Owning an Intact Male and Female

[Equinox]

For all those who have done it before, are doing it now, or have any type of experience with this - what is it like owning two intact dogs of opposite sexes?

I currently have a 16 month old male German Shepherd, and will not be neutering him unless I will need to do so for medical reasons (knock on wood!). Down the road, when he has matured out and I am ready for another puppy, I will be bringing home a female German Shepherd, who I will not be spaying until she is around 5-7 years old, depending on how things go.

Both, of course, will be inside dogs. I will be crating and rotating and separating the two anyway for training and bonding purposes starting from Day 1.

I would never own two unspayed females together, but have not heard much from those who own a male and a female. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Izzy's Valkyrie]

Why wait so long to get her spayed? Better yet, why not just get him neutered if you don't plan on breeding? It can be done, it's not a great idea unless you plan to be super vigilant and not let them be out together when she is in heat.

 

[Laurelin]

It's tough... We've done it before for a while. There always has to be a couple doors between the two to prevent oops to be double careful. And bitches make quite a mess (this was shelties too, not a dog as big as a GSD). Personally if I weren't breeding a dog, I wouldn't do it again. Too much work and dogs are very determined animals when they want to be.

Personally I would spay the bitch earlier of the two. Pyo is a big concern for me.

 

[Equinox]

Why wait so long to get her spayed?

We will be dabbling in the AKC and SV show ring and I like to keep my options open.

Better yet, why not just get him neutered

Why would I? I'd sooner spay the bitch than I would neuter the dog if it came down to it and I owned both.

It can be done, it's not a great idea unless you plan to be super vigilant and not let them be out together when she is in heat.

I certainly have no intention of letting them be together when she is in heat!! Thank you for your input

It's tough... We've done it before for a while. There always has to be a couple doors between the two to prevent oops to be double careful. And bitches make quite a mess (this was shelties too, not a dog as big as a GSD). Personally if I weren't breeding a dog, I wouldn't do it again. Too much work and dogs are very determined animals when they want to be.

Personally I would spay the bitch earlier of the two. Pyo is a big concern for me.

Thank you, Laurelin. Ideally, I would want two males because I am not too keen on dealing with the "messes", but I am not sure how Trent will do with another intact male. His best friend in the whole world is another intact male, but he's also been known to get snarky and have the usual male vs. male territorial issues.

I will not pretend to know much about owning a bitch. Is the chance of pyo significantly higher the longer you wait to spay? I will not neuter my dogs, but I am certainly an advocate for spaying bitches because of the health issues that arise. Unfortunately, I do not know many of the details.

 

[Izzy's Valkyrie]

Why are you so against neutering a dog but not spaying a bitch? Realistically the operation for a male is much less dangerous than a spay. There's always the chance of reproductive organ cancers in both sexes so I'm not sure why you'd find it better to alter one and not the other. Unless you plan on breeding him it's just common sense to alter him at an appropriate age or after he's attained the titles you desire that require him to be unaltered. The world doesn't need more unwanted puppies from oops litters and no matter how good an owner you think you are, accidents happen. And there is also the consideration that an unaltered dog will do just about anything in his power to get to a bitch in heath which could result in a lot of property damage if there is one in your neighborhood.

 

[Fran101]

I guess it just takes lots of diligence, especially when shes in heat to keep them AWAY from eachother.
plus with the silent heat thing.. it might mean keeping them seperate when you cant watch them. l
ike, not just casually glance out the window or into the room where they are in every 5 seconds, I mean like.. WATCH THEM, like stare! lol

all it takes is a minute. wham bam thank you maam

 

[corgipower]

Is the chance of pyo significantly higher the longer you wait to spay?

Good question.

I don't know.

I do have an intact male and intact female, and almost always have. The only issues I've had is being sure to know when she's in heat and doing whatever is necessary to keep them separate.

They do tend to like to come into heat right when you have a big show planned. :lol-sign: They blow coat about the same time and intact females tend to blow coat a lot more than males and spayed females, so make sure you have a good brush and vacuum.

Dog aggression issues in GSDs tends to be same sex aggression, so that shouldn't be a problem.

It's not uncommon for males to not want to eat and to lose focus on work when there's a female in heat in the house.

Why wait so long to get her spayed? Better yet, why not just get him neutered if you don't plan on breeding? It can be done, it's not a great idea unless you plan to be super vigilant and not let them be out together when she is in heat.

Why put a dog through major surgery and remove internal organs and alter bodily functions unnecessarily?

