Obedience trainers - some ideas please?

[Danefied]

Background:
Bates is a crossover dog. He learned heel with collar pops (no prong, no choke) but it still led to a very flat, hesitant dog who tried to stay away from me. Took about 7 months off, found a new trainer, and we built him back up starting from focus and attention.

Problem:
A very sloppy heel. And awkward handler, which I'm working on. I do much better without a leash to fumble with, but I'm going to have to use a leash for novice obedience and rally novice (planning on competing in June).
YouTube - Heeling

Solution:
Teach a butt swing.
YouTube - hind end awareness also

New problem. We're not transfering the butt swing without something to stand on. So I thought about teaching him to "step up" on a potholder. Not thinking his retrieve training would pose a problem, which led to this epic fail. Yes, I suck - I missed like 14 clicks and three in a row at one point. Lucky for me, I have a dog who manages to learn things despite me.
YouTube - Training fail!

Gonna try to get a session in with my awesome non-collar popping trainer soon to work on this, but was wondering if anyone else has some suggestions.

 

[Sekah]

I like to use a book or something as a target if I'm working on targeting. I can see why you went from the first perch to the potholder, but I think it looks like Bates isn't 100% sure when he's standing on the target since it probably feels pretty similar to carpet beneath his paws.

Re: your pivot video it looks like you're helping him out a bit when he gets stuck. Try to resist the temptation to do this when you're shaping. You may think that you're just helping your dog out, but you're actually teaching your dog to stop trying if he doesn't know the answer and wait for you to make it easier for him. I would probably just plop my butt down on a chair and get him to target your perch and orient to you for a little while so he gets used to finding it on his own.

Regarding your heeling, it doesn't look half bad right now. If anything, it just seems a little lackluster. Maybe increase your rate of reinforcement, or use play as a reward. That should increase Bates' interest in your movements.

Good luck on the pivot work. It's the very favourite thing I've ever taught my dog. Once she understood that her back end could move freely from her front it opened up a huge variety of tricks and new training opportunities.

 

[Danefied]

I like to use a book or something as a target if I'm working on targeting. I can see why you went from the first perch to the potholder, but I think it looks like Bates isn't 100% sure when he's standing on the target since it probably feels pretty similar to carpet beneath his paws.

Re: your pivot video it looks like you're helping him out a bit when he gets stuck. Try to resist the temptation to do this when you're shaping. You may think that you're just helping your dog out, but you're actually teaching your dog to stop trying if he doesn't know the answer and wait for you to make it easier for him. I would probably just plop my butt down on a chair and get him to target your perch and orient to you for a little while so he gets used to finding it on his own.

Regarding your heeling, it doesn't look half bad right now. If anything, it just seems a little lackluster. Maybe increase your rate of reinforcement, or use play as a reward. That should increase Bates' interest in your movements.

Good luck on the pivot work. It's the very favourite thing I've ever taught my dog. Once she understood that her back end could move freely from her front it opened up a huge variety of tricks and new training opportunities.

Thank you!
The bolded makes good sense and you're the second person to suggest it.
I'm definitely going to try that.
Now, I will say.. I walk a fine line with Bates when it comes to shaping. He tends to get overly upset/frustrated with free shaping. And at this point, he has so many behaviors to go through before getting to the one I was looking for, I risk getting him overly antsy and shuts down. I do tend to do more luring with him, because it just works better for him and his temperament.

 

[Dekka]

I don't teach pivots at all that way. Not to say perch work won't help, but its not directly related to the pivot.

My suggestion, work on the heel itself more. Off leash (if the dog heels very well you just hold the leash and there is no fumbling)

How I teach a left pivot.

First work on heel as a location. Put your dog in heel and call them to heel (if you want to do formal obedience, don't do it from directly in front... do it with dog to side or behind) Then teach heel backwards.

Once those two things are there a nice pretty pivot just happens. The dog needs know that heel happens in other than just straight forward directions, and needs to be able to BACK around you in a pivot. So backing up works well.

If your dog is a bit slow going from backing up to pivot right away, try backing in a small circle a couple of times first.

 

[Danefied]

I don't teach pivots at all that way. Not to say perch work won't help, but its not directly related to the pivot.

My suggestion, work on the heel itself more. Off leash (if the dog heels very well you just hold the leash and there is no fumbling)

How I teach a left pivot.

First work on heel as a location. Put your dog in heel and call them to heel (if you want to do formal obedience, don't do it from directly in front... do it with dog to side or behind) Then teach heel backwards.

Once those two things are there a nice pretty pivot just happens. The dog needs know that heel happens in other than just straight forward directions, and needs to be able to BACK around you in a pivot. So backing up works well.

If your dog is a bit slow going from backing up to pivot right away, try backing in a small circle a couple of times first.

Thank you so much! He definitely doesn't get heel as a location. This is exactly where we have gone wrong with him.

What I've been trying to figure out is how to fix this after having taught it wrong to begin with. Its hard to freeshape because he has such a strong default automatic sit, and its even harder to get his butt around when he's sitting on it! I really think heeling backwards might do the trick.

Would you lure it or try to free shape it?

 

[Dekka]

This is how I do it (and to improve dogs that have learnt other ways)

First off have a VERY clear idea of what you want.

Then in some boring place with loads of treats and a clicker have your dog off leash.

