Okay to Pull?

[Maxy24]

Many (most) of us hear don't buy Cesar's made up pack theory junk. A dog pulls because he's faster than you, not because he thinks he's higher up on some hierarchy than you are, he's not thinking about that, you are His methods work simply because he punishes dogs for undesirable behavior (behavior changes when it is punished or reinforced) not because of dominance.

 

[Deathcricket]

There goes any respect anyone on this board will have for your opinion, TBH.

I highly, highly suggest you research Cesar Milan in more depth and realize the archaic, punishing methods he uses on dogs do not work.

I could less about respect. BUT I have trained my dog the same exact way and have had awesome results. If you have any information contrary, I would be very interested. My relationship with my dog is VERY important and I love to read. Shoot me a link or two.

 

[RD]

Little dogs are way tougher than they look. I walked my miniscule Papillon on a flat buckle collar without a problem.

When I use harnesses, it's because I want the extra security for my dog, not because I'm afraid my frantic dog will injure her neck because she's pulling on the leash.

 

[AllieMackie]

I could less about respect. BUT I have trained my dog the same exact way and have had awesome results. If you have any information contrary, I would be very interested. My relationship with my dog is VERY important and I love to read. Shoot me a link or two.

Cesar Millan: The Dog Whisperer? The history, background and reputation of Cesar Millan.

Why veterinary behaviorists can't stand Cesar Millan - DoLittler: Blog | Dog Time - Dog Blog Network

Real Man?s Guide To Dog Training: Dominance is not Leadership (Part 1) - Dog Spelled Forward | Dog Time - Dog Blog Network

The dog trainer's trainer | Dog Time - Ian Dunbar takes on Cesar Millan (a good comparison between Millan and what many of us here consider a good dog trainer, Dr. Ian Dunbar)

 

[Dekka]

there is LOADS of info to the contrary..

for starters the American society of veterinary behaviourists (Dog Whisperer, Dog Psychology and Cesar Millan) are against all that he promotes (which should say something) If you google you will find lots of info from people who actually train dogs and spend their lives studying them all denouncing him. In fact I don't think you will find one behaviourist that supports him. (he success rate isn't really that high in the scheme of things. There are people here who are far better at working with problem dogs IMO.

I have never understood the idea that dogs would think they are dominant if they were faster... why aren't all sled dogs ruling the world? Or service dogs? Not that I buy any of the dominance or pack theory crap.. but even if I did I wouldn't ever believe that as its not logical from a dog's point of view, or born out in reality.

All my small dogs walk on flat collars. I do like Dekka to walk in front of me (and she is NOT trying to take over lol, I have trained her that way) esp when we are running. But she isn't pulling. And she has a phenominal competition formal heel when cued so its not a biggy.

 

[Laurelin]

My dogs have quite a bit of freedom on their leads. They usually walk with Mia a foot or so ahead of me and Summer a foot or so behind. I have them on a coupler so it works and they never get tangled with each other. They can go sniff things if they want. I do require in large crowds they heel but that's about it. They're both very well behaved on a leash.

It works for us. I've tried harnesses before and just don't like them. Plus my dogs are extremely hard to fit. It seems harnesses are not shaped for papillons. The papillons are not as stocky as most dogs so harnesses are either too wide for the length or too short for the width... it looks ridiculous usually.

Actually most our walks are at the off leash parks so they're not on a lead but that's besides the point.

 

[Beanie]

All my small dogs walk on flat collars. I do like Dekka to walk in front of me (and she is NOT trying to take over lol, I have trained her that way) esp when we are running. But she isn't pulling. And she has a phenominal competition formal heel when cued so its not a biggy.

Exactly this.

I am not interested in being "boss" of my dog. What a crappy relationship we would have if I had to be boss.

