Pack Dynamics

Specsy

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#1
Does anyone have any good article on how to identify, manipulate, and control the pack dynamics in a large pack of dogs. I been looking for sled dog trainers info as I think they probably understand pack dynamics the best, but I have not been successful in my search. Basically I am trying to figure my pack out. I can figure the 3 I raised as pups, but the 3 I rescued, I cannot read their position in the pack at all, they don't interact properly with the others.

I also need to figure it out as I need to start training my pack to work with each other instead of against each other.

Bella, Leo, Felda work great with each other. They are the 3 I raised from puppies.

Vicky, Emmett, try to work against Bella Leo and Felda, rather than with them. For example, Bella Leo Felda are all carrying a log, Vicky and Emmett bark uncontrollably at them and try to herd them or bite them or something. Roxy is NEVER seen. Ever. She does not work with a pack at all, she's a lone ranger.

I need a lot of info. I don't actually know if I should bother with it all though because Bella and Felda (maybe Leo but he is really my dads boy and I would feel terrible ripping them apart) will be out the picture when I move out (next year sometime) but I want to give it a try anyway.
 

Taqroy

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#2
I asked the behaviorist about this when we went in for our consult. Short answer: no. Long answer: There's a lot of books that discuss pack dynamics but very few that actually tell you how to manipulate them. And there's not a bible of it, so to speak. Not like there is for dog body language.

I don't know how accurate that is - I trust my behaviorist but I also know she hasn't seen everything out there. What I do know is that she pinpointed the problems in my pack within half an hour of seeing them. Maybe it'd be worth to try and find a behaviorist?? I have no idea how feasible that is though, I think I remember you saying that there aren't very many good ones in your area.
 

Dekka

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#3
Its hard, simply because dogs aren't pack animals. They are social and gregarious with a much more fluid 'structure' than people want to see.

One dog can be 'higher' when it comes to one resource, but 'lower' with another. There are not usually nice straight lines. Males tend to be more linear than females according to the literature/studies.
 

AdrianneIsabel

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#4
Its hard, simply because dogs aren't pack animals. They are social and gregarious with a much more fluid 'structure' than people want to see.
This.

It's been discovered that our previous research and conclusions about dogs and dominance orders and pack structures was completely askew.


This belief that dogs are pack animals that constantly battle for rank originated with studies of captive wolf packs in the 1940's and was later popularized by the Monks of New Skete in the 1970’s, which is what many trainers based their beliefs on for the next 20 years. These beliefs included the fear that dogs could physically harm us unless we "established our dominance." Methods such as alpha rolls and leash corrections were often recommended as a way for the dog owner to "establish dominance" over their dogs.


Alpha roll or omega roll? Closer observations of wolves over the last 40 years have shown that this infamous behavior is an act of submission, not dominance. A wolf voluntarily rolls on its back in a subordinate display. No contact is made, thus avoiding dangerous physical conflict.
However, there are problems with modeling dog training after these beliefs, including:

The early wolf studies were seriously flawed. First, the wolves were held in captivity and not in studied in their natural habitats. Second, the wolves had been captured from different wolf packs, creating a volatile and unnatural pack structure. Finally, the studies focused largely on hunting/feeding behavior, a small percentage of wolf behavior. None of these factors provided researchers with an accurate view of normal wolf behavior. According to one biologist, this study was akin to using the concentration camps of Germany and Poland to study natural human behavior.

More in-depth studies of wolves in their natural habitats over the last 50 years have since revealed that a wolf pack is made up of a family; the breeding pair who shares leadership, and their offspring (1), who stay with the pack until 2-3 years of age, when they start their own pack. Eventually, almost every wolf becomes an "alpha" if they survive long enough mate and breed.
Dominance: Dogs

Dogs are not tame wolves. The domestic dog evolved from primitive wolves approximately 14,000 years ago. Dogs exhibit behaviors that wolves do not, and do not display all the same behaviors that wolves do (2).

In Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin Behavior & Evolution, Ray and Lorna Coppinger write:

"Today, the popular dog press seems to feel that if dogs descended from wolves, they would have wolf qualities. But the natural selection model points out that the wolf qualities are severely modified. Dogs do not think like wolves, nor do they behave like them."
Observations of free-roaming dogs throughout the world reveal that dogs are social animals that are scavengers, not predators, and live much more solitary lives, as it does not benefit a scavenger to share limited resources with a large group of other animals. These dogs may form loosely knit groups, with animals joining and leaving randomly and frequently, a trait not seen in wolf packs.

