Once Bitten Twice Shy?

[Izzy's Valkyrie]

So, after the failed herding eval yesterday, we had Izzy out to eat her dinner while we were cooking ours. After dinner we were getting ready to watch a movie and I notice Izzy chewing on something. Knowing that she didn't have any crunchy toys in the vicinity, I want over to get whatever it was away from her. Usually, if it's not one of two super loved things (meat or icecream), she'll let me take anything that isn't food from her no problem. Well, I have no idea what this was but as soon as I got my hand near her mouth she lashed out with a growl and got my thumb pretty good.

Justin of course kenneled her after I pushed her away from me and yelled at her. A few minutes of cleaning up blood and bandaging later, I didn't even want to look at her. And I'm still upset about it. After 20 years of having dogs, I have never been bitten so hard that blood was drawn before (excluding Izzy puppy's over exuberant kiss her first morning home that nearly pierced my lip). My thumb is still pretty well swollen, hurts to bend, and is missing a good amount of skin on the top side. (Two small punctures on the bottom side, including one on my pad ) So I'm all of a sudden wary of my dog and don't know how to handle it.

I made Justin take her out for the rest of the night after it happened and I only took her out twice today. On the way back into the apartment tonight, I had her sniff my thumb and she actually spent time sniffing it which made me nervous... I dunno, I guess I felt like she was sizing it up for future snacking. I almost took my hand away but didn't want to startle her. I've never been afraid of dogs before so it's odd for me to be shy of Izzy, especially when she's probably the second smallest dog I've ever owned.

I don't know what to think I know she didn't bite me out of spite or anything and she probably won't bite me again unless I take something else from her but I'm worried she might be starting to resource guard...

So yeah, once bitten, twice shy. How many of you guys have had your dog draw blood when they weren't just playing around? And, what did you do afterward?

 

[bubbatd]

Yes , but it was my fault . My dogs would nibble meat off a hand held bone by me .... I tried this with Ollie and Jan's Seger ... Ollie didn't like the way Seger grabbed the bone and snapped at Seger , but got my thumb pretty darn well . Had I not pulled back , it wouldn't have been so bad . Luckily I can remove anything from Ollie's mouth . I would guess it was meat . I always recommended new puppy owners to give and retrieve food from mouth . Say " good dog " and give back .

 

[Beanie]

Happy nailed me once really good and it took me a long time to feel completely comfortable around him with food and treats again. And yeah, for a little while after that I didn't even want to touch him. It's pretty much heartbreaking to be hurt by your dog, so it's understandable. But it did happen... it just takes time. (((HUGS)))

If you're worried that she's starting to resource guard I would recommend trying to work with her now before it gets worse... if you have a good trainer in the area get ahold of them for an evaluation. It might have just been she had something particularly yummy, it might be she was stressed out from the day and just got pushed a little far, it could be a lot of things that are a one-off instead of a real problem... but if you're worried, don't leave it. You know your dog better than anybody and know if it's time to take serious action.

 

[Maxy24]

I'm so sorry this happened to you, I can't imagine how scary that must have been! And how much it must of hurt you emotionally as well. I think people tend to take advantage of dogs who don't get angry when they take things. They are not aware they are doing ti but because the dog does not guard they just take things. In turn the dog LEARNS to guard because people keep taking his stuff and he's had enough of that, being a "good dog" is punishing for him, you take his things. So I believe, whether someone's dog guards or not you should always attempt to give the dog something in return, something really good, when you take his stuff. Obviously you can't in an emergency but if it's something that won't kill the dog, go grab a treat and give that to him when you take his things. Even do set ups, give the dog high value treats (bones), walk and take them, give a treat and give the bone back.


but for YOU at this point I think it could be dangerous to do some of those things anymore, you never know. I would treat him as a resource guarder. Start hand feeding, start teaching him to "drop it" with his toys, give him a treat then give the toy back. Then work up to a brand new toy, then work up to a safe (to chew) stolen item (I don't know what he likes to steal, preferably not food at this point) and then work up to raw bones or other long lasting dog chews, if you want start by just walking up and giving treats without trying to take anything, so you get him used to just your approach. ALWAYS give a really good treat, make your treat get better as the things you are taking get better. And if you can, give the object back (so don't only take things when you need to keep them). If you can't give the object back because it is a forbidden object try and give him something great in return that he can chew on like a raw bone, edible dog chew or pre-stuffed kong (stuff and freeze some for these instances) if he likes those.

It could have just been a fluke but in any case I think it's important that he learns you are not just out to take all his stuff so he is not likely to do this again.

 

[Laurelin]

Yes I was bitten a few times by Trey. The last time he got my thumb pretty similarly to what you're describing. I still have the mark on my nail even though Trey's been gone a while now. He also got the back of my hand a few years ago. I have a permanent Trey sized tooth scar on the back of my hand. You can count teeth and see just how big his mouth was...

When he got me the last time, it scared me badly. A bite on the thumb hurts like you can't believe, really, so I know how painful it was. It didn't take long before I realized it was an accident that mostly had to do with his lack of eyesight and went from there.

 

[Izzy's Valkyrie]

Thanks for all the responses I'm going to work on the guarding more with your suggestions. As of now, she's only defensive around her food and whatever it was that she had that night. She does a solid drop-it on all of her toys/rawhides but I'm going to work for things like socks (Her favorite stolen item ever). She will let me add things to her food bowl (She loves egg yolks), I'll have to get her more used to that. Sometimes, if she's gotten her dinner a bit later than usual, she'll lay down with her arms around her dish while eating if we're walking by. Need to work on things like that. Definitely need to nip any potential RG in the bud!

I'm still wary. It's only really iffy when I need to reach near her head and I don't know, just freaks me out still. And now, every time I need to get something from her mouth, I just make her drop it so I can't be bitten for reaching in her mouth. So I'm working on it but I hope that I'll feel completely comfy with her again sooner rather than later.

 

[Doberluv]

I'm sorry that happened to you. Hope you heal up soon. Keep that wound clean. (not peroxide) Have you had a tetanus shot in the last 10 years? Dog bites are very dirty.

Fighting Fire Without Fire

I strongly recommend you read this entire thing. It will give you a lot of in depth information about this and what to do. Good luck. You are wise to learn all you can and nip (pardon the pun) this is the bud as it can become a very dangerous situation. If you have any doubts or trouble, do get yourself a good pos. method trainer or behaviorist who knows how to deal with this. Not every trainer really knows behavior, so be careful.

 

[Izzy's Valkyrie]

Thanks for the site Doberluv I read through the whole thing as soon as I got your post. Good information there.

However, I am now just as freaked out by Izzy as I was the night she bit me. I went to give her a chew to help her settle into her crate for the night and I was just sitting outside of her kennel a few feet away when she decided to growl and do a partial lunge (kennel was in the way but she didn't hit herself against the bars) in my direction. So, now I'm freaked out again *sigh* I don't like bein afraid of my dog. It's 3:33 in the morning and I can't sleep because I'm afraid of this dog I've had for nearly 8 months now with no issue.

It's just so weird for me to be afraid of any animal. But I've never had any mammal bite me with intent to hurt. (Cat doesn't count, she's just spiteful and mean and still never took that amount of skin off me).

In an attempt to buck up and deal with it, after taking her out tonight, I fed her some food a piece or two at a time from my hand (left because I need to be able to write should she decide to bite again). The whole thing freaked me out though. I know being afraid isn't going to help, that predators can smell fear and all it does is excite them, but I don't know that I'm quite able to trust her mouth near my skin again without being on edge. Its at the point where I don't want to touch her food bowls even when they're empty. She's never ever gone after me before because of an empty bowl but I've just got myself too psyched up over the night she got me.

I don't want to be afraid of my dog

 

[lizzybeth727]

How old is Izzy?

 

[Doberluv]

You need to put the bowl away. Don't even use a bowl for some time. She thinks she owns it so eliminate that right now. Hand feed, but ask her for a sit and some other tricks she knows first. Feed in various locations so she doesn't equate one specific room or area with food, thereby getting the idea that she owns that area. Same with her sleeping area. Use the crate one night, use another room another night, move her around. She doesn't own her sleeping place either.....for now. Mix things up. If you think that is causing her too much stress to sleep in different areas, take it gradually. Don't throw too much at her all at once.

Here, this is very important:

Teaching your aggressive dog deferential behavior

Do not leave anything that she values very much in her possession. No more chews. Stop giving her toys and bones for now. Don't take anything from her until you get this under control. Don't let anyone else take anything from her or make her think someone is going to take something from her. You need to move her away from the thing by using something more valuable and then go get the thing when she's an ample distance away if you must give her something or if she gets hold of something uninvited.