I've had intact males and females at the same time for almost nine years. Haven't had any oopses. Some people are able to be responsible about it.

 

[Maxy24]

Izzy, many responsible dog owners see neutering as a completely unnecessary operation...like cropping a dog's ears or debarking. Both have upsides for the owner but for the dog it's just a surgery with all the surgical risks. People don't see the point of chopping off the dog's reproductive organs when he's not going to get anyone pregnant and it is not a surgery he needs to improve/save his life.

With females it's a a little different because there is a greater risk of health problems with intact females (Pyo). Heats are also more annoying for owners. The only issue with some males is they try to get to intact females in heat in the neighborhood, but as that's a behavior training can help control this but management is extremely important, so only very responsible people who take precautions to make sure the dog can never get out should be owning intact dogs.


That said I think owning two intact dogs of the opposite gender is risky. IMO they should never be alone unsupervised, even if you don't think the female is in heat. I also think anyone who wants to do this should be prepared to do an emergency spay if she may be pregnant. I do wonder how the male will be during the females heats, I bet some dogs go absolutely crazy and can't calm down (just guessing though, I've never done it). You'd have to see how your male reacts.

 

[Equinox]

Why are you so against neutering a dog but not spaying a bitch? Realistically the operation for a male is much less dangerous than a spay. There's always the chance of reproductive organ cancers in both sexes so I'm not sure why you'd find it better to alter one and not the other. Unless you plan on breeding him it's just common sense to alter him at an appropriate age or after he's attained the titles you desire that require him to be unaltered. The world doesn't need more unwanted puppies from oops litters and no matter how good an owner you think you are, accidents happen. And there is also the consideration that an unaltered dog will do just about anything in his power to get to a bitch in heath which could result in a lot of property damage if there is one in your neighborhood.

Now, I understand your passion for this topic, but will politely ask that you do not make assumptions.

I mean no offense, but it seems almost amusing to me that while on Laurelin's thread about neutering Beau, you seem, might I say, slightly disappointed at the news, while you come on here and preach to me about the dangers of an intact male.

Please do not assume I have not done my share of research on keeping males intact, because I have. And I am thoroughly convinced that neutering a male is an unnecessary surgery for a dog I own, and that the benefits are not high enough that I will do so. And I am taking medical factors into account as well.

This is my take and my decision. Obviously pro-neuter people disagree with me. I respect that, and I ask that you extend me the same courtesy.

My dog has been around bitches in heat before. I think I can handle him, thank you He is not an uncontrollable, driven monster. I think I know my abilities and my dog better than you do, with all due respect. But I will not underestimate those abilities, so rest assured that I will be going through great measures to ensure that an oops litter does not happen.

I do not know what type of dog owners you have known, but it is not impossible to prevent an oops litter. I know that much, at the very least. Neutering is not the norm in many countries, and I know German Shepherd owners who have owned intact males for 50+ years and have never had any trouble.

common sense to alter him at an appropriate age or after he's attained the titles you desire that require him to be unaltered.

Common sense? How so?

By the way, titles have nothing to do with keeping a dog unaltered. Just because a dog has a SchH1 does not mean he could run amok intact, nor does it mean he should be bred. Likewise, just because a dog does not have titles, it does not mean he cannot remain intact, and it does not mean he should not be bred.

But anyone who knows me will know that I have no interest in breeding and know better than most what makes a good breeder vs. what makes an irresponsible breeder.

 

[Laurelin]

I am pretty sure pyometra risk goes up as bitches have heat cycles but no puppies.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf

I do have an intact male and intact female, and almost always have. The only issues I've had is being sure to know when she's in heat and doing whatever is necessary to keep them separate.

I've had intact males and females at the same time for almost nine years. Haven't had any oopses. Some people are able to be responsible about it.

That's the biggest thing, knowing EXACTLY when she is in heat and for how long. And if an oops happens knowing what your options are and doing what is responsible then.

We've had multiple intact dogs (both male and female) most my life. It's doable but it's trickier than having them altered. My parents just weren't taught to spay or neuter their dogs so we never did. We never had a single oops or planned litter in years and years of having dogs. We were very diligent about keeping them apart. Personally I think there is enough reason to alter the bitches I'm not planning on breeding. It just makes life much simpler with the girls fixed now.

 

[Renee750il]

It can be a pain in the butt at times, but can be done. You just need to know your bitch well and your dog better.

