Oldie but goodie... BYB and Puppymiller's book of excuses

[planet molosser]

Sure has to be in part, some breeders be it SHOW Or WORk or backyard can be down right anti social. thus a tad of a snob.

But 2nd part NOPE . Any breeder that shows and or works and or tests for genetic issues NEVER makes MONEY. After many years you may break even.
After a long time after you did it all maybe a profit could turn after a decade or two.

And the only way to show a profit quick is to breed and breed and STOP proving the dogs.

Backyard breeders ALWAYS DO make money. And put the least or min effort in do anything for the dogs.

So #3 it is a contradiction in terms based on justification of breeding backyard dogs .

PS Shelters get rescues from backyard breeders and very few ethical breeders.

Ethical breeders Chip or Tattoo stock drive any where to get their dogs back HOME safe.
So you have direct knowledge of what happens to unwanted animals.
they were "BRED " by someone.


Backyard breeders dump them in shelters or dont gives a rats ass where they wind up. Once the check clears the tel stops ringing.

So you have dogs because of bad breeders and millers and pet owners accidents.

 

[Wimble Woof]

I would just like to add another to the book...

" I dont test because it will bring the prices of my pups too high, I want the average person to be able to afford them"

 

[Bahamutt99]

Backyard breeders are the only ones interested in turning a profit in the first place. Reputable breeders -- not necessarily "snobby show breeders," but reputable breeders overall -- frequently lose money. I heard from one of the most respected breeders in APBTs/AmStaffs that she would have to charge $3000 a pup to recoup what she'd spent on her dogs. (Lora of Hartagold. RIP)

 

[dandandat]

PS Shelters get rescues from backyard breeders and very few ethical breeders.

Ethical breeders Chip or Tattoo stock drive any where to get their dogs back HOME safe.
So you have direct knowledge of what happens to unwanted animals.
they were "BRED " by someone.


Backyard breeders dump them in shelters or dont gives a rats ass where they wind up. Once the check clears the tel stops ringing.

So you have dogs because of bad breeders and millers and pet owners accidents.

Oh yes silly me, I thought my shelter and rescue dogs came from reputable people who loved dogs and working with them. I mean I always thought a rescue was a magical place where dogs go to have fun. Perhaps I need to go back to english class and learn what the word rescue really means.

But lets be more serious now instead of trying to prove we know more then other people on the internet.

What is the definition of a back yard breeder?

By reading the first part of what you wrote, I would come away thinking anyone who makes money off of their breading is a back yard breeder.

But that doesn’t quite fit because you went on to explain that some breeders brake even and that further still some do turn a profit.

I would also have to believe that there are people out their interested in breeding, yet ignorant on how to do it properly, but have no monitory motivation. That perhaps they have aspirations of giving their dogs way. They would be “Back Yard Breeders” yet don’t make any money.

So making money or not making money does not seem to be a dog way to delineate between a good breeder and a bad one, as both good and bad breeders can make or loss money on their venture.

Obviously the ‘Back yard’ part doesn’t help much as from what I have read on the subject most of the reputable breeders do it at home too.

So what does that leave? Skill and knowledge. Which makes sense, a reputable breeder is going to have the skill, because in their pursuit of being reputable they will have educated them selves. By contrast not so reputable breeders, interested in money or hobby or the metical of birth, will have not educated them selves as much as they should have (if they did then we can consider them reputable).

But that leaves us with the problem of where to draw the line at skill level and say these people are reputable and these people are irresponsible. We can all agree that there is someone out their that is the foremost authority on breading (or a few people). That her skill level surpasses even most of the reputable breeders out there. If she was so inclined she could go down the list in the first post and explain that all those beneath her are back yard breeders, and these are their excuses.

 

[dandandat]

Backyard breeders are the only ones interested in turning a profit in the first place. Reputable breeders -- not necessarily "snobby show breeders," but reputable breeders overall -- frequently lose money. I heard from one of the most respected breeders in APBTs/AmStaffs that she would have to charge $3000 a pup to recoup what she'd spent on her dogs. (Lora of Hartagold. RIP)

Why does she bread then, assuming she is not a show breeder? she enjoys her work?

 

[planet molosser]

Your agenda is clear you are here to defend and or cloud issues about bad breeders and you had a attuide.

Ethical breeders BREED for the love of the breed and to insure the breeds survival.

Just like many of the founding working kennels of AKC.
The breeders were RICH people who hobbied in breeding . SInce they were millionares and did this for the enjoyment and ego of owning the best of the best.