 

[smeagle]

Owning a Siberian Husky one of my biggest pet hates are owners who let them pull their arms out of their sockets because "it's what they were bred for" and therefore the dog can't be trained otherwise... grrr! My Sibe has a beautiful LLW

 

[~Tucker&Me~]

BUT I have trained my dog the same exact way and have had awesome results. If you have any information contrary, I would be very interested. My relationship with my dog is VERY important and I love to read. Shoot me a link or two.

Cricket,

I would highly recommend reading some of the links provided. Cesar Milan is kind of the bane of all 'real' dog behaviorists/trainers. His methods are based around punishment and negativity, and there is a major lack of research and knowledge contributing to his many theories. I will not be surprised if you change your mind about him after reading some of the info provided!

There goes any respect anyone on this board will have for your opinion, TBH.

I highly, highly suggest you research Cesar Milan in more depth and realize the archaic, punishing methods he uses on dogs do not work.

I think that was a little harsh. I am under the impression the poster isn't very well informed about the subject. He has expressed interest in learning - not knowing isn't a crime If I didn't know any better I would probably think Cesar is fab too, with only a single yank he can turn an aggressive dog into a lover :lol-sign:

Seriously though, I think I have a higher opinion of Cricket than before, because being open to learning and new ideas is the most important thing!

 

[Fran101]

If I cared enough to spell check I would have, thanks.

A dog pulling on the leash means it's taking you where it wants to go. It may not be a big deal to you, but it's a big deal to them (the dog). It means that you (the leash holder) are submissive to your dog and subject to it's whims. Letting a dog have this kind of attitude causes lots of other problems. Whether the dog is large or small is irrelevant. But small dogs get away with it because they are " so cute" and this is not immediately obvious to a lot of people. You need to be the boss, you need to take your dog for a walk, not let it take you for a walk. watch the dog whisperer (Cesar Millan) and the crap he fixes just by teaching people how to properly walk their pets.

Someone letting their dog pull them says "Hi I'm a weak, lazy, submissive person and this dog owns me" IMO. :rofl1:

Edit: No offense to the person who "trains" their dog to pull in a harness. Completely different situation and NOT to be confused with my point of "letting" their dog pull them around. Some of the best trained hunting dogs do the exact same thing. But IMO it's very easy to spot the difference. Hopefully I'm not misquoted, hehe.

lol for the record, my chihuahua walks perfectly on a lead. and even if he didn't, it certainly wouldn't be because of any "be the pack leader" non sense lol

I let my dog on the bed, he eats before I do, if I tell him its ok..he walks in front of me on walks, I babytalk..
and *gasp* Hes a very well behaved dog, and I trained him to do a perfect heel without yanking on his lead or making strange *PSHHHH* noises at him lol

I trained him using common sense lol and I didn't have to look like a moron on the street snapping at my dog and making ***PSHH*** noises :rofl1:

What I was saying in my post is that it doesn't bother me if somebody has a small dog that pulls. they arent going to pull their owner towards me or my dog..
Like it or not, there is a difference between that and a 80 pound dog wanting to pull their owner... because they very well COULD pull him/her into the street or to me and my dog.
it has nothing to do with how cute they are, and everything to do with the fact that they physically CANNOT pull their owners where they want to go (across the street, to another dog, etc..)

I dont just judge people whose dogs are pulling them. Maybe they are in training, maybe they just adopted the dog, maybe they are the dog walker.. who knows?
but who the heck am I to sit up on my high horse and look down on them like they are "weak, lazy people" just because the dog whose leash they are holding is pulling them?
You don't even know them or the dog, so how can you already decide what kind of person they are?

 

[Deathcricket]

Cesar Millan: The Dog Whisperer? The history, background and reputation of Cesar Millan.

