best Fila lines have been created that way, and it has been a process of bringing back a breed that was very nearly completely lost to neglect on one hand and very nearly destroyed by it's own popularity (in Brazil) on the other.
It sounds to me like you are on the same wavelength with your Papillons. Best of luck!
Shiva's father was an imported show dog, but her mother is from working lines, and she does not have the classic aversion to strangers - ojeriza - of the old Fila. She does, however, have beautiful conformation, superb health, great intelligence and the essential Fila loyalty as exemplified in the Brazilian simile, "Faithful as a Fila." When she is bred, we will select a male with an extremely 'hard' temperament and great herding drive. The focus of a breeding like this is to end up with just one superlative puppy with the best of both parents. The other pups from a breeding like that should be very sound, good puppies, but you don't expect for them to be more than pet quality with a good work ethic.
The best Fila lines have been created that way, and it has been a process of bringing back a breed that was very nearly completely lost to neglect on one hand and very nearly destroyed by it's own popularity (in Brazil) on the other.
It sounds to me like you are on the same wavelength with your Papillons. Best of luck!
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Renee, just wish upon a star that the AKC doesn't EVER recognize the Fila Brasileiro. Once the AKC knows it, everyone wants to breed it, and that'll be a magnificent breed ruined by ignorant and irresponsible people.
Good luck, when you breed Shiva. Are you planning on breeding Kharma as well, when she's matured?
Good luck, when you breed Shiva. Are you planning on breeding Kharma as well, when she's matured?
Definitely, definitely. Kharma's from the bloodlines of our wonderful, egotistical, manipulative, herd dog extraordiare, classically hard, rampant diva, Buffy. I waited a year and a half to get another pup from those bloodlines after our Buffy was murdered. For Kharma, I'm looking for a physically sturdy dog with good droving instincts and a hard temperament, since Kharma is not quite as hard as Buffy.
I (hopefully) doubt that the Fila people will ever agree long enough on a single standard for the AKC to deign to notice our dogs. There are so many factions on such trivial things. Color is a big issue. Some say a black dog is not a Fila, others say dogs with more than a small percentage of white (feet, chest, tail tip) aren't Filas. On the other hand, the old breeders on the Brazillian fazendas prize the predominantly white dogs above all other colors and won't willingly let them out of the country. So, with any luck, there won't ever be enough agreement to pass muster with the AKC. Affiliation with the AKC has ruined so many dogs. And the Filas surely don't need to be popular dogs; they're just not suitable for most dog owners. There is such a fine line in dealing with them between having to maintain control of those egos and dealing with their delicate feelings. (lol)
I (hopefully) doubt that the Fila people will ever agree long enough on a single standard for the AKC to deign to notice our dogs. There are so many factions on such trivial things. Color is a big issue. Some say a black dog is not a Fila, others say dogs with more than a small percentage of white (feet, chest, tail tip) aren't Filas. On the other hand, the old breeders on the Brazillian fazendas prize the predominantly white dogs above all other colors and won't willingly let them out of the country. So, with any luck, there won't ever be enough agreement to pass muster with the AKC. Affiliation with the AKC has ruined so many dogs. And the Filas surely don't need to be popular dogs; they're just not suitable for most dog owners. There is such a fine line in dealing with them between having to maintain control of those egos and dealing with their delicate feelings. (lol)
That, I agree on. Filas are NOT a dog that should be popular. As great as they are, I KNOW what would happen if an ignorant person got their hands on one and didn't socialize and train it. Luckily though, I don't think such an ignorant person would have even heard of a Fila Brasileiro...
The Filas I used to play with quite possibly thought of me as just another dog in the pack, and yes, their egos are large and their feelings are sensitive. LOL. I learned that after yelling at one of them for jumping on me. He gave me the 'sad face' for DAYS (and I'm not kidding. It was like a week) after that.
I'd like to be owned by a Fila, but I don't want to import or ship a dog that I've never met before, and since there aren't ANY good Fila breeders within 800 miles of where I live, I don't see myself getting one until I can drive to pick up a puppy. With a breed like that, I HAVE to know exactly what I'm getting.
Good luck with your girls, I'm sure they'll produce great examples of the breed!
The Filas I used to play with quite possibly thought of me as just another dog in the pack, and yes, their egos are large and their feelings are sensitive. LOL. I learned that after yelling at one of them for jumping on me. He gave me the 'sad face' for DAYS (and I'm not kidding. It was like a week) after that.
I'd like to be owned by a Fila, but I don't want to import or ship a dog that I've never met before, and since there aren't ANY good Fila breeders within 800 miles of where I live, I don't see myself getting one until I can drive to pick up a puppy. With a breed like that, I HAVE to know exactly what I'm getting.