Bitches can have silent heats; the only way you'll know is by your dog's reaction to her and hers to him. If she starts being unusually playful toward him, she may be going into heat, especially if she's playful then snarky. They can go through an entire heat cycle without ever bleeding or even swelling remarkably.

Yes, dogs -- even the most bullet proof ones -- can get pretty crazed, like CP says, not eating, whining 24/7, trying to dig through a concrete wall . . . Figure you're going to endure a certain amount of insanity for about 6 - 8 weeks out of every year.

The best possible solution is to have someplace where your male can stay during the heats. It will save your sanity and having to watch him be so miserable. If that's not possible, then two LOCKED doors between them at all times.

 

[Equinox]

Thank you Laurelin, for your link. I will read it word for word in a moment.

I do have an intact male and intact female, and almost always have. The only issues I've had is being sure to know when she's in heat and doing whatever is necessary to keep them separate.

That's the biggest thing, knowing EXACTLY when she is in heat and for how long. And if an oops happens knowing what your options are and doing what is responsible then.

Thank you for this - is there anything you would recommend to be more prepared for this? Signs to watch for, etc?

I plan to talk to the breeder and keep in contract with owners of littermates and siblings so I get a good feel for when she may start her heat cycles. I hear that sometimes closely related bitches start around similar ages? If not, wouldn't hurt to ask anyway.

They do tend to like to come into heat right when you have a big show planned. :lol-sign: They blow coat about the same time and intact females tend to blow coat a lot more than males and spayed females, so make sure you have a good brush and vacuum.

Our dogs are always ever so considerate, aren't they? LOL

I have actually heard this complaint often! People have a big match coming up, right when their bitches start blowing coat and looking all raggedy and scruffy.

I am plenty armed with brushes and a spanking new vacuum for my German Shedder!

Dog aggression issues in GSDs tends to be same sex aggression, so that shouldn't be a problem.

You are right - I love my doofy boys, but Trent has started having slight territorial issues with other intact males in new environments, which is one of the biggest factors in my decision to get a female. However, he's still loving as ever towards the girls.

Why put a dog through major surgery and remove internal organs and alter bodily functions unnecessarily?

I've had intact males and females at the same time for almost nine years. Haven't had any oopses. Some people are able to be responsible about it.

Thank you for understanding

Izzy, many responsible dog owners see neutering as a completely unnecessary operation...like cropping a dog's ears or debarking. Both have upsides for the owner but for the dog it's just a surgery with all the surgical risks. People don't see the point of chopping off the dog's reproductive organs when he's not going to get anyone pregnant and it is not a surgery he needs to improve/save his life.

With females it's a a little different because there is a greater risk of health problems with intact females (Pyo). Heats are also more annoying for owners. The only issue with some males is they try to get to intact females in heat in the neighborhood, but as that's a behavior training can help control this but management is extremely important, so only very responsible people who take precautions to make sure the dog can never get out should be owning intact dogs.


That said I think owning two intact dogs of the opposite gender is risky. IMO they should never be alone unsupervised, even if you don't think the female is in heat. I also think anyone who wants to do this should be prepared to do an emergency spay if she may be pregnant. I do wonder how the male will be during the females heats, I bet some dogs go absolutely crazy and can't calm down (just guessing though, I've never done it). You'd have to see how your male reacts.

Thank you for understanding as well.

This sounds like what I am planning to do. I have seen my male around bitches in heat and know it is not unmanageable and he does not become a crazed fiend. But even supervised, I will not be letting the two together when the bitch is in heat. And when I suspect that she will be going into heat, and for days and days after her heat.

I am also not against emergency spays and the shot that I know is available and will do that *if* anything happens.

 

[Aescleah]

hi here is some information about this subject i am not trying to change opinions and i know itsa hot subject but i think its interesting information for those who are curious and want to learn both sides of the argument

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete

http://www.acc-d.org/2006 Symposium Docs/Duffy2.pdf

Ashley

 

[Equinox]

Oh, and for those who do not know me, I promise you I can type up an entire book on Why My Dog Should Not Be Bred.

Sure, I love him. I think he's the best dog in the world, and wouldn't want him any other way. He's got an impressive pedigree - KKL1 SchH titled dogs, many with SG ratings, and some V show rated dogs. Crok, Lord behind him.

But you know that pet quality, wonderful companion type, not quite up to breeding par dog you sometimes get in a litter? That's my baby. He's got nerves of steel and a temperament to die for, but if I were a breeder, I'd have him marked as the "companion quality" dog, too. Working drive is not all there, could use a bit more fight drive and less prey drive. More "thinking dog" and less impulsiveness (should improve with age, though). Definitely could be better conformation-wise. He's a bit stretched, loose lips, stands east-west and is a bit cow hocked.