Today ethical breeders do the same, putting MORE money in then they expect to get out.

Do the math:

Backyard breeders.
Buy stock lets say $ each from another backyard breeder.
2 dogs cost 1k
They do NOT show = zero
Thye do not Work = zero
They do not test = zero
They do not genetic test = zero

They charge lets say $500 per puppy x min one litter a year 8 pups /
Netting 4k - lets say 500 in food bills.

They netted 3 thousand dollar x the amount of litter they breed and the amount they charge.

Ethical breeders :
Buy the best stock they can get paying much more from proven parents.
Show dogs : min 1 000 to 10,000 a year average
Work dogs " cost for working tests and travel are less but lets say 1000 for the average not high in trial.
Genetic tests": Lets say the breed is healthy so only 1 test EX Penn Hips $300 per dog

Add DNA, Avid chips , doing rescue,

Then add the same for the BEST dog food, equipment to show and work.
dual reg to compete in different work and show orgs.

Ethical breeders in the RED , Backyard breeders in the black.

And yes some backyard breeders breed for EGO and to just have a litter and do NOT need money .

End result **** dogs bred from **** breeders that wind up in rescue none the less then the ones making money.

 

[planet molosser]

Left this out novice breeders MENTOR under PROVEN breeders.

In most cases Ethical breeders buy from Professionals thus they apprentice under the breeder who bred their dogs in most cases.

Backyard breeders buy from pet stores, shop for rescues that are intact, brokers, millers , and other backyard breeders.

Thus your analogy does NOT fit.

One of the best things I ever did from showing my dogs is not win Best in shows. It was networking with other ethical breeders who have mentored me for years....

So the LINE is VERY clear for most of us.

And for the record my 1st dog came from a later convicted puppymiller.
Who I helped CONVICT.
At such time the breeder of a different breed attacked the hell out of me online . Since I took the first step towards being a BYBreeder by getting from a breeder who later turned bad.
They stated you are just going to follow that path.

But since I had years of dog shelter work, vet assit work, I took into the prospect of dog breeding the WORSe cases possible.
Soon this dog was proven in all areas & I learned from my novice mistakes.
Years later this same educated breeder asked ME to help them as a expert witness relating to dogs and breeding.

So I am far from perfect and speak from seeing the bottom of the barrel first hand.

So in conclusion whether you breed for extra money, to pay the mortage, and or for ego just to breed your own litter or in some guardian breeds cases - breed a big tough dog to make you feel bigger and tougher.

You are a BACKYARD breeder the minute you excuse breeding UNPROVEN dogs .

I am all for once a breeder breeds a backyard bred litter( no spays no contracts no take back of boomerangs)_ they should be required to work one week in a KILL shelter .

If they have any heart or brains after holding a few dogs as they die from simply no one wanting them they may come out stop breeding for the money or raise the bar in the breeding they do for no money.

 

[dandandat]

Your agenda is clear you are here to defend and or cloud issues about bad breeders and you had a attuide.

I assure you planet molosser I have no agenda but to have a stimulating conversation. To have agenda would imply I have a stake in the matter, but I do not, when I said I don’t know any breeders back yard, mill, or legitimate, I was telling the truth. The open endedness of many of the points in the initial post coupled with the third point intrigued me. And it seemed that a more skilled legitimate breeder could easily categorize a less skilled but still legitimate breeder by many of the points in the first post.

As a legitimate breeder I did not intend to offend you.

when you say:

I am all for once a breeder breeds a backyard bred litter( no spays no contracts no take back of boomerangs)_ they should be required to work one week in a KILL shelter .

Its sounds like a good idea to me, I am just still skeptical how true first part of point number three is in determining who is a back yard breeder and who is not.

 

[planet molosser]

Well the truth is TIME will tell.
A non expert breeder will PROVe the dogs and learn about breeding as time goes buy.
As I pointed out extablished breeds have MENTORS
You cant became a instant expert you need to put your time in the trenches before YOU BREED!.

People who take shortcuts that were detailed in that list are deemed backyard breeders.
Some will make honest mistakes and you are NOT judged by your mistakes but how you CORRECT them.

That post was NOT made from a more ethical vs a really expert ethical point of view. Something you are trying to make of left field.
It was taken from years or REAL first hand knowledge of how REAL backyard breeders screw up royally.

Playing devils advocate on subjects that deal with the lives of animals with souls is NOT my forte.
No gray area of me its black or white.

So please do educate us on what you consider a backyard breeder?
and what is your background to make such a clarifcation?