Good luck with your girls, I'm sure they'll produce great examples of the breed!
That sad face is something else. Kharma's an expert on it; she cracks me up. I look at her and ask her, "Kharma, why the long face?" Shiva's face isn't as long, but she's a real pro at squeezing out a few tears.
There are a precious few Fila breeders that I MIGHT consider getting a puppy from, sight unseen, but I really don't like the idea of shipping a puppy, and I certainly wouldn't import one after learning what I have about the state of the breed in Brazil.
You might find this website interesting: http://www.mindspring.com/~anableps/fila.html
Lots of serious info. By the way, which Fila breeder is closest to you?
There are a precious few Fila breeders that I MIGHT consider getting a puppy from, sight unseen, but I really don't like the idea of shipping a puppy, and I certainly wouldn't import one after learning what I have about the state of the breed in Brazil.
You might find this website interesting: http://www.mindspring.com/~anableps/fila.html
Lots of serious info. By the way, which Fila breeder is closest to you?
Great site!
I haven't seriously looked at Fila breeders in my area, but I've looked at several on the internet, so far, Defender Filas looks like it has the best breeding program. I believe they're somewhat in your area..
If someone was breeding a lot of Filas in North Idaho, I'd almost be inclined to call animal control.... There are a select few here who actually breed dogs with the intention of breeding GOOD animals, instead of just making money.
I haven't seriously looked at Fila breeders in my area, but I've looked at several on the internet, so far, Defender Filas looks like it has the best breeding program. I believe they're somewhat in your area..
If someone was breeding a lot of Filas in North Idaho, I'd almost be inclined to call animal control.... There are a select few here who actually breed dogs with the intention of breeding GOOD animals, instead of just making money.
Defender is about 45 minutes away from me. Kharma is one of their pups, as was Buffy, her aunt/half sister (Buffy's mother was Calliope and her father was Gamble; Cagney's (Kharma's mother) was also out of Calliope, but from a different sire, and Kharma and her siblings were the result of a breeding between Cagney and Gamble, so we were able to get a puppy with exactly the bloodlines we wanted.)
Judy and Gary Leaveritt are wonderful people and they love their dogs, and are even brave enough to take in rescued Filas when they can. I think I could deal with a rescued adult Fila and win it over to become "my dog," but I'm not willing to put Bimmer into that position. As long as he raises the pups, he's got the upper hand, but there's just too much size difference to put him in a potentially harmful situation.
At our house, the oldest dog is always top dog, but can you imagine little 60 pound Bimmer having to hold his own with a grown Fila he hadn't raised?
Judy and Gary Leaveritt are wonderful people and they love their dogs, and are even brave enough to take in rescued Filas when they can. I think I could deal with a rescued adult Fila and win it over to become "my dog," but I'm not willing to put Bimmer into that position. As long as he raises the pups, he's got the upper hand, but there's just too much size difference to put him in a potentially harmful situation.
At our house, the oldest dog is always top dog, but can you imagine little 60 pound Bimmer having to hold his own with a grown Fila he hadn't raised?
I just read on one of your pics of Kharma that she came from Defender.. They definitely produced a nice pup!
lol, it's funny how 'little' is distorted. After owning a 5 pound dog, I see 60 pounds as a behemoth... But yes, I see where you're getting at about a rescue Fila.. And, while Shiva & Kharma are still little (Maybe YOUNG would be a better-fitting word, eh?) they could be at risk too.
Personally, I'm skittish about even taking in a rescue GSD (I'm longing for a GSD, I've wanted a SAR dog for awhile now..) because it hasn't grown up with ME and MY rules. Yes, I'm sure it would get along just fine after awhile, but its learning experience may be one in which a papillon gets eaten. And, with Filas, it's that +50lbs and a hard temperament.
At our house, Buster is top dog, regardless of who goes in or out. He's a wuss, but for some reason all the other dogs we've had in our house respect him.
lol, it's funny how 'little' is distorted. After owning a 5 pound dog, I see 60 pounds as a behemoth... But yes, I see where you're getting at about a rescue Fila.. And, while Shiva & Kharma are still little (Maybe YOUNG would be a better-fitting word, eh?) they could be at risk too.
Personally, I'm skittish about even taking in a rescue GSD (I'm longing for a GSD, I've wanted a SAR dog for awhile now..) because it hasn't grown up with ME and MY rules. Yes, I'm sure it would get along just fine after awhile, but its learning experience may be one in which a papillon gets eaten.
