Not so sure about a Great Pyrenees anymore

[sallygoeswaltzing]

My husband and I are currently on the list for a Pyrenean Mountain Dog pup who will be available around January. We met with the breeder yesterday and she was fabulous. She breeds amazing, healthy Pyrs and I was very, very impressed. I'm really confident that if we get a pup from her, it will be a very healthy, sound dog.

However, some of the things she said sort of made me rethink this breed for us. We were originally drawn to the Pyrs because we wanted a mellow dog that was low energy, but still a bit of a challenge to train because of their independence and stubbornness. I was really keen on getting a Doberman that I could compete with in Schutzhund and agility, but then I found out I was pregnant and there was no way that I was going to have the time or the energy to train that kind of dog. So my husband and I started looking at a lower energy breed for a sort of "starter dog", and that's how we got to the Pyr.

But meeting our breeder's dogs, I really got the feeling that we were going to be less of dog owners and more of, well the dog's roommate really. The breeder made it seem like training a Pyr was after a certain point futile, because they only do what's convenient for them. Her dogs were well housebroken, they knew not to jump up on furniture and were as friendly as can be expected of Pyrs who have strangers in their home, but they weren't exactly eager to interact with their owners or to listen to commands. I sort of looked at the breeder's training methods with a bit of scrutiny, she would do things like call them over, and then when they wouldn't come she would go to the treat bowl and say "treat". And then she would say things like "I wouldn't do this with a Border Collie, but you have to with a Pyr". She was also very into "dominating" the dog, saying things like it was important not to walk over a Pyr when he was laying in front of a doorway, because that teaches him that he's boss. And then there was the "there's no hope of you training a recall for a Pyr" comment. I know that they like to wander and recalls are hard to train them, but I don't take that to mean it can't be done!

There were so many little things that she said and did around her dogs that made it seem like she was dealing with a different species from your average dog. I know Pyrs are different to other breeds, but I didn't expect them to be that different. Her dogs are primarily outdoor dogs, so I'm sure our dog who is going to be indoors with the family will act much differently, however I couldn't shake this uneasy sort of feeling I had of really not knowing what the heck to do, and feeling like I was in the dark about how to raise and train one of these dogs. One thing that made me a bit nervous was the fact that our breeder told us we were gong to have huge problems getting a male Pyr to get along with another male dog (we fully intend on getting a male Doberman a few years down the line when I have a bit more time on my hands and when our daughter's older) because Pyrs are a very dominant breed. This is something that, if a Doberman breeder warned me about, I would waive off and feel that with early socialisation around other dogs, neutering, and careful introduction of the two dogs, that I would be able to do it with no problems. But with a Pyr? Honestly I got a little nervous when she said that. I tend to have a lot of faith in my ability to train dogs, I've always done well with the shelter dogs I've dealt with and really there's never been a dog I've encountered who I didn't think I could train. I didn't feel this way around her dogs though. Again, not sure if it's how they were raised and because they're kept outside, or if it's the breed!

 

[Dekka]

Many breeders seem to fall into this 'my breed is sooo different' and really thrive on accentuating the differences.

I have met a few pyrs. While they are more aloof than breeds bred to work with people, they aren't that bad.

I know many people who say crazy things about JRTs that are so not true.

 

[Aleron]

I wouldn't say they are untrainable and certainly question labeling a whole breed as "dominant". But they are a breed who was never selected to have a working relationship with humans, so I would expect them to be very independent. I have had a few in class and they responded well to positive methods but weren't always easy to motivate and didn't want to work for long periods of time. I had one girl join 4h with a Great Pyr and she even did agility with him. He did pretty well and was probably one of the easier ones to train that I have worked with. But her second year, she had to stop bringing him because he became increasingly aggressive to other large male dogs (he was neutered, as were most of the dogs he had problems with). They also had an incident where he bit one of the girl's friends at the house but I don't remember all the details about that. I do remember explaining to the parents that this breed is supposed to be territorial and that they need to make sure they don't put him in situations where he needs to decide what to do about strangers coming into his territory.

 

[Zoom]

It sounds like your breeder might have good bloodlines, but she's hopeless as a trainer. LGD's aren't know for being obedience champ type dogs, but you can most certainly teach them the basics. These dogs aren't going to be like Dobes or the herding breeds that jump atthe chance to work with/for you. Traditionally they grow up with their flocks with a minimum of human interaction and are left to their own devices and instincts.

Since you'll have the dog from a pup, you should be just fine integrating him/her into the household. Find a good trainer and puppy classes, not Petsmart. You're going to be a lot better off finding a good positive-based trainer versus one who tries to teach by force and "the dog is trying to take over" methods--these dogs used to routinely take out wolf packs, they're not really going to care a whole lot about "I'M THE ALPHA" style.

There's a fabulous Pyr breeder on this board, though she's been AWOL for a bit. I'll see if I can track her down and point her to this thread.