(How do you cue heel? I dont' use a word)

Wander around don't use your cue but do 'things' to encourage your dog to heel (ie let them see food if that gets their interest, but don't lure) C/T loads for sticking with you. Make it a game. Slowly make it harder to stay with you, move faster, slower, sharp changes of direction. Reward often and with great glee when your dog makes a good effort and stays with you. If it gets to hard make it easier so you can keep your rate of reinforcement high.

Once your dog happily sticks with it, start using your cue (mine is left hand on left hip) and continue. Then start putting your dog in a stay a bit behind you and cue heel and start moving.. c/t when they catch up. When your dog is just minding their own business cue heel (when you have a reward handy) and reward for being in heel.

Heeling can be great fun! Make it a game. I don't lure as I want the dog to play the game with me.

 

[Danefied]

And thank you again Dekka
I will definitely work on this this weekend. (Darned job thing gets in the way of dog training!)

Here's hoping to have a much better heel video up soon...

 

[lizzybeth727]

I agree with Dekka, especially with the not using a target for pivot. I don't use that method either, and IME it seems like it would just be confusing for the dog.

I think practicing without a leash will really help you. A dog that has been trained with collar pops - if the collar pops are aversive to him - will be a little hesitant to do any behavior if he thinks it might involve a collar pop. I also noticed in the first video of you heeling, that right at the beginning of the video - 4th second - you did do a little tiny collar pop. It was so small you probably didn't even notice, but in a really sensitive dog, this alone could cause him to start to shut down and quit trying to work. So hopefully working off leash will help you stop those habits, and help change the idea of heel in his mind as well.

If you taught him a cue for heel back when you were doing collar pops, I'd also suggest changing that cue. You might even consider changing the equipment he's wearing - switch to a harness rather than a collar - so that he's very clear that there will be no more collar pops.

I also just want to reiterate with what Dekka said, you do have to keep your rate of reinforcement really high. I usually start out teaching heel in 2-minute sessions - I time myself and absolutely always stop after 2 minutes - and I'll give 20-30 click/treats in those 2 minutes (I count my clicks to help measure progress). If you're not clicking enough, then your criteria is too high and you need to lower your standards a little.

 

[doberkim]

i dont think many of this has to do with the leash at all. and if you plan on showing in 3 months, then im not sure that there's going to be a ton of time for you to break it down to basics with a clicker - but there are some things that a dog with a solid foundation could easily be fixed in one session with handling:

i think a few things

1) stop looking and waiting for your dog. you spent a very large amount of time looking back over your shoulder at him. that actually pushes him further back! believe me, i know its how i keep berlin OUT of heel position, unfortunately
2) stop moving so hesitantly - move out and heel. you're too slow for the dog, too unsure . just move!!!
3) footwork and handling. you give no body cues that you are changing direction, halting, etc. your dog isn't getting the cues he needs from you so he's not sure - its almost like you're trying to trick him on one of the turns. and in another, you dont turn 180 degrees. i dont want to pick on your handling a ton, but it DOES affect the dogs a lot. trying to smooth out the handling really can both cover up your dogs flaws, and make for such a nicer performance... as can learning to heel in straight lines




regardless if he's popped or treated - he gets none of that in the ring. what you have is you, your body, and your voice - you can talk to him on set ups, you can pet him, you can interact with him. don't be so formal, play with him, enjoy him, and when you're working, move faster. he's barely moving in heel position and he could move so much faster and be more active and engaged - and give more EFFORT - i think you could both be giving more. and more effort on both would make a better picture.

i could critique my own footwork and speed here galore - but im happy with her interaction and her attention, and her EFFORT.

YouTube - berlinheel1.avi


personally the pivots/perchwork wouldnt be my focus, id work on the effort more than anything. its what i spend most of my training time on. i wont move forward until i get effort. and i reward effort at the expense of accuracy every single time

 

[Danefied]

Actually I took Dekka's advice, and in one session we have a huge improvement. I was able to run away from him and then stood there and he found "heel" on his own.
He's a pretty fast learner with the clicker

And yes, I totally agree about my handling - it sucks. I have a date scheduled with my trainer for her to work on me without the dog.

 

[lizzybeth727]

Actually I took Dekka's advice, and in one session we have a huge improvement. I was able to run away from him and then stood there and he found "heel" on his own.
He's a pretty fast learner with the clicker

Yay! Congrats!

 

[Danefied]

Thanks, I was really excited. I'm going to practice some more, and I'll post updated video when I get a chance.

 

[smeagle]

Glad to hear you saw some improvement already!

Personally, I train heelwork without a leash or collar. The first thing I would do with any dog I'm training is work on drive and focus (food or toy) so I get a dog that is excited to play a game with me (this is before I'd even look at introducing commands like heel, etc). Once I've got that, I make it about finding heel position and only when the dog is doing that reliably, precisely and with a nice attitude do I actually take any steps forward. I also try to be unpredictable in terms of when I am going to reward. It might be after 10 steps, it might be after two steps etc. This keeps my dog on her toes as she never knows when the reward is coming. One of the biggest mistakes I see people make is doing too much heel work in training (I know because I am MEGA guilty of it myself!) and doing too much heel work too soon. If your dog can only focus well with a nice attitude for five steps - do four steps then reward. Don't be afraid to build it slowly.