Why veterinary behaviorists can't stand Cesar Millan - DoLittler: Blog | Dog Time - Dog Blog Network

Real Man?s Guide To Dog Training: Dominance is not Leadership (Part 1) - Dog Spelled Forward | Dog Time - Dog Blog Network

The dog trainer's trainer | Dog Time - Ian Dunbar takes on Cesar Millan (a good comparison between Millan and what many of us here consider a good dog trainer, Dr. Ian Dunbar)

Thank you for the links! Much appreciated and read everything. I didn't find anything very interesting in there though. Just a lot of bashing and half-truths. Even the comments at the bottom of the articles were more accurate than the articles themselves, hehe. No one ever suggests beating your dog into submission, or choking it unconscious. I suspect both types of training would work fine. It reminds me of the argument "do you spank your kids?" Some people argue spanking is child abuse and others say corporal punishment is fine. I also saw no where in any of those articles that says it's perfectly fine to let your dog tug on it's leash all day long and that proves your dog is being loved properly. And frankly, a lot of his techniques seem lacking. If he had a show where he goes in and corrects some dogs with problems though I probably would change my mind seeing him in action like Cesar. That's the power of that show, it gets results. Whether or not it's morally correct to use a choke collar, shock collar, or whatever I think is each person's choice and they should follow their heart.

I did run into this article which picks apart the show though and thought I would share. these are some valid points against being "dominant".

The Dominance Controversy and Cesar Millan

I would also be curious about information on which takes less effort and which offers better results (if you have it). I'm sure it depends on the type of breed and effectiveness/effort of the trainer. A golden retriever anxious to please would respond better than a headstrong Jack Russell for instance to different stimuli. There was some info like "44% of people that hit their dogs experience bites" and "3% of people that use food lures experience bites" but again the information is misleading. Too many variables and absolutely no explanation how they arrived at those figures or backgrounds. Plus a suspect that people who hit dogs probably tend to have more aggressive breeds.

Regardless, the conversation is about letting your dog pull you around and if it's "ok". I still maintain that people who let their dogs pull on the chain show a lack of training and discipline in their dog. the dog is doing whatever it wants and the owner is making no attempt to control it. Just like people who let their kids do anything they want and don't control your spoiled brats, same exact thing. Maybe "dominance" was the wrong choice of words I used. How about "control" instead? If your dog is pulling on the leash, it is in control, not you.

Again, if you train your dog (to pull) for personal preference, sledding, or whatever, that is totally different. I've yet to see a poster in this thread say they are fine with their dog trying to yank their socket out of their arm, but it's too light to worry them. I don't use a leash for my dog anymore. But, I run my dog ahead of me on single track trails for the simple fact I can keep a better eye on him. He does occasionally find a distraction and want to pursue it. When I'm on a sidewalk he's beside me, and on a bike he's just behind. We are talking about letting your dog do what it wants vs controlling it right? What method you use to achieve said training is not as important as it's done. If you use food to lure your dog into training, you are still controlling it and that makes you it's master, not his friend. Just using the carrot instead of the stick. Simple.

 

[Doberluv]

Cricket,

I would highly recommend reading some of the links provided. Cesar Milan is kind of the bane of all 'real' dog behaviorists/trainers. His methods are based around punishment and negativity, and there is a major lack of research and knowledge contributing to his many theories. I will not be surprised if you change your mind about him after reading some of the info provided!



I think that was a little harsh. I am under the impression the poster isn't very well informed about the subject. He has expressed interest in learning - not knowing isn't a crime If I didn't know any better I would probably think Cesar is fab too, with only a single yank he can turn an aggressive dog into a lover :lol-sign:

Seriously though, I think I have a higher opinion of Cricket than before, because being open to learning and new ideas is the most important thing![/QUOTE]

Ditto this^^^

I use a harness on my Chihuahuas. I don't want to risk one false move with their tiny necks. Trained or not trained, dogs are not infallable. They are not always predictable and their fragile tracheas and tiny spinal cords aren't worth the risk to me of using a collar. Jose` will start out for a few steps pulling and I just remind him by stopping. We do that a couple of times and he says, "Oh yeah, I forgot. I'm so excited to go for a walk. Plus, this harness thing kind of digs into my arm pits if I pull." And then he walks the right way the rest of the walk. LOL.

