Need Help Potty Training a Six Month Old
- Thread starter Rythela
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Tucker..you're not saying weird things, and aren't hitting your dogs. I don't believe I've disagreed with you ever. I think you are very smart. Sheesh yourself.
Interesting. I could have sworn I'd gotten several eye rolls from you...
.I do not not like 'you', I just don't agree with the way this situation has been handled. Infact, I have nothing against you. I actually love your pittie
.~Tucker
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Your dog is still very young, and expecting him to be fully housetrained after only two months is not realistic. Many dogs take at least six months of constant supervision and training before they're reliable, and even more take longer than that.
Housebreaking is all about being consistant and supervising your puppy at all times. I know you said you watch him, but if he's having an accident and you find it later, then you haven't watched him enough. Try this, put the puppy on a leash in house, then wrap the other end around your wrist. Now your puppy is attached to you and he must go whever you go. No chance of him sneaking off and having accident where you can't see him.
Scolding him after the fact really has no impact on him. He's hiding in your arms because he's afraid, but he's not connecting that 'spanking' with what he did wrong. Dogs only connect any praise/scolding to what their doing right that second, not what they did a minute ago or five minutes ago.
Prevention is enough to housebreak your puppy, you don't even need to scold him to make your point. You said he won't soil his crate, GOOD, you can use that! Anytime you can't watch him, put him in his crate and you won't have any chance of a mistake.
If you catch him in the act of soiling the floor then just clap your hands, pick him up and whisk him outside to finish. Then roll up a newspaper and whack yourself over the head with it for failing to watch your puppy close enough.
In short, you need to prevent him from having an accident, then continue to praise him when he goes outside. There really is no shortcut to housebreaking. You gotta put in the time to see the results.
Housebreaking is all about being consistant and supervising your puppy at all times. I know you said you watch him, but if he's having an accident and you find it later, then you haven't watched him enough. Try this, put the puppy on a leash in house, then wrap the other end around your wrist. Now your puppy is attached to you and he must go whever you go. No chance of him sneaking off and having accident where you can't see him.
Scolding him after the fact really has no impact on him. He's hiding in your arms because he's afraid, but he's not connecting that 'spanking' with what he did wrong. Dogs only connect any praise/scolding to what their doing right that second, not what they did a minute ago or five minutes ago.
Prevