Neuter or not?

[Babyblue5290]

I can't decide if we should just go ahead and get Talon neutered or not.

So here's the thing, we are getting x-rays on Talon very soon (most likely hips, but possibly spine or knee's depending on how the initial evaluation goes) were we may or may not have to sedate him, but I'm betting we will have to sedate knowing Talon. lol I was thinking that it might be beneficial to ask them to Neuter him at the same time (though not sure if that's possible?) so we don't have to put him under sedation a second time if we did ever want to neuter him. Talon is no longer a "puppy" were I would really worry about neutering too soon or anything, He's about 20 months old.

If it is possible to Neuter him at the same time, we aren't sure which way to go.

So the pro's to neutering that I could think of:

- No puppies. My sister's female is intact and I'm not sure if she is spaying her or when, so if we visit them we won't have to worry about accidents. Don't get me wrong, we are really careful with those two anyways. They are never left alone, they are crated on opposites sides of the house between 3 doors when no one is there, and Talon really isn't super interested in her anyways. BUT, there are a few others in the house so there's always that possibility of someone not listening to us (though it's very low). So neutering would take away that worry.
- Possibly decrease Talon's dog reactivity, but I doubt it. I'm pretty sure his reactivity isn't as much bravado driven as it is fear/over excitement based.
-Maybe decrease marking outside, but he's not bad to begin with so not worried about that really.
-*Technically* Talon is suppose to be neutered already to live at the apartment complex anyways, but the landlord doesn't care. Especially since fuzzy pants cover the boy bits lol

Cons to neutering:
-Well, not really sure for the most part.
- Recovery. Possibly adding pain to his current issues.
-Money. Money is tight right now, I don't have a job, but my boyfriend got a good paying job and we have enough to do everything with Care Credit, so we could make the payments. It's not a huge con IMO.


The main reason I'm not sure is because I remember ready some studies about neutering and medical issues, but I can't remember what it said. It may have been about early neutering. ?

The x-rays are for some serious medical concerns I have with Talon. I'm not sure what's causing it, but he is just getting worse even on crate rest. So we thought some swimming would help, as it's non-weight bearing and he loves swimming, so we added that and though we see improvement in muscle mass the underlying issues are still present. I'm not sure if it's a spinal issue, hip dysplasia, ligament, or neurological. We are going to go to the vet as soon as I can figure out which vet I want to go to. I don't want my normal vet, I've talked to a few other vets and I'm trying to decide between three. But I want to decide the neutering thing before I go in so I can focus on his other medical issues and not worrying about deciding it.

 

[krissy]

He would have to be under general anesthesia to be neutered, not just sedated. They could certainly do the x-rays while he's still out (and they'll probably appreciate having a completely cooperative patient).

Cons:
-Delayed closure of growth plates. At 20 months that's not an issue anymore as his growth plates should be totally closed.
-There are some newer studies coming out now that suggest the overall risk of cancers is higher in neutered/spayed dogs, and the earlier it is done the earlier they are likely to develop cancers.

Most sport dog owners don't neuter their males (or do so quite late... several years) and the newer recommendations for the females is to allow at least 2 heat cycles, preferably more... and spay around 4-5 when the risk of pyometra is still relatively low.

I have bounced back and forth, back and forth with Kili. As a vet and having had it drilled into my head that mammary cancer risk increases with each heat it's really hard to not have that lump in my throat. I ultimately have decided to leave Kili intact for now hoping that the risk of ALL cancers combined outweighs the risk of mammary cancer. Also, it depends on whether I can deal with an in heat female dog. That worries me too. I'll let her have her 2 seasons. If it's a real pain in the butt I'll spay her then. If it's not too bad I might let her have a few more.

 

[Linds]

I wouldn't, but no surprise there

- No puppies. My sister's female is intact and I'm not sure if she is spaying her or when, so if we visit them we won't have to worry about accidents. Don't get me wrong, we are really careful with those two anyways. They are never left alone, they are crated on opposites sides of the house between 3 doors when no one is there, and Talon really isn't super interested in her anyways. BUT, there are a few others in the house so there's always that possibility of someone not listening to us (though it's very low). So neutering would take away that worry.

You're taking way more precautions than I do with Didgie and Traveler. The only time I separate them/don't leave them alone together is when she's in heat. Otherwise I don't treat them any different than I would two altered dogs.

If it's a big worry you could always opt for a vasectomy that way you've gotten rid of the risk of puppies.

- Possibly decrease Talon's dog reactivity, but I doubt it. I'm pretty sure his reactivity isn't as much bravado driven as it is fear/over excitement based.
-Maybe decrease marking outside, but he's not bad to begin with so not worried about that really.

I would hesitate to alter and take away those added hormones with a male who's reactivity is fear based and I wouldn't expect it to help with it.

The thing I always go back to, once it's done it's permanent, you can't change your mind. You can always decide later that it's time but there is no undo button.

Just, honestly the reasons you are listing as pro's for neutering don't seem that....important (to me at least) and could possibly be con's in the case of the fear reactivity.

 

[Babyblue5290]

You're taking way more precautions than I do with Didgie and Traveler. The only time I separate them/don't leave them alone together is when she's in heat. Otherwise I don't treat them any different than I would two altered dogs.

If it's a big worry you could always opt for a vasectomy that way you've gotten rid of the risk of puppies.



I would hesitate to alter and take away those added hormones with a male who's reactivity is fear based and I wouldn't expect it to help with it.

The thing I always go back to, once it's done it's permanent, you can't change your mind. You can always decide later that it's time but there is no undo button.

Just, honestly the reasons you are listing as pro's for neutering don't seem that....important (to me at least) and could possibly be con's in the case of the fear reactivity.

Well these two dogs do not live together, we only visit a few times a year and so it's not a huge deal to crate them on opposite sides of the house during those few days we are there. lol

honestly, we initially said "nah, we will just neuter later if we want to" but than we started thinking about having to put him under for a second time. When Bear was spayed she had a horrible reaction to the anesthesia and they were barely able to revive her. So I think we are a bit gun-shy about possibly doing it twice.

And I agree, the pros to neutering aren't huge things for us either, which is kind of why it's so tough for us to decide to do it or not. I think the only one that is really keeping us from just not doing it right now is the anesthesia and fear of putting him under a second time if we do decide to neuter.

As for the vasectomy, I don't think I'd be up to arguing with people over it if it came down to it and than having to neuter him anyways. I'm thinking about the case were he'd have to be neutered to move somewhere, which we'd likely have to take his balls anyways. Plus it'd be a struggle finding a vet to do it. Though, I guess it wouldn't hurt to ask when we go in. Who knows, they may surprise me

 

[Linds]

And I agree, the pros to neutering aren't huge things for us either, which is kind of why it's so tough for us to decide to do it or not. I think the only one that is really keeping us from just not doing it right now is the anesthesia and fear of putting him under a second time if we do decide to neuter.

But, like Krissy said, you would only be sedating for the xrays and general anesthesia would be for a neuter. You could do general anesthesia and do both but you can't neuter with just sedation.

So, if you choose to neuter you would be doing more than if you had just done xrays.

At least, that's my understanding of it!

 

[Babyblue5290]

But, like Krissy said, you would only be sedating for the xrays and general anesthesia would be for a neuter. You could do general anesthesia and do both but you can't neuter with just sedation.

So, if you choose to neuter you would be doing more than if you had just done xrays.

At least, that's my understanding of it!

So for x-rays, even for really tough dogs, just sedation is almost always successful?

Even for us he doesn't like to be manipulated (not aggressive, just pushes against it), so for a stranger I'm pretty sure he'd struggle.

 

[*blackrose]

At this point, I really don't think you could go wrong either way. Do whatever will make you feel most comfortable. Both the pros and cons seem kind of...non serious? to me. But that is just me.

When an animal is sedated for non-surgical procedures, like x rays, they're typically given a drug cocktail that knocks them out flat. So even though he won't be on gas....he won't be responsive, either. No worry about him being bitey or acting out. Once the procedure is over they're reversed and within minutes they're typically up and walking.

 

[Beanie]

If I were in your situation, and I had the money, I would. Your landlord might not care now, but if suddenly somebody DOES care and it means you lose your apartment, that's kind of a big deal. I don't think a dog's testicles are worth getting evicted over.
Also, I could go either way on the reactivity issue. My personal experiences with Payton have shown me other dogs (and when I say dogs I mean male dogs, and mostly neutered ones too; bitches don't really care) want to pick fights with him because he has testicles. If Payton were reactive because he's afraid of other dogs, and I could potentially do something to make him less of a target (chop off his balls), I would.

But since you don't really have the money... I wouldn't. You're not stupid, he's not running around humping random bitches, and the reactivity is something you're doing your best to manage.
I would still be worried about the apartment rules though. Unless you have something in writing that says it's NOT a problem, at any given moment it can suddenly be a problem. But I wouldn't put yourself in financial duress because of it. You can save the financial duress for later if you get kicked out LOL.

 

[Beanie]

So for x-rays, even for really tough dogs, just sedation is almost always successful?

Even for us he doesn't like to be manipulated (not aggressive, just pushes against it), so for a stranger I'm pretty sure he'd struggle.

Payton was sedated, upside down getting his hips x-rayed, and he was alert enough to still bark at the boarding dogs who were barking. They had to take a few extra films than normal to make sure they got a good shot, but they didn't need to actually put him out.