And, with Filas, it's that +50lbs and a hard temperament. At our house, Buster is top dog, regardless of who goes in or out. He's a wuss, but for some reason all the other dogs we've had in our house respect him.
If you go through a German Shepherd rescue organization you can expect them to be able to tell you which of their adoptable dogs are suitable for your home. My sister couldn't stand not having one a couple of years ago and went to a rescue organization. They matched her with an adult female who was perfect for her household, with three step-kids on the weekends and a full time male Jack Russell. The JRT was actually in some hot water, having bitten the middle boy (he'd been told not to sniff in the dog's ears!), and the Shepherd stepped right in, babysitting whenever the kids were there and not allowing the JRT to be alone with them. When the JRT gets too full of himself, she puts her paw on him and holds him down until he gives up. I feel sorry for the poor little fellow; it's not his fault, the kids' mother abused him terribly when he was a puppy. It's taken a lot of work to get him to the point that he's actually the happy, playful little dog he was meant to be.
The thing to remember is that a good GSD is a Shepherd, and if you're looking at adult dogs you can read the nature of the dog. The rescued ones also seem to know what's been done for them. My first one came from my grandmother; Bimmer was thrown out at a farm with his three siblings, and my other Shepherds have been adults from the pound. They've all been lovely, tolerant, even tempered dogs that needed no training at all - even Bear who grew up as a street dog! Truthfully, he probably had the best manners of all, and became a certified animal therapist.
The thing to remember is that a good GSD is a Shepherd, and if you're looking at adult dogs you can read the nature of the dog. The rescued ones also seem to know what's been done for them. My first one came from my grandmother; Bimmer was thrown out at a farm with his three siblings, and my other Shepherds have been adults from the pound. They've all been lovely, tolerant, even tempered dogs that needed no training at all - even Bear who grew up as a street dog! Truthfully, he probably had the best manners of all, and became a certified animal therapist.
RD you should get a breeder with a CH bitch to breed your ripley too,
then you would get a dog with the temperament and the conformation,
but you would have to get a bitch that is very good in the places ripley slacks, maybe show ripley a bit in conformation to see how he does,
get a judge to tell you his negative points so you can find a bitch that helps them
then you would get a dog with the temperament and the conformation,
but you would have to get a bitch that is very good in the places ripley slacks, maybe show ripley a bit in conformation to see how he does,
get a judge to tell you his negative points so you can find a bitch that helps them
If you have nothing but useless drivel to say it's best to say nothing at all.
As far as the working dog comment, a little bit of education or research would do you some good before YOU start "being such a yapper."
RD also owns a Border Collie who has very much proven his mettle as a working dog.
Honestly...the things people say on the internet...
As far as the working dog comment, a little bit of education or research would do you some good before YOU start "being such a yapper."
RD also owns a Border Collie who has very much proven his mettle as a working dog.
Honestly...the things people say on the internet...
OMFG . . .
For a second I thought someone else was posting under my name, until I realized how old this thread is. I cannot believe I was considering breeding Ripley. :yikes:
Holy freaking god, I was an idiot. If I could go back in time and pummel myself, I would.
*DIES*
Edit: Oh, and Zen . . . Just because you have issues with one Papillon doesn't make the entire breed horrible. Mine is vocal but he doesn't yap. He loves agility and is pretty good at it, too. Paps are far from being working dogs in the "Border Collie" sense, being BRED to do an actual job . . . But you'd be surprised to know that most of them are very versatile and often have a pretty good work ethic.
For a second I thought someone else was posting under my name, until I realized how old this thread is. I cannot believe I was considering breeding Ripley. :yikes:
Holy freaking god, I was an idiot. If I could go back in time and pummel myself, I would.
*DIES*
Edit: Oh, and Zen . . . Just because you have issues with one Papillon doesn't make the entire breed horrible. Mine is vocal but he doesn't yap. He loves agility and is pretty good at it, too. Paps are far from being working dogs in the "Border Collie" sense, being BRED to do an actual job . . . But you'd be surprised to know that most of them are very versatile and often have a pretty good work ethic.
I guess someone was browsing old threads and didn't notice dates?
Lol, I was 14 and Ripley was only about 8-9 months old when this thread was started. He's since been neutered and I've come to my senses He is a cutie pie and a wonderful pet, but after I got my head out of my a$$ and gave up on kennel blindness, I realized he's not breedworthy.
Lol, I was 14 and Ripley was only about 8-9 months old when this thread was started. He's since been neutered and I've come to my senses
He is a cutie pie and a wonderful pet, but after I got my head out of my a$$ and gave up on kennel blindness, I realized he's not breedworthy.