Further, the domesticated forms of wild species will, as a general rule, revert back to their original form after being feral (wild) for a few generations. Dogs, of which there are many feral types throughout the world, have not reverted back to wolves either in appearance or behavior.

All of this evidence strongly discredits the romantic notion that dogs are watered-down versions of the wolf we know today. At best, dogs are watered down versions of wolf puppies, which are reliant on adult pack members to feed and protect them. In both dogs and wolves, puppies do not battle adults for rank or resources, nor do adults use violence to keep puppies under submission.
But don't just take our word for it. Watch this video from expert Adam Miklosi explaining why the dominance model is a flawed view of wolf and dog behavior: http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm
That said, I work heavily with control in my home. I run off the theory my dogs do not need to "like" one another but they must tolerate and respect one another. It has worked out well for us and over the years I have had countless dogs that came in aggressive stay or leave learning to enjoy their housemates in quiet time. Sometimes taking control for the dogs and removing that edge of anxiety, focusing their brains elsewhere, seems to help.
 

Doberluv

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#6
I agree. Dogs aren't pack animals. Through evolution, they became very strongly...scavenging animals....more so than hunters....and scavengers don't need to have a pack or a highly organized social structure. Most recent conclusions from many scientists, behaviorists etc have debunked the pack theory when it comes to domestic dogs and even most wild dogs. Some of the behaviors we see have been over-zealously labeled in such a way that ties those behaviors to some human-invented, imaginary pack "dynamics" when in actuality, they're just behaviors that happen in any social group. One gets his own way about one thing, the other gets his way about another. One dog might not care about the thing the other dog wants or gets so there was no challenge, no "one-upping" of the other. Another dog might be older or a parent and so it is natural that those kinds of dogs tend to lead in certain contexts. But it's just silly and really impossible to try and create some imagined, consistent hierarchy out of that. Humans love to project.
 

Taqroy

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#7
I agree. Dogs aren't pack animals. Through evolution, they became very strongly...scavenging animals....more so than hunters....and scavengers don't need to have a pack or a highly organized social structure.
Don't we (humans in general that is) kind of make them be a pack though? I mean the structure in my house is entirely different from how it would be if they were living on the streets. They pretty much have to interact with each other - there's no option to just leave a dog group they don't like and join another one. I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm genuinely curious as to your thoughts on this. :) I don't know much about this stuff.
 

Specsy

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#8
For the most part Roxy tolerates everyone well. If she doesn't work with the pack thats okay. It took me a long time to even help her be the dog she is now. Felda, Bella and Leo interact VERY, VERY well together.

Vicky and Emmett came in before Felda (Felda was meant to be temporary until she found a home but she turned out to be my perfect fit). Emmett and Vicky are siblings my family adopted as their family didn't want them and were going to take them to a high kill shelter. The big terms and conditions were that they go together, which I did not want, but my dad insisted, I did not adopt these two, it was an impulsive decision by my dad(if you read the sharpei thread you will see he has a silly soft spot). We have had them since July and they make me crazy. Emmett barks, barks, herds, Leo EVERY.SINGLE.TIME he plays. If Leo chews something Emmett barks, Leo moves too fast, Emmett barks, Leo plays fetch...it's the worst thing ever and I correct it every single time with re-directing and lately poking him because redirecting doesn't work anymore. Emmett was only lately neutered so we are still waiting for him to empty out of testosterone so it's a wait and see if that gets better.

Vicky acts as if she is wanting to attack Bella and Roxy and sometimes has nipped Bella, and once cornered Roxy and caught her unaware and attacked her (no blood drawn but a lot of nipping and pulling). I keep telling my dad it's a ticking time bomb and Vicky is not a perfect fit for our family but he won't budge so I HAVE to make it work.

Understand I have no say in who joins or leaves our family. I am just the person that gets stuck with having to work with it all. I worked with Roxy for 3 long years before she started recovering from her abusive past (she used to get kicked around and slapped and if you tried to pet her she would snap but no longer does). Now I need to start working with Vicky and Emmett to work with this pack I already have. I need advice.

We don't have any good behaviorists here... We have overly expensive, fly-by-night people and they come to your house, tell you some crap, and leave, without actually working with the dogs. OR they make a "treatment" plan, charge you stupid high fees for the plan and at the end of it nothing changed but their financial status. The other behaviorist I saw was ALL about tying my dogs up to a pole if they fought as punishment and hit them under the mouth if they did it again once loose. So no. I am not seeing another behaviorist. I would rather wait it out until I move out and let my folks deal with it if that's the case but I don't want to do that because I know my parents won't work with the dogs training wise. They feed, love, and walk them, but not train them.