 

[dandandat]

planet molosser playing devils advocate is what I believe to be an important step in the process of any growth. I often wonder how much ill could have been avoided for creatures with soles if only those bringing about the ill played a little more devils advocate and spent a little less time being head strong about something.

For examples, how many back yard breeders are by an large good people who made roller mistakes. Perhaps if they had played more devils advocate with their decision to breed they might have talked them selves out of it.

 

[planet molosser]

Twisting words, you playing devils advocate has NOTHING to do with personal growth!!.
It has to do with refusing to answer ONE direct question put to you.
While you come up with NON proven opinions on the original post.

You ask open ended question to place doubt on the original poster and or creator of that excuse list.

We have talked many out of being backyard breeders here .
Some dont know they are one till they read that list.

Now answer my question what is a backyard breeder to you?
and what background do you have in dogs?
For the 2nd time asked

Your timeline proves your agenda which speaks louder than the words you write.

 

[LappieLover]

Well, here is what I look for in a breeder:

1) Dogs/bitches must be health tested in multiple ways. That includes OFA, PennHip for hips, elbows, knees, heart, etc. , genetic testing (different breeds have different genetic problems, this is why you MUST RESEARCH). Plus, thyroid must be tested (just always a good idea).

2) Dogs/bitches must be titled in some way. They must prove that they are worth breeding. Birthing/whelping/breeding is all so dangerous. Why risk a dogs life to produce low end puppies? Just to clarify- working titles, show titles, obedicence/rally titles are all important. I would not want to breed a dog with only one title, unless it was just an AMAZING dog in that arena.

3) puppies must come with a lifetime health guarentee, and a spay/neuter contract.

4) Breeder must provide proof of all certifications

5) Breeder must ask me about a million questions about my life style to make sure that I am the right fit for the puppies/breed. It is THEIR responsibility to weed out the crappy buyers, and they have a right to expect only the best homes for their dogs.

So, I would expect to pay anywhere from $900 to well over a thousand from a breeder like this, depending on the quality of the kennel, and what is "normally" produced there.

Anything less is a back yard breeder. People who make excuses for not producing the best of the best. I do not believe that ignorance is an adequate excuse for breeding subquality dogs, nor is making the almighty buck.

If people are turned off by the price tag or the grilling questions of a quality breeder, they should consider breed rescue or adopting from the pound.

 

[dandandat]

Twisting words, you playing devils advocate has NOTHING to do with personal growth!!.
It has to do with refusing to answer ONE direct question put to you.
While you come up with NON proven opinions on the original post.

You ask open ended question to place doubt on the original poster and or creator of that excuse list.

We have talked many out of being backyard breeders here .
Some dont know they are one till they read that list.

Now answer my question what is a backyard breeder to you?
and what background do you have in dogs?
For the 2nd time asked

Your timeline proves your agenda which speaks louder than the words you write.

I ask questions because I would like to learn something and to stimulate conversation. You think there open ended because you don’t have a good answer.

A backyard breeder is nothing to me, as I have explained about four times already I don’t know any breeders, backyard, legitimate, or mill.

As for my background in dogs, I am a dog owner.

I don’t know what timeline you are referring to. But once again I have no agenda and I do not feel strongly on this issue one way or another.


I am happy you have talked people out of making mistakes, you should be proud of that.

 

[Fran27]

Dandandat, I have to admit that I have no clue whatsoever about what you're trying to say.

The difference between a backyard breeder and a good breeder is easy - the good breeder only breeds to improve the breed.

I'm not sure what those two pages of arguments were about

 

[dandandat]

Well, here is what I look for in a breeder:

1) Dogs/bitches must be health tested in multiple ways. That includes OFA, PennHip for hips, elbows, knees, heart, etc. , genetic testing (different breeds have different genetic problems, this is why you MUST RESEARCH). Plus, thyroid must be tested (just always a good idea).

2) Dogs/bitches must be titled in some way. They must prove that they are worth breeding. Birthing/whelping/breeding is all so dangerous. Why risk a dogs life to produce low end puppies? Just to clarify- working titles, show titles, obedicence/rally titles are all important. I would not want to breed a dog with only one title, unless it was just an AMAZING dog in that arena.

3) puppies must come with a lifetime health guarentee, and a spay/neuter contract.

4) Breeder must provide proof of all certifications

5) Breeder must ask me about a million questions about my life style to make sure that I am the right fit for the puppies/breed. It is THEIR responsibility to weed out the crappy buyers, and they have a right to expect only the best homes for their dogs.