 

[Zoom]

Also, same sex aggression is NOT something to just wave off and think you can train it out. It's well known that Dobes, especially males, are known for being extremely same-sex aggressive and any breeder who tried to tell you differently is one I would run far far away from.

 

[Aleron]

Also, same sex aggression is NOT something to just wave off and think you can train it out. It's well known that Dobes, especially males, are known for being extremely same-sex aggressive and any breeder who tried to tell you differently is one I would run far far away from.

This is an extremely good point. If you are set on getting a male Dobe, you really should be looking for a female right now. I suspect most good Dobe breeders will not sell you a male puppy if you have a male Pyr, unless you are planning to crate and rotate.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

I'd honestly rather people be scared off a breed than encouraged into a breed that doesn't suit them. I tell everyone the awful aspects of the malinois first and then the good. If they're still troopin' after hearing the bad they might just be suitable for the good.


That said sometimes people have a different, not wrong, perspective of a breed. Backups breeder laughed at me when I said I'd make him a house dog. Well, look who's laughing now? Oh, wait, still her. He's AWFUL in the house. We keep him crated for down time and outside for play time and then there is training time. If he's loose in the house when we're just watching tv or playing on our computers or eating dinner he's trouble.

We've made minor progress on things over the last 8 months but nothing extraordinary. Sloan is fine in the house, all be it a bit annoying with her toys, but Backup paces, barks, carries toys, launches over furtiniture, obsessively gulps water, throws up the water, slams into you for scratches, and when left just bored enough he'll chew whatever he can reach (luckily I've never let him get anything but a few pair of undies).

There is something to be said for listening to the breeder, they know their lines. Sloans breeder knew very well what she'd become and so did Backups. It's almost amazing really.

Now, I do know some awesome Pyrs that are fine in basic obed but really they DO have a mind of their own. They will listen but mostly when they feel something is in it for them or if they're not working their own job (ie watching the parameter, etc).

There are bound to be some awesomely trained Pyr out there with titles up the wazoo but I bet if you asked their handlers they will tell you these dogs took some work from the beginning. So if you're interested, just start young, instill some awesome clicker training and behavior shaping young and you can win over most any dog.

As for dog aggression, most pyr are pretty easy going with their own crew from what I understand. I don't know doberman but if you stay on top of your dogs and supervise them and know their limits you should be okay, imo.

 

[Sit Stay]

Also, same sex aggression is NOT something to just wave off and think you can train it out. It's well known that Dobes, especially males, are known for being extremely same-sex aggressive and any breeder who tried to tell you differently is one I would run far far away from.

This was the first thing I thought of! Please don't wave off good, well-known information from a good breeder. Odds are they are much more familiar with the breed than you are and their suggestions and knowledge shouldn't be taken lightly.

 

[JennSLK]

I dont know of any good dobe breeders who would sell a male to a home who allready had a male of any breed neutered or not, unless the owners had extensive breed experiance.

I agree though the breeder sounds like a good breeder, crapy trainer. If you get a good puppy class you should be fine.

 

[Renee750il]

LGDs ARE different. No, they aren't the "OH, OH, WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO???" types, and it is a cooperative relationship more than a "Me Owner, You Dog" Tarzan/Jane sort of thing.

Barb, one of our mods, has a wonderful Pyr from an excellent breeder and he's about as good as they get. You should talk to Barb.

Definitely, not just "no," but "Oh, HELL no!" to a male LGD and a male Dobe.

And, truly, if you are a Doberman type personality, you may really not mesh will with one of the LGDs. They are more independent thinkers. I love my Filas. A Dobe would drive me nuts. It's a totally opposite mindset. Don't get me wrong, I've known some Dobes that I adored; they really are nice dogs, they just drive me nuts after awhile with the dependence.

 

[noludoru]

One thing that made me a bit nervous was the fact that our breeder told us we were gong to have huge problems getting a male Pyr to get along with another male dog (we fully intend on getting a male Doberman a few years down the line when I have a bit more time on my hands and when our daughter's older) because Pyrs are a very dominant breed. This is something that, if a Doberman breeder warned me about, I would waive off and feel that with early socialization around other dogs, neutering, and careful introduction of the two dogs, that I would be able to do it with no problems.

Two Males - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums

Male on Male Aggression - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums

Issues with dogs can often be trained out, but true aggression can't.

I'd suggest that if you're set on a male Dobe you get a female Pyr, or vice versa. Same sex aggression in Dobermans is so serious and prevalent that responsible Dobe rescues will not usually adopt out male dobes to homes with other male dogs.

Also, same sex aggression is NOT something to just wave off and think you can train it out. It's well known that Dobes, especially males, are known for being extremely same-sex aggressive and any breeder who tried to tell you differently is one I would run far far away from.

:hail::hail:

 

[lizzybeth727]

And, truly, if you are a Doberman type personality, you may really not mesh will with one of the LGDs.

This is what I was thinking too.

We have a lot of awesome dobe people on this forum who would be happy to give you advice on their breed and other similar breeds that might be closer to what you're looking for in your next dog.