I agree that if it doesn't bother someone, who cares? They aren't going to pull you down prone like my 90 LB Doberman did one time. LOL. And no, they're not scheming to dominate or become president. They're simply excited to get-a-move on and see some new sights and smell new smells. Walks are so fun for dogs and they walk faster than we do. We're deadly dull compared to a dog out on a walk. It's seriously nothing more than that. They can be taught not to pull and that has nothing to do with social rank. It has to do with the science of learning behavior...reinforcement for wanted behavior.

 

[~Tucker&Me~]

And no, they're not scheming to dominate or become president. They're simply excited to get-a-move on and see some new sights and smell new smells. Walks are so fun for dogs and they walk faster than we do. We're deadly dull compared to a dog out on a walk. It's seriously nothing more than that. They can be taught not to pull and that has nothing to do with social rank. It has to do with the science of learning behavior...reinforcement for wanted behavior.

If you think about it, it is so silly we put all these motives into our dogs heads......... Is the idea of a dog being excited to get on with his walk too simple for us? :lol-sign:

 

[~Tucker&Me~]

Cricket,

I just read the links too and agree, they are not particularly good articles. However, I know that some do exist. Maybe later tonight I can try and dig up a few that are a little more factual/scientific. I urge you to research further though, as I and many others here believe there are much kinder, more effective, and easier methods with which we can train our dogs.

 

[Deathcricket]

Cricket,

I would highly recommend reading some of the links provided. Cesar Milan is kind of the bane of all 'real' dog behaviorists/trainers. His methods are based around punishment and negativity, and there is a major lack of research and knowledge contributing to his many theories. I will not be surprised if you change your mind about him after reading some of the info provided!

Thanks. I did read them. Had no idea people even disagreed with him. I agree that he uses punishment and negativity when the dog does bad, but I also see him constantly reinforce good behavior with praise and affection. That is just the last thing, not the first. And I don't see punishment as a bad thing. My dog is not injured or suffering any harm during training. I still have no ego though and am always open to suggestions or critiques. So the poster who "lost all respect" or whatever he said doesn't bother me a bit. I prefer honesty above all things. Harsh is fine! So if I'm an "ignorant savage" training my dog with caveman tools, my ego will not prevent me from re-evaluating my methods.

I think the only way to settle this is at the dog park.... My pitbull vs any other dog on here. Since we can't meet in person, how about we record the tests and put it on youtube? We could do "listening in the face of distractions" so have our dog be distracted and then see how quickly it comes back when we call it. Walking off leash and heeling. I can put my dog in front, side or walking behind me and he will stay there. We could do "Not chasing cats off leash". Or since Chiawawa's are involved, we could do "lizard ignorance tests" or something prey size for them...

Although I guess the "results" wouldn't matter eh? It's more the "method" that bothers people I guess... Aww well never mind then, would have been fun.

Edited to add: The last time I even "punished" my dog was June 14th. I remember cause it was flag day. My pit was playing with a Pug and flipped him over a couple times. It was going fine but my pit pinned him and wouldn't let him up for like 10-15 seconds after I told him too. I gave him an Alpha roll, and then I would not let him up while the same Pug chewed on his ears for a bit. After that he played nicely and "let" the Pug take him down just as often as he took him down. That's playing nicely. But that was over a week ago and he's been an angel since. Every once in awhile I gotta put him in line, no biggie.

 

[MPP]

I disagree with people who say, "He can't hurt you, so it's OK if he pulls." A friend's 14 lb. Bichon pulled hard enough, often enough, to actually damage her shoulder. (She now deals with this by dropping the leash and letting him go at his own pace.) Even a dog half his size can make you stumble or even fall if they slam into the end of the leash when you're off balance.

Anyway, what's the big thing about teaching a dog to walk nicely on a leash? Decide what you want and reward heavily for that. Decide what you absolutely do NOT want, and the dog gets nothing for that. Nothing. At all. Same as any other kind of training!

Edit: OP, please go to the training forum here. Read the "Clicker Training 101" sticky, and especially Adrienne's sticky on dog training. Excellent, excellent information.

 

[Dekka]

Praise is valuable to dogs who are punished. It becomes a no punisher marker. Tells the dog its safe. There are MANY pitties on this forum that are just great.

There are people on this forum who qualify for the nationals in agility. I do movies and tv work with my dogs and horses. There are far to many incedences that are televised on his show (which makes me scared to know what happens behind the scenes as reality tv shows are crazy edited) where dogs have bitten owners, he has choked dogs till they are on the edge of consciousness. Even if it works (and his recidivism rate is startlingly high when you start digging) Why on earth would someone want to supress their dog vs making it comfortable. Why pit owners against their dogs? Why use barbaric methods when there are safer and more effective alternatives?

I lost any respect I might of had for the man with the episode where he lets a fight happen between two pit bulls and no one is equipped to break it up. The owner of the dog has the forsight to grab one of the small dogs and keep it safe, yet Milan tells the owners they aren't fit to own their dog and offers to trade them one of his!! The kicker is ANYONE who has ANY dog experience can see the fight coming a full 2 min before it starts... So either A. he let it happen for sensationalism. Or B he is so clueless he couldn't see it coming... either way its horrible to watch and he offered to trade these people's much loved pet as if it was a defective product!! (the dog only had issues with other dogs and was great with people, thankfully the owners refused)

FWIW luring is not terribly effective method of training. Its one of the reasons positive trainers get bad reps, cause those who do lure based training often don't produce a well trained dog with out treats present. lol never bribe your dog, only reward it

It is nice to see someone who is open to looking at it from a new perspective. I came from a 'traditional' obedience background. I ditched the punishment initially as it was slowing down my obedience progress. Then I saw how much better my dogs worked, less stress behaviours (yawning, nose licking, looking away, low tail wagging etc) It was pretty 'revolutionary' to drop corrections.

A golden retriever anxious to please would respond better than a headstrong Jack Russell for instance to different stimuli.

I train pretty high drive Jacks and whippets. IME those who are successful with suppression based trainer ARE those with golden retrievers because they will still work even under hash conditions. Where as a JRT can respond to aggression with more aggression or go 'screw you I am going to sniff the floor till you get a hold of yourself lady' lol

here is a link to my one photobucket account with pics from doing film work with a few dogs and a horse.
Pictures by GreyRun2 - Photobucket

 

[elegy]

My dog is not injured or suffering any harm during training.

how do you know this? i mean really *know* it. not the injured part so much, but the suffering any harm part. do you know what kind of fallout your punishment actually is having?

i have a lovely, headstrong pit bull also. she's confident and bossy and smart and fantastic. i used to use punishment with her, and she pretty much gave me the finger and told me to go pound sand. god love her. other dogs would not have tolerated me with such grace. now that i've learned to work *with* her instead of against her, we're pretty much on the same page most of the time. she has seven obedience and rally titles and i'm so very proud of her. she's an extremely happy worker.

(and yes she pulls on a leash when we're casually walking. like i said, i'm lazy and i don't care that much.)

 

[Laurelin]

I dont just judge people whose dogs are pulling them. Maybe they are in training, maybe they just adopted the dog, maybe they are the dog walker.. who knows?
but who the heck am I to sit up on my high horse and look down on them like they are "weak, lazy people" just because the dog whose leash they are holding is pulling them?
You don't even know them or the dog, so how can you already decide what kind of person they are?

:hail::hail::hail:

Oh god you should have SEEN me walk Mia for the first few times after I got her. You all know the nasty pulling, growling little dog? Yep that was her. She is slightly dog reactive and at first every dog we met would send her off. Nowadays she can pass dogs very close without problem. She's still not totally dog friendly except to dogs she knows well but it's about a 200% improvement.