Love all his qualities, faults or no, but that's pet quality.

Convinced yet that I don't want to breed him?

Bitches can have silent heats; the only way you'll know is by your dog's reaction to her and hers to him. If she starts being unusually playful toward him, she may be going into heat, especially if she's playful then snarky. They can go through an entire heat cycle without ever bleeding or even swelling remarkably.

Big thank you for the advice. Silent heats are the biggest worry for me - and I will now make sure I talk to several breeders about signs and changes to watch out for.

The best possible solution is to have someplace where your male can stay during the heats. It will save your sanity and having to watch him be so miserable. If that's not possible, then two LOCKED doors between them at all times.

I will stay with my male, who will be locked up in my room, in his crate. The female will be staying in another room (preferably with another person) in her crate. Both behind locked, closed doors.

Maybe I'll camp out and scootch the bed in front of the door while I'm at it!

hi here is some information about this subject i am not trying to change opinions and i know itsa hot subject but i think its interesting information for those who are curious and want to learn both sides of the argument

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete

http://www.acc-d.org/2006 Symposium Docs/Duffy2.pdf

Ashley

Thank you Ashley for sharing these. These are definitely among some of the articles I was given to read, and they provided to be helpful to me personally.

 

[corgipower]

Thank you for this - is there anything you would recommend to be more prepared for this? Signs to watch for, etc?

It varies.

You'll know your dogs best.

With Leo, my intact male GSD, he showed zero interest in bitches in heat. With Tyr, he starts camping out in front of Nyx's crate and trying to climb in her crate shortly before she's in heat.

On the female side of things, Morgan got very crabby and got a mildly upset stomach as well as started flagging. Nyx shows no signs until there are smears of blood on the floor after she lies down.

Also, it's usually every 6 months. There are some dogs that come in more or less often, but my females stuck with the 6 month plan, so I can also go by the calendar. I start keeping Nyx and Tyr separated in early May and November.

 

[Laurelin]

Nikki was the worst of all our dogs to deal with. she would go just bonkers before and during her heat. She was much much worse than the males trying to get to Trey. She flagged and humped everything when she was going into heat. Trey on the other hand had no interest in either of our intact bitches.

As can be said they can have silent heats too which are very hard to detect. We dealt with a false pregnancy once too with Nikki again.

 

[Renee750il]

I will stay with my male, who will be locked up in my room, in his crate. The female will be staying in another room (preferably with another person) in her crate. Both behind locked, closed doors.

Maybe I'll camp out and scootch the bed in front of the door while I'm at it!

I know the locked doors sounded a bit over the top, but I've never had a GSD who couldn't open doors that weren't locked.

 

[Equinox]

Looks like I'll be putting them on a separation/crate and rotate schedule at the slightest indication until I learn exactly how to read both of them better regarding the heat cycles.

Nikki was the worst of all our dogs to deal with. she would go just bonkers before and during her heat. She was much much worse than the males trying to get to Trey. She flagged and humped everything when she was going into heat.

Oh, boy. Sounds like something to look forward to!

I will be talking to some more breeders (mostly GSD specific) and vets (hopefully vets who work with breeders) on pyo to get a better feel for it and the benefits of spaying earlier. If it ends up being significantly better medically to spay a female at an earlier age, I will do so and forgo showing. It is not a priority anyway.

Hopefully, however, I will be able to at least enter in a few conformation events. I know UKC has an altered class, but my preferences are still definitely for AKC and SV.

 

[Equinox]

I know the locked doors sounded a bit over the top, but I've never had a GSD who couldn't open doors that weren't locked.

Not over the top at all. Always better safe than sorry.

I wouldn't put it past a determined dog to figure out how to open doors. I actually think Trent has managed to open doors once or twice, when we dared go on a car ride without him (doG forbid!). Still not sure if it was because we did not close the door all the way, though, as he has not managed to repeat it.

Sometimes he can be dumb as rocks, but when it comes to the important things, no way am I underestimating this guy!

 

[joce]

didn't read all the replys...


You'll learn quick if its for you. Depending on your male you may decide to alter him I was lucky that my boy took a "hush" and he would quit the whining. He never had any issues not listening or not eating etc. But I have been around dogs that are the opposite and one or the other would loose the organs quickly!