The other thing that is imperative is a vet exam...to check her thyroid and/or brain tumor if this behavior has come on suddenly. How big a dog is she? What breed?

How has she been raised up to now? Has there been any harsh punishment from anyone? Any regular taking of things from her without having something in it for her? What do you do when she whines for something or acts like she wants something? How much reacting, in other words do you do when she acts first?

I'd be giving this dog the cold shoulder for a while...not to an extreme. No way. You don't want to stress her out. But she needs to learn that what she wants and needs is contingent on her behavior.

You really should get a certified behaviorist in to help you....at least for a session or two. Seriously. That lunging when you came near the kennel is over the top. This is not just about food now, it seems.

 

[Izzy's Valkyrie]

Izzy is 10 months and 11 days old.

She cannot be out of her crate when she sleeps, period. When in other rooms she finds things to destroy, if there is nothing readoly available at her level, she starts chewing on the wall or door. So, that's NOT happening. We could move her crate around but honestly she will throw a fit if she isn't in the room with us when it's time for bed.

I have the feeling she lunged in the crate because it's what she does to the cat. When the cat walks by her (outside the crate of course) and she has a treat/chew, she always lunges and "talks" to the cat with these short, sort of yippy growly sounds. She only guards food items. The chew I gave her the night she lunged was one with an edible liver flavored center.

Izzy has never once lunged or growled for a non-food item.

She has no access to toys or chews right now. The only thing in her crate is a blanket and when she wants to play outside of her crate we've been leaving the house. She's never resource guarded at the dog park. Ten other dogs might be at the water dish at the same time and it doesn't bother her. I believe the reason she lays down near her water at home is mainly because we take her away from water at the park (She will drink a gallon if given the chance)

Izzy is a rescue mutt. The mother was obviously a mixed breed and the father is completely unknown. She is labeled as a lab mix by the rescue because this generic title is accepted by all housing associations in the area. her coat is medium in length and soft with an all black body, two white feet and a white patch on her chest. Her mannerisms and coat led us to believe she was a BC mix but we are unsure. Her approximate weight is 40-45 lbs.

The vets in this area are overpriced for the service you get and since we have not established ourselves with one in the area, the initial testing plus any blood work done would cost more than a month's rent. Honestly, it's not going to happen unless she starts to show really drastic changes in behavior.

(No, I'm not saying that if she was in an accident and needed immediate care I would forgo it in favor of money but I'm from an "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" background when it comes to pets. My family vets their cats/dogs once a year for shot boosters after their initial puppy shots/getting fixed)

She's been raised with positive methods to the best of our ability up until now. I tried to do all the right things while she was a puppy, feeding her out of my hand, getting her used to my hand being in the dish while she ate and letting me take the dish from her for short amounts of time then giving it back to her once she sat. The most harsh punishment she gets it for jumping on people which leads to us pushing her away from ourselves/guests but never so forcefully that she trips and falls. When she whines, she is either in the crate wanting to go out, or standing by the door asking to go out. In general her whining leads us to take her outside to go to the bathroom. When she whines in her crate after we've just put her there, she gets ignored. In general, if she exhibits misbehavior, she is ignored or told no. If she doesn't listen, she is crated.

the first time she ever showed food agression she was a small three month or less old puppy. I was offering her a ham bone and as soon as she had it in her mouth she growled if I came near. I took the bone from her and she was crated. This may have damaged her trust of me near food but I wasn't about to have a snarling puppy in the middle of my room. Since then, she has eaten raw meat from my hand and has to sit-stay or down-wait for anything edible from me.

Justin's parents are in town for the weekend so we took Izzy to the state park with us so she got tired out today. She hasn't been ignored today but yesterday spent a lot of time in her crate (out every two hours or so for the bathroom/food) so she learning that she needs to behave when she is uncrated or else she will be left out of the room where all the people are.

We'll be working on getting rid of the bowl and making sure she isn't eating in public spaces but a behaviorist isn't going to be in the picture unless she shows aggression towards anyone besides me.