 

[Aleron]

Issues with dogs can often be trained out, but true aggression can't.

I'd suggest that if you're set on a male Dobe you get a female Pyr, or vice versa. Same sex aggression in Dobermans is so serious and prevalent that responsible Dobe rescues will not usually adopt out male dobes to homes with other male dogs.

So true. I have quite a bit of experience with same sex aggression with GSDs. All the training and socialization in the world will not prevent it, if the dog is genetically wired to be same sex aggressive towards dogs they share their home with.

If you like Dobes so well, why not get a rescue female now and hold off getting a working bred one until you are more up to that sort of training? There is no shortage of nice Dobes out there in rescue.

 

[SizzleDog]

I've owned, trained and shown Dobermans for a decade now, and have worked very closely with my dobe breeder.

And only just now has she allowed me to have two males. Male-male dog aggression in Dobermans is SO serious, don't ever think you can train it out. I know people with Dobermans with more titles than you can imagine, and even they keep their males separated. It's not a question of IF, it's a question of WHEN two males will fight.

My oldest male is 8.5 years old, and he has had extensive training to accept other males. I've been working with him on this since he was 20 months old. And now, with a new male (who is still too young at 14 months to be aggressive towards other males) my old guy still must be watched closely around the youngster.

If you have never owned a dobe before, please please please don't think you can make a multiple-male household work. Please, please please.

 

[sallygoeswaltzing]

Well thank you everyone it's certainly given me something to think about in terms of whether to get a male or female. I'm certainly not expecting a fluffy white Doberman, I know that we're getting a very independent breed that are difficult to train. It's just hearing about them and then actually experiencing them, I want to make sure I know what we're in for and just how independent they are.

I was definitely appreciative of the breeder giving us the bad with the good, and no doubt respect her advice and expertise, but well as I said I wasn't sure what was her expertise in the breed and what was simply a result of her training methods (which appear to work well for her and the dogs she keeps, but are not ones I would personally use on my dogs).

Regardless of what we choose, we'll definitely be finding a good trainer in the area who runs group classes.

 

[Renee750il]

You don't "train" an LGD like you do a more behavior oriented dog. You work WITH them and you must respect and recognize their independence and non-linear thought processes. I think that's where a lot of good trainers fall short when dealing with these breeds. It really is more of a cooperative effort; you have to be willing to be flexible and have more of a give and take relationship. Granted, Filas are at the ragged edge of the spectrum, lol, but it does hold true to a great extent. Sure, you can get some of them to fit the mold you want, but neither you nor the dog will get the fullest measure from the relationship and you will never wholly belong to each other like you could.

 

[Romy]

You might look into other pyr breeders you could visit just to get a broader idea of the breed as a whole and different perspectives on training, even if you still plan to get a puppy from the first breeder.

Aleron's suggestion of getting a rescue female right now is a good one too. If you go with an adult their personality and energy level is pretty well fixed, and you can find an individual who fits your family's current needs.

ETA:

You don't "train" an LGD like you do a more behavior oriented dog. You work WITH them and you must respect and recognize their independence and non-linear thought processes. I think that's where a lot of good trainers fall short when dealing with these breeds. It really is more of a cooperative effort; you have to be willing to be flexible and have more of a give and take relationship. Granted, Filas are at the ragged edge of the spectrum, lol, but it does hold true to a great extent. Sure, you can get some of them to fit the mold you want, but neither you nor the dog will get the fullest measure from the relationship and you will never wholly belong to each other like you could.

This x100000! ^^ Living with an independent thinking dog (a lot of hounds fall into this category as well) is much more a partnership than an ownership. You need to prove to them that you're a leader worthy of following. That doesn't mean being "dominant" in the way Cesar Milan talks about, or any of that nonsense about not letting your dog eat a meal before you and not letting them walk in front of you. It means being kind, consistent, and earning their respect. A big part of that is controlling their resources. All good things in life come from you, and you're generous when they earn it.

My husband complains often that our borzoi are like having roommates, rather than dogs.

 

[SizzleDog]

Also remember that a lot of trainers don't have experience training dobes and/or LGDs. Training methods that work on goldens and shelties may not necessarily work on the breeds you're looking at.

 

[Mina]

I'm not quite sure what the problem is? Breeders often tend to whitewash over the more "interesting" aspects of their dogs; this one seems to be quite honest and forthright.

For the most part, you (your breeder) seem to have described the breed quite accurately!?! It sounds to me like you've found a good breeder - perhaps not a gr8 trainer, but a good breeder!

This is a gr8 breed, and I do heartily agree that, the Pyr is "not that bad". But it sounds like you probably won't be happy with "not that bad"? Integrants of a dog's temperament which are endearing to some, can be brutal to others.

It's just my opinion, but perhaps a total rethink would be in order? From the information you've supplied so far, there are (IMO) far better choices for you and your family! However, if you're still set on getting a Pyr, I'm sure you can easily find a breeder who will be more than happy to tell you exactly what you want to hear.

In any event, best of luck! opcorn: