nervous around strangers help needed

[AndrewF]

Hi all,

Jake and I are having a problem. Jake seems to be very nervous of strangers - complete with growling and hackles rising - and I don't have any ideas on how to put him at ease.

Firstly, I've got to point out that he's a very highly trainable dog. At 5.5 months old, he's got his basic commands down and he's even getting some of the harder command's like heeling. He comes when he's called, stays when he's told to stay and even has most of his commands down pat from a distance.

My wife runs a daycare and Jake is perfectly fine with the kids and while he does bark when parents come to pick up their children, he doesn't show aggression to them. However, when strangers come to the door, his hackles rise - or if we're walking and someone reaches down to pat him (against my warnings) the same thing occurs.

I realize he's not going to be running up to strangers for a tummy-rub anytime in this life - and I'm not really expecting that of him. However, I don't want him growling or snapping at people who think they can just pat a strange dog. I'm basically looking for a strategy to put him at ease with strange people or to just ignore them.

Would training classes help with that? or am I looking for a specific strategy to work on with him?

Just a bit of background here as well:
Jake's 5.5 months, fixed (as of last week) and we don't engage in rough play. He has a lot of puppy energy but he's not out of control at any time. He was 8 weeks old when we got him from the pet-store (and didn't even have to spend 1 night there as we got him the day he arrived there) so I don't think there was any abuse. He seems to be a one-family dog.

Andrew

 

[Renee750il]

Classes should help, Andrew. The more he's socialized the better he will be as well. Right now he's testing everything and will continue to do so as he grows up.

One of the things you can do that will help desensitize him is to distract him when he starts. Give him a command that he's already learned and praise him when he's responded properly. Maintaining a calm demeanor yourself will go a long way. One of the things he's learning is to differentiate between normal behaviour and a threat. I have dogs that have, by nature, a strong aversion to strangers and are bred to be able to act on their own when necessary, and it's absolutely imperative that they learn the difference between threatening and normal behaviours. I take them places and introduce them to people as much as possible.

 

[Doberluv]

Could you explain in detail what all you did with him from the time you brought him home till now, in the way of socialization? Where did you take him. What experiences did he have? How often? Was the exposure to people pleasant? Did anything frighten him? Do you know how old he was when taken from his littermates and mother? I know you got him from the pet store at 8 weeks and that he must have just arrived, or so they say. But how much time was inbetween leaving his littermates and getting to the pet store?

Because he came from a pet store, you can't really know where the dog came from...via a puppy mill or back yard breeder, where they don't care about breeding for good temperament or anything else when breeding? That's a possibility if you've socialized him properly....that his temperament is just not great. But I think you can work around it, at least to some degree.

Give us a little more background and then we can talk about desensatizing and conditioning and all that. I'm sure many knowlegeable people on here will give you ideas too.

 

[Doberluv]

Oh, lol...when I started writing, Renee hadn't posted yet. I'm slow, so hopefully it's not too redundant.

 

[AndrewF]

Thanks for replying Renee & Doberluv,

Not to sure where Jake was before the pet-store, but he arrived there the same day we picked him up. At the most, he spent 8 hours in the pet-store. His litter-mates were all there as well (a total of 6 puppies if I recall correctly) so that would have been the same day he was separated from his littermates.

One of his siblings we met not too long ago (actually, Jake recognized him at the vet's office and the two of them started playing like they'd never been separated). Jake's brother is an outgoing puppy who has the greatest temperment towards people in general. It seems that it's more Jake's individual personality than anything else.

As far as places I go with him etc..., I walk him at least once - if not twice a day through the neibourhood, through the park, over to the mall etc...
He's been exposed to strangers but it's not a daily occurance as some of our walks are later at night or earlier in the morning. He also seems fine around dogs and as I mentioned before he's fine with people he recognizes (day-care kids/parents) - it's when he doesn't know them and they try to engage him.

I should have pointed out in my original post that if strangers ignore him, he's generally okay. However, people tend to engage puppies without a second thought (for better or for worse).

I have a great deal of faith in Jake being able to reach a point where he's fine/ambivolent (sp?) with strangers. I can't brag enough about how good he is with my family, his training and his overall behavior (aside from one little couch incident - but that's another story ).

I will try distracting him with a command the next time the oppertunity presents itself though.

 

[Renee750il]

He sounds like a dream, Andrew. People are so daft about approaching a pup like it's a stuffed animal.

At least he's not like Kharma (and Buffy before her), who will sit and look angelic if she doesn't like someone. I know that look she has - out of the corner of her eye, kind of sideways - that means, "I'm going to enjoy scaring the bejeebers out of you in a second." She only does that at home. When we're out she just stares through the offensive person as if they don't exist or she'll turn and walk over to someone else to be petted. She gets her point across, lol!