Auggie and Georgie both came out of their x-rays exhausted, sleepy, snuggly... definitely out of it. Payton came bursting into the room going OKAY THAT WAS FUN CAN WE GO TO THE LAKE NOW??? Every dog is going to react differently - but even Payton didn't need any serious sedation to get it done.

 

[PWCorgi]

Frodo fights the heck out of sedation, and has never been completely out from just a sedative.

As far as the de-balling. I probably would, but I don't think it sounds urgent either way for him.

 

[Sparrow]

So for x-rays, even for really tough dogs, just sedation is almost always successful?

Even for us he doesn't like to be manipulated (not aggressive, just pushes against it), so for a stranger I'm pretty sure he'd struggle.

Zoe is a bit of a difficult patient (very nervous) and weighs 85lbs. Sedation has always been fine for her for x-rays.

I always used to think I would alter all my pets young, as that is "what you do," but now my plan for future dogs is to leave females intact for at least 2 years, and leave males intact for life or do a vasectomy.

If I were you, I would hold off, at least for now.

Edit: If I remember right, Zoe has been under two different sedatives, and one seemed to get her much deeper. I just know after x-rays she was still pretty lucid, but they were able to get them fine. When she had to have her leg manipulated to check for the CCL rupture, she was really unsteady on her feet and didn't even care when she had a run-in with another dog while I was trying to get her into the car. She also whined a lot coming out of it that time, but not after x-rays. I think it probably had pain meds in it.

 

[Saeleofu]

I wouldn't.

Sedation is much easier on a dog than general anesthesia. Now, if he needs to be anesthetized for a dental or something at some point? I'd consider it then (well, I'd consider a vasectomy). But not for something that sedation is enough for. I'd rather not risk anesthesia more than necessary.

As far as "hormone-driven" behavior, have you looked into zinc neutering? It
s juuuuust starting to become available. It decreases the hormone production by about half. That said, Logan was an AWFUL marker until he was just shy of 3 years old. It takes time and patience to get through marking, but it's worth it. He's still intact and always will be, despite me breaking down a few times during the worst of it and going "I'M GOING TO CHOP YOUR BALLS OFF THE END!" But I didn't, and he's perfect now. I can even take him to a dog show or pet store and he doesn't even think about marking now (he was awwwwfullllll at dog shows especially when I first got him. AWFUL.)

There are some studies coming out recently that link aggression, reactivity, and fearfulness to neutering, so I certainly wouldn't neuter a dog that falls into that category if I could help it. It's something that can be done at any time, but can never be undone. I'd err on the side of caution and not do it.

 

[elegy]

That's about the age I had Steve neutered, and I don't regret it. But he was peeing all over my house, so a little bit different scenario

He was injured and on crate rest anyway, so it seemed like a good time to do it. I had been planning to wait until he was two, but I didn't see the point in having to rest him twice. Also, he was cryptorchid.

 

[DJEtzel]

I wouldn't do it, personally.

I wish I could have kept Recon intact. He grew up and became the most confident, happy dog... then I had to neuter him and he is more fearful and soft again. And I have no doubt the two are related. You'd hate to make his reactivity/issues WORSE, with no real gain.

 

[iriskai]

My personal experiences with Payton have shown me other dogs (and when I say dogs I mean male dogs, and mostly neutered ones too; bitches don't really care) want to pick fights with him because he has testicles. If Payton were reactive because he's afraid of other dogs, and I could potentially do something to make him less of a target (chop off his balls), I would.

I see this with Ezra, my intact wallflower. He's a pacifist, completely non-aggressive and anything but pushy with new dogs. Neutered males are most often the ones that start the posturing crap with him, never had an issue with bitches or intact males, though.

 

[Elrohwen]

I see this with Ezra, my intact wallflower. He's a pacifist, completely non-aggressive and anything but pushy with new dogs. Neutered males are most often the ones that start the posturing crap with him, never had an issue with bitches or intact males, though.

Same. Watson has never had any inclination to fight, even when other dogs try to start things, though I will admit he stares them down and makes them uncomfortable. I know he just wants to play, but he has a horrible way of showing it. :lol-sign: Bitches never seem to care or notice, but neutered males often obsess about him and try to start things. Not all intact males like him either, but they don't seem drawn to him in the way that neutered males are.

 

[gilles]

if there is no serious medical reason for neutering then why would you do it???????? it does not seem to have a problem. there are no pros for neutering except if there is a valid medical or behavioral reason. so i would say forget it. As far as X rays i would go to a specialist first and get him examined and tested first before going into X rays,,, sometimes X rays will not help. only a specialized doctor with LOTS of experience will tell you... i would also ask a professional trainer with LOTS of experience they can sometimes pin point the problem just by experience.

 

[Babyblue5290]

I think I misunderstood when I talked to them, I thought it was sedation as in anesthesia, but now that I realize it's just sedation we've decided to wait on the neuter, if ever.

Thanks for all the good points!