 

[Mdawn]

Several years ago, I was bitten by a cat that I had at the time...he has since passed on. Anyway, it was a severe bite. He clamped his mouth on my finger and wouldn't let go. My boyfriend actually had to pry his mouth open so I could get my finger out. lol...After that I was very...skittish...around this cat. I could feel panic welling up even if he sat next to me on the couch or when he'd get on the bed with me. I was scared of him. Eventually, I got over it and was able to relax around him but it took a good couple months to feel comfortable around him again. So I know what your feeling in terms of being apprehensive around your dog. The only advice I have about that is to just let it take its course but not to let it overwhelm you. When you feel the panic coming, make yourself stop and take some deep breaths. Walk away from your dog if you need to and calm down...then try again.

As for your dog, my Lab is food aggressive and has been since I got him when he was 3 or 4 months old. There was a time I couldn't even get near him if he had a bowl of food...he'd lunge and snap at me and he would have bitten me if he got the chance. I worked with him heavily, hand feeding him. Because of his lunging, I started by feeding him at a distance and tossing food to him, working up to getting closer and closer to him until he was eating out of my hand. I started that way because, at the time, he was a pretty unfamiliar dog to me and I was trying to get a handle on his body language. I didn't do this with the intention of making him comfortable with me taking things from him, but just so I could safely feed him...I had to push the food toward him with a stick when it was at the worst. I can now be around him while he's eating but other dogs can't. I deal with a lot of it with management. Having a set routine helps. He gets fed at the same times everyday and he's fed in his crate. I make him "work" for his food by having him lay down and "wait" to be released to it. One thing that I noticed with him is his hunger level. If he's really hungry he's more edgy so that is why the set feeding times is helpful. I prevent him from getting so hungry that it puts him over threshold. I still don't think that I could safely take very high value items from him...so when he does have something that he can't have but that he REALLY wants...I trade it for something else. I've even got him to "trade" with me on raw bones that are very high value to him. I've just figured out different little ways to manage and, I guess, manipulate him into giving things up that he has to give up. Not really an ideal solution but its worked for us.

If you can't afford a behaviorist, then you need to pin point where your dog has difficulty and think of ways for you to safely manage it without your dog reaching her threshold. Work on what you can and try to manage the rest.

I don't know if any of this is helpful toward you...but Good luck. RG is the very devil trying to break in my experience...

 

[Doberluv]

I understand the dilema of leaving her out of a crate. I didn't realize she was so young and still unreliable loose in the house.

As far as "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," if she is 'broke (thyroid imbalance or a brain tumor or any number of medical issues that can cause personality changes and aggression) all the training in the world will not help one iota. So, medical issues are always the first thing you want to rule out before continuing with any training regime.

Mdawn, it wouldn't hurt to read that link I put up about resource guarding, I think in my first post. It will give you a more in depth method of dealing with this. Your dog should not be given any high value stuff until he has learned about trading very, very systematically... starting with lower value stuff. Anyway, that link might help you even more. It sounds like you have made leaps and bounds though.

IMO, routine in this sort of situation is not always best. If the dog gets too use to a pattern, same place, same bowl, same time, same context, they sometimes start getting too big for their britches...anticipating and acting on that anticipation. It's often better (jmo, just what I've noticed) to throw them off their game until you have established yourself unmistakenly in the dog's mind, as the one and only one through whom all good things come...that the dog does not dictate any of it. Again, this is never accomplished by harshness or punishment.....just by way of controlling resources.

yesterday spent a lot of time in her crate (out every two hours or so for the bathroom/food) so she learning that she needs to behave when she is uncrated or else she will be left out of the room where all the people are.

Izzy, I don't think she's going to be able to make the connection here unless your timing is impeccable and you use time-outs very briefly (30 seconds) and then back out for another try. You'd have to be very consistent and repeat these entrances, spending time with the social group and then picking a behavior you don't like and responding immediately to it (every single time) by removing her from the area for 30-60 seconds, then another try. Just having her leave the area for good is just one repitition and it is doubful that she'll make an association between the behavior and response.

I think that sounds like too much time in the crate. Be careful not to tie the crate together with a not too nice time or punishment. Today sounds better, where she got some exercise and outlets. Is she getting plenty of exercise most days? That's really important too for good, general behavior, as I'm sure you already know.

For the most part, it sounds like you're doing lots of things just right. You know....maybe she has a not so good temperament to begin with and it has nothing to do with anything anyone did or didn't do. I sincerely hope you'll be able to fix this. Keep us posted. Lots of good vibes being sent your way.