 

[AndrewF]

Thanks Renee. I just got a mental image of that angenlic look lol.

 

[Doberluv]

Well Andrew, he does sound like a lovely puppy. Keep on socializing him, but when he sees someone, but from a distance and before he shows any signs of nervousness, ask him to look at you and give a treat when he does.

You can work on teaching him "watch me" at home...hold a treat up by your face and when he looks at you when you say "watch me" or "watch" or whatever you want, give the treat to him and praise him.

When you're out with him, try going places where he'll see people, but not up close. Get him use to seeing people from a distance and when he is calm and just beginning to see them, reward. If he acts nervous, worried, hackles up...etc, ignore him. Just try to get his attention on you before he reacts to what he sees. You can also ask for a sit and try to distract him by doing something else. But you've got to catch it before he starts freaking out. Once he does, any attention you give him may be construed as a payoff for that behavior....or a reinforcer.

Gradually, over time, decrease the distance between him and strangers. But only go the next step when he's completely comfortable with the last. Eventually, if he's OK being fairly close to one or two people, you can hand them a treat and ask them to give him one WHEN he is calm. Be careful not to reward or make a fuss over him when he's acting uncomfortable or nervous.

I know it's probably hard to find a place to walk where you're not running into people 5 feet away, but maybe if you take him to some large parking lot somewhere and park way far away from the store where he'll see people going in and walking around, but likely they'll be quite a distance away.

Puppies need lots and lots of socializing...every day and it's important to do it right from about 8 or 9 weeks. Their little personalities develop very quickly....by about 4 months so you have to almost saturate them by that time. But not in a way that is overwhelming or frightening. All the experiences should be pleasant and nothing frightening.

Anyway, I hope that helps somewhat, for now....until C.T. comes to the rescue.

 

[AndrewF]

Thanks for the idea Doberluv. I'll start doing that...along with Renee's suggestion.

Andrew

 

[Saje]

You can also have friends come over and get to know him. Ones he hasn't met before. The more he meets the easier it will get - as long as you make it positive for him.

 

[maui]

Hi Andrew,

We totally get it, what you are going through. Your puppy is really cute too huh? Our was, and it bugged me so much that everyone wanted to invade Rangers space to say hi. Especially from behind when I had my eye on a dog coming from the front. I was like... "Hello!" Anyway, Ranger (2 yr. now) didn't (doesn't) like being manhandled by all people. Only certain people.

Once we put a gentle leader on him, guess who petted him? Only dog people! Dog people who would say hello to me first, and ask, "Does your dog like pets?" I would say, "Yes, Ranger likes pets under his chin only!" If they were of worthy status in Ranger's mind, he would allow pets all over and I would say, "See, he likes you!" It was wonderful! We used the Gentle Leader for his pulling, but it worked wonders on non-dog people who thought Ranger was wearing a muzzle. tee hee hee. Wish I had bought it sooner. You have to do the proper gentle leader training, etc. or it might scare Jake even more.

We upped the socialization time out in the world, Strip Malls, etc. to 2 a day. (That was our goal, so we probably got to it about 8-10 times a week.) That way he thought it was normal to meet new people. It took a lot of work. Also, we threw treats on the ground a lot. I would warn people, "I'm going to throw cookies at your feet!"

Our trainer(s) taught us to throw cookies on the ground regardless of his actions. We ignored him a lot, but made the people "Rain Food" or "Rain Toys" This was because Ranger was scared. He had hackles and braks, but he wasn't feeling safe. Her theory was, if he is scared, then he needs to know he is safe regardless of his behavior. Kind of like, if you are scared of take offs in a plane, you're safe if you are crying, doing deep breathing exercises, or sitting still calm. The plane isn't less safe when you change your reaction. His feelings are not controlling the safety.

If he is barking people rain food anyway. You aren't giving the treat to him, btw - they just appear on the ground. We had these helpful people hold the cookies behind their back and drop them, as we were getting closer to them. Never handing him a cookie, that comes later. You want Jake to think, "Strangers are safe, and fun and when I meet a stranger, cookies (or toys) fall from the sky." Once he learns people are safe, you'll handle the barking if it's still there. I bet it won't be. And, since you won't hand him any cookies when he barks, you'll be fine. Our guys hackles are gone. Make sense?

We would praise if we went in for a bite. (of the food) Don't drop down and touch him! Just let him eat. We had to meet a lot of strangers, who were on board, but it was really fun. We would tell them he was in training and scared... and would they help. Usually people were eager. Maybe you could put a bucket outside the front door and fill it with Jakes favorite things?