So, I would expect to pay anywhere from $900 to well over a thousand from a breeder like this, depending on the quality of the kennel, and what is "normally" produced there.

Anything less is a back yard breeder. People who make excuses for not producing the best of the best. I do not believe that ignorance is an adequate excuse for breeding subquality dogs, nor is making the almighty buck.

If people are turned off by the price tag or the grilling questions of a quality breeder, they should consider breed rescue or adopting from the pound.

All good points LappieLover.


Let me ask you though, what dos the "best of the best" mean?

You say titles are important to determine this, you would not bread a dog with only one title, bet then you contradict your self by saying you would if it was Amazing. What does Amazing mean? Is Amazing for you the same as Amazing for Planet Molosser, or the back yard breeder?

But that aside, how many titles are needed not to be a backyard breeder, more then one, so is two ok, or are we talking 10, 100? Maybe 300? Can someone who only breed dogs that have won over 100 titles call everyone who breed dogs with less then 70 back yard breeders?

 

[dandandat]

Dandandat, I have to admit that I have no clue whatsoever about what you're trying to say.

The difference between a backyard breeder and a good breeder is easy - the good breeder only breeds to improve the breed.

I'm not sure what those two pages of arguments were about

You would have to ask those arguing why they are arguing, I am simply trying to have a conversation about breeding and what makes a back yard breeder.


While your definition "the good breeder only breeds to improve the breed" sounds good in the abstract, I am sure their are countless back yard breads that think they are improving the breed, and who’s motivations are to improve the breed. So by your definition these people are good breeders. When in reality however because they lack the knowledge to make good on their intensions they are in fact back yard breeders.

 

[Fran27]

While your definition "the good breeder only breeds to improve the breed" sounds good in the abstract, I am sure their are countless back yard breads that think they are improving the breed, and who’s motivations are to improve the breed. So by your definition these people are good breeders. When in reality however because they lack the knowledge to make good on their intensions they are in fact back yard breeders.

Then they are not breeding to improve the breed.

So my definition still stands

 

[dandandat]

Then they are not breeding to improve the breed.

So my definition still stands

Touche

 

[planet molosser]

Okay I had enough this smells like a troll who joined only after the post about this subject was listed.

You are making assumptions based on your own LACK of knowledge in the area.
We answer your questions for you to reword them and to ask them again.

I wrote this and last post on the matter since all you wish to do is to blow SMOKE screens arounds the facts.

Chaz was started many years ago.
Most people dont just pop in on a site with stated views ex PRO back yard breeding on a anti dog breeding site.
Unless they are kids. Chaz kids ,even the ones from backyard breeder parents are the future of ethical dog breeding.

So this thread a "oldie but a goodie" is posted on June 7th
You out of the blue join June 8th

And out of the 100 or more of recents threads posted between that day & today this is the one you choose to take a stand on is this one.
Added you do NOT intro yourself under intros.
You post a few non combative posts but find you way back to this one time and time again.

You respond to me stating a fact that you alleged "shelter dogs" came from backyard breeders.
With sarcasm, another alert goes up, most who adopt would of responded with ex OMG you should of seen the conditon my dog was in, or I was lucky to get him or her out,or I spent this money to try to help this issue, or the worse cases I saw when I was there, or my friend had this in her shelter dog.

Not with sarcasm and more smoke created around a very CLEAR topic.

My own personal wish is that their is a Rainbow HELL for backyard breeders, millers and advocates there of.

So all the pain and suffering caused by them comes back to them in the end.

You dont need to be a backyard breeder or a breeder to take a stand on breeding for the betterment of the breed..

YOU JUST NEED TO BE A HUMAN WITH A HEART!

 

[LappieLover]

A dog that is amazing in conformation is one that has reached a HOF (hall of fame, this goes per breed) or one that has produced multiple champions and has a ROM or ROMX title. If you have questions about what those are, you should look them up. I'm not much of a teacher.

An amazing agility dog would have an MACH of 15 or 16 (if they are AKC registered). I don't know much about the other registeries.

It just depends on what YOU as a buyer would want the dog for. Obviously, if you want a working dog, your breeder would have Schutzhund titles or Herding titles PLUS the health certs.

I don't think I'm speaking greek here, LOL!

Real breeders do things with their dogs. They compete with them. They compare them to other dogs. Breeding in a Vacuum is the quickest way to destroy your breed.

If you question that, then I'm with Plant M on her opinion of you.