ETA: I don't know how to train Vicky, I been trying to teach her "down" for THREE months now. I have tried every method, and lots of patience. She just doesn't learn. Very, very stubborn. So I don't know how to approach her either. I am very frustrated sorry for the rant.
 

AdrianneIsabel

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#9
Don't we (humans in general that is) kind of make them be a pack though? I mean the structure in my house is entirely different from how it would be if they were living on the streets. They pretty much have to interact with each other - there's no option to just leave a dog group they don't like and join another one. I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm genuinely curious as to your thoughts on this. :) I don't know much about this stuff.

My dogs technically are a pack, in that they exist together, but they do not rely on one another for survival.

Each of my dogs would be just fine and frankly get more food if they were one on one.

A pack of wolves rely on one another to exist. They need one another for hunting, for security, and for a multitude of other tasks.

I believe this is a baser difference.
 

Specsy

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#10
My dogs technically are a pack, in that they exist together, but they do not rely on one another for survival.

Each of my dogs would be just fine and frankly get more food if they were one on one.

A pack of wolves rely on one another to exist. They need one another for hunting, for security, and for a multitude of other tasks.

I believe this is a baser difference.
Leo and Felda work together to solve some simple problems though, I have noticed in the last few weeks. There was a big branch that Leo wanted to bring into the house but he could not carry it by himself so Felda held one end, and he held the other and ran straight into the door. But eventually figured if one of them reversed they would get in and that's what they did, and once it was inside, they both happily chewed it and I let them because they were in an easy to clean area and keeping themselves busy.
 

AdrianneIsabel

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#11
Leo and Felda work together to solve some simple problems though, I have noticed in the last few weeks. There was a big branch that Leo wanted to bring into the house but he could not carry it by himself so Felda held one end, and he held the other and ran straight into the door. But eventually figured if one of them reversed they would get in and that's what they did, and once it was inside, they both happily chewed it and I let them because they were in an easy to clean area and keeping themselves busy.
That's fun but that is playful problem solving, not working together to survive.

Any dog can learn to work with another dog but instinctually knowing how to and how to interact to soothe issues, to further their own pack, that is often asking too much from dogs.

Of course, not all dogs are the same and some retain more "pack" forward mentality. There have been studies on domestic dogs and their ability to work with other dogs in a human free pack setting. Some breeds do better than others and some are surprising in their discoveries.

Also growing up with one another seems to drastically change dogs ability to work with one another too, it's interesting to me and often hard for my human brain to understand.
 

Taqroy

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#12
My dogs technically are a pack, in that they exist together, but they do not rely on one another for survival.

Each of my dogs would be just fine and frankly get more food if they were one on one.

A pack of wolves rely on one another to exist. They need one another for hunting, for security, and for a multitude of other tasks.

I believe this is a baser difference.
Ah, I was thinking of a pack as more of...enforced proximity I guess. Not so much relying on each other as just having to be near one another. I definitely see what you're saying.
 

Doberluv

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#13
Here's what I think is a good article with lots of links which will be very enlightening. I think it's important to understand that there are a very few behaviors that actually pertain to a pack situation. And the variety of interactive behaviors that go on in a social group are not to be confused with those very specialized behaviors pack animals use which are directly advantageous to survival of their species.

http://www.leecharleskelley.com/top10myths/mythofthepackleader.html


Myth #1 - Dogs Obey the Pack Leader

The biggest myth is that dogs have an instinct to obey the "pack leader." New research shows that wolves live in extended family units, not dominance hierarchies. Even more surprising, however, is that wolves who settle near garbage dumps don't form packs (Coppinger), and that coyotes also form packs, but only in the winter when small prey is scarce. This suggests that the pack is neither a dominance hierarchy nor an extended family, but exists solely for the purpose of hunting large prey, a dangerous enterprise that requires intense commitment and cooperation. It also requires a group of like-minded individuals who share a common purpose, but who also possess strong differences in temperament. It's these differences in temperament - long thought to be an integral part of the pack's hierarchical structure - that enable the wolf's pack-style of hunting to succeed. And while it's true that only one animal leads the pack when they hunt, that animal is not the pack leader: it's the prey.