I've also watched a trainer/friend who has a show dog (who just won great titles btw) train her puppy the same way.

 

[AndrewF]

Thanks for the reply Saje. I'll definately start doing that.

And thanks Maui for your reply. Ya, Jake's a cutie - such is the curse of Jake - a real people magnet (now that's irony ) - I've even had people offer to buy him (much to my unimpressed amazement). I'll give your idea a shot as well as the others mentioned....if there's one thing I've learned about Jake is being flexable in how I train him makes things work a lot better than doing things just one way.

Thanks again.

Andrew

 

[mrose_s]

i hate when people think they can pat any dog that comes along.
you could try going to a more neatral area. somewhere he cant claim as his own. and get people you know to come up. let them just sit around with you for a while until he calms and then pat him under his chin. without eyecontact.
because then he wont see soemones hand coming down on their head, youd flinch too hey???

 

[mrose_s]

PS, is he purebred?

 

[AndrewF]

Hi mrose,

Thanks for the reply. He's a mutt (heeler x lab). I know exactly what you're saying about a hand coming down unseen on a dogs head - and he doesn't like anyone doing that except family so for people who he will let pat him (the ladies at the pet-food store, my parents, etc...), I make sure they all allow him to sniff their hands and then scratch his chest or shoulder-blad instead of trying to go over-top to pat his head.

And just a little update, he's still quite nervous of people (obviously) but what I'm doing right now is when he see's a stranger, I have him sit, then 'walk with me' (on my right in a looser version of 'heel') and repeat this until he's focused on me instead of the distraction. If people (like the vet today) do approach, I give them a treat to offer Jake....so bit by bit, it's not quite as intimidating - but there's still a long road ahead.

Thanks again to everyone for the great suggestions - and I'm sure as Jake and I go along, I'll be employing them all.

Andrew

 

[Renee750il]

Just be very sure you want Jake to get the idea that it's okay to take food from strangers. I've never been keen on the idea, and I'm downright paranoid against it since Buffy was poisoned.

 

[AndrewF]

Good point Renee. So far I've only done this with the vet and a couple of neibours....(coincidently) people who I'd trust to give him a treat anyways, but I'll limit that one idea strictly to people who I do know & trust and will continue with the sitting and walking with me with others.

 

[3furkids]

I don't know if this has already been mentioned. I just skimmed the posts.

Phoebe is scared of strangers as well and will bark and growl if they are in her space.

I have been going to a class for 'special' dogs to help her.

First off, don't let people feed your dog, yet. Take him for a walk and as soon as he sees someone (could be a block away) give him a real yummy treat (chicken, leftovers...). You want him to associate strangers + good things...FOOD or toy (whichever works). When that is going okay, wait until they are a little closer and keep doing this until he can walk on by a stranger. When he is confident with this then hav people toss treats towards hi but NOT at him. Good idea if they don't give him any eye contact. Once that is going fine have them start offering treats in an open hand and make sure they are not bending over him.

This is what I did with Phoebe. Made a HUGE difference!! Takes a while though.

If your dog reacts turn and go the other way. Also be very aware of your dogs body language and help the situation BEFORE he fires. Your dogs welfare is always your first concern.

Oh, one more thing. I was so bad for tightening the leash when a stranger approached. Bad! Phoebe responds much better to a loose lead. I also use a Gentle Leader or Halti and it works well.

 

[dalvi_nilesh]

Hi

My problem is that my pet is about 1 year and 4 months (GSD), but he doesn’t bark on the stranger. He is very much friendly. I atleast want him to bark when the strangers comes near to my house fence or even if the door bell rings. He just starts playing around with the strangers that I don’t expect from him. He had been through basic obedience training and he is good and listens quite well the basic commands. He barks on the command, but don’t bark on the strangers. Even I tried to teach him to bark when the door bell rings, by giving some treat, but he does this only for treat. if without treat he is been asked to bark then he doesn’t. I even tried to teach him to bark when strangers arrive, but he do not do that. I had asked my trainer about this he too tried for the same but we are not getting any success towards it.

He is very playful and likes to play with everybody around even if the person he didn’t have seen till time. Is this nature of him will prove to be guard dog to us? Any suggestions/options that I can make him to bark on the strangers?

Thanks
-Nilesh

 

[Renee750il]

None of my German Shepherds have been big noisemakers. They preferred to go check out the person and decide whether or not they needed to be run off. Good German Shepherds are very bright when it comes to knowing who is a threat and who isn't. I wouldn't worry about it - he'll take good care of you if it's ever needed. Just let someone try to walk in the house when you're not home!