There's no question that dogs and wolves will gravitate toward anyone who exudes confidence, who gives clear signals on what you want from them, particularly if those signals and behaviors are in-synch with their instincts for group cooperation. But they clearly don't gravitate toward someone who's intent on dominating them or pushing them around. In fact, they don't like that at all.

But don't just take my word for it. Here are some links that will help you understand the real pack dynamic:

"Since we have so many television shows, books, and other media which have, unfortunately, not only been perpetuating this faulty view, but basing training and behavior modification methods upon it, it is important that the public be made aware of the real truth of wolf packs." - "The Man Who Cried Alpha," Nicole Wilde.

"Writers who refer to dominance and alpha behaviour in dog training are basing their message on outdated and now disproved theory (Steinker, 2007a)." -- The Alpha Theory: based on a misguided premise, Debra Millikan

"Q: What are your thoughts on human to dog hierarchy?"

"A: There is strictly no such thing - people are predominantly parent figures to their dogs, not pack leaders in hierchical arrangements and there is a wealth of science from evolutionary biologists to substantiate that view. Social order is seasonally evident in wolves and other wild canids to ensure the success of reproduction, not for any ongoing political reasons."-- Interview with Dr. Peter Neville.

"It won't be hard to get the wolf pack mentality to go by the board simply because we don't think many of the experts ever really believed it. It is through social play that animals learn from one another. Further, it is fun to play with our dogs even if none of us learn anything. It will certainly make more sense to the dog than to be tumbled onto its back and growled at by a human." -- A Talk with Ray & Lorna Coppinger

"Dog trainers have commonly accepted a model of training based on a supposed emulation of the behaviors of wolves, particularly alpha wolves. Central to this model is the notion of 'dominance.' This model is conceptually flawed in that it rests on some serious misconceptions about wolf behavior as well as serious misconceptions about the interactions between dogs and humans." -- Moving Beyond The Dominance Myth, Morgan Spector

"'Alpha' wolves (now simply called 'breeders' by most wolf biologists) do not train other members of the pack. Current wolf studies have also shown that they are not always the leading animals when wolves travel, nor do they always lead in hunting or eat first when a kill is made." -- "Letting Go Of Dominance," Beth Duman

"The 'alpha' concept is an outdated one with almost no data to support it." Dr. Karen Overall, "Interdog aggression: What are the warning signs?"

"Dominance theory is so muddled that it often contradicts itself. For example, if a 'dominant dog' is acting aggressively and the solution is through 'calm-assertive' energy, which makes the human the 'dominant pack leader,' wouldn't a dominant dog always act calm-assertive instead of aggressive?" -- The Dog Whisperer Controversy, Lisa Mullinax

“Dominance hierarchies do not exist and are in fact impossible to construct without entering the realm of human projection and fantasy.†The Social Organization of the Domestic Dog, Alexandra Semyonova

"Labeling a high-ranking wolf 'alpha' emphasizes its rank in a dominance hierarchy. However, in natural wolf packs, the alpha male or female are merely the breeding animals, the parents of the pack, and dominance contests with other wolves are rare, if they exist at all. During my 13 summers observing the Ellesmere Island pack, I saw none. Thus, calling a wolf an alpha is usually no more appropriate than referring to a human parent as an alpha. Any parent is dominant to its young offspring, so 'alpha' adds no information."

"The concept of the alpha wolf as a 'top dog' is particularly misleading." - Professor L. David Mech, Univeristy of Minnesota

"There is considerable confusion in the literature concerning wolves between the concepts of dominance and leadership; the most dominant animal in the pack being called the 'pack leader,' although this animal is rarely a leader in the sense of setting or signaling an example that is followed by others. Movements of wild wolf packs are often coordinated, but may be initiated by almost any adult." John Paul Scott (of Scott & Fuller)

"The dominance hierarchy that has been described for wolves may be a by-product of captivity. If true, this implies that social behavior, even in wolves, may be a product more of environmental circumstances and contingencies than an instinctive directive. Second, because feral dogs do not exhibit the classic wolf-pack structure, the validity of the canid, social dominance hierarchy again comes into question." -- Abstract: "A Fresh Look at the Wolf-Pack Theory of Companion-Animal Dog Social Behavior," Wendy van Kerkhove

And finally, I recommend you read my article "Pack Leader or Predator," originally written for my blog at Psychology Today.
 

Specsy

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#14
Also growing up with one another seems to drastically change dogs ability to work with one another too, it's interesting to me and often hard for my human brain to understand.
I have noticed this. All the dogs raised from pups, together with the other dogs, know how to interact with the others and each other, much much better, than the adopted dogs do. It bugs me because I feel as if I neglect the adopted dogs, but I don't, I actually spend much more time with them to make things work out.
 
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#15
Let's not get too caught up in what we want to call it. Basically dogs are highly adaptable to live in all sorts of niches from packs, pack like, social groups, whatever you want to call them, to solitary dogs that don't need a human or anything else.

They do interact, they do behave in certain ways around each other, with each other, to each other and do things to maintain the peace, push for something or whatever. Whatever you want to call I don't really care.

I guess I'd read up on dog body language first. Videos are better so you can actually see it.

Then you can at least get a better feel for how your dogs are feeling in certain situations. That way things can at least be safe for everyone, no fights or damage that way.

I don't know of anything "special" you can do to manipulate a group of dogs dynamic (does that please the non pack folks :) )? I approach it like anything else. Training.

I'm not sure how you need your dogs to work together, but i train mine seperate at first then together. I don't care what they distraction is, what the other dogs are doing, my commands are what is important. That way there is at least control and safety. I don't use them together though.

maybe hit up some herding places. Most on the net are probably not going to be helpful, they think putting their dog on 3 sheep in a pen is herding, but look for real herders. Might be hard to find. Like those using 3-4 dogs to round up huge groups of animals. They're directing their dogs, but a lot of it is teamwork between the dogs.

I'm assuming they use those dogs, because they are prone to working together, I doubt they did much to train it, but you could ask.
 

Specsy

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So now I have just figured I have been living a dog lie all along? I honestly thought dogs work as a pack? Alpha dog, beta dog, the like you know?

Does anyone know how people who use sled dogs (like 6-8 dogs) pair and sort their dogs on the pulling line? It has fascinated me for a long time because I always thought it was a pack dynamic thing. Obviously I am wrong, but I am still curious how they sort their dogs. Strongest dogs in front? In the middle? Behind? Highest drive dogs in front? Behind? Just curious how it works...
 
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#17
you're not obviously wrong. you're just dealing with some people that have a severe mental aversion to using the word pack for anything dog related. Instead they like to use other words to describe the same types of things.

I'm not sure they could even come up with a definition of a "pack". To me, it's just a bunch of dogs living together.

What is certain is dogs do have structure among each other.

Some dogs are stronger, some aren't

There is absolutely dominance between dogs in many situations. It can't be explained along a perfectly linear line, so to some it means it doesn't exist, I say just watch a litter of puppies and tell me they don't have tools and instincts that deal with dominance.

I'd be interested to meet some sled dog people and talk with them. I doubt there are any on here, you'll probably have to find a sled dog supply place, look for people involved and then email them.
 

Danefied

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#18
Specsy, I think you're just going to have to be very realistic about the dogs you have and what they can and cannot handle.
I have two wonderful males, but they simply can not play together, 9 times out of 10 it turns in to a squabble and vet bills. I do work on self control exercises with them and we practice being calm around excitement, but in the end the safest thing to do is just not let them play together. I think this is the reality that multi dog households have to face - to know your dogs and manage carefully to prevent issues to begin with.

As to pack or not a pack... What we create in multi-dog homes can "look" like a pack, but I think its important to remember that it is very much an artificial pack. Especially if you're bringing in dogs as adults, not puppies. Sure there's a hierarchy of sorts, but its not rigid. Roles fluctuate and positions change. And all those displays are meant to prevent conflict, not so much to establish rank.
 

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#19
So now I have just figured I have been living a dog lie all along? I honestly thought dogs work as a pack? Alpha dog, beta dog, the like you know?

Does anyone know how people who use sled dogs (like 6-8 dogs) pair and sort their dogs on the pulling line? It has fascinated me for a long time because I always thought it was a pack dynamic thing. Obviously I am wrong, but I am still curious how they sort their dogs. Strongest dogs in front? In the middle? Behind? Highest drive dogs in front? Behind? Just curious how it works...
Humorously or interestingly enough those sled dogs often want nothing more than to eat their neighbor. They aren't working in a team like "hey buddy let's please papa" it's a "this is my job, I love my job, I don't care who's next to me".

I have a few friends who do sledding, I can ask them so I don't muddy up their explanations.
 

AdrianneIsabel

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#20
Pack by definition is a group of things.

I said already my dogs are a pack of dogs.

They are however not a pack in the traditional sense of 1 2 3 4.

Dominance does and will always exist, it is however a fluid action, not a consistant label, and changes situation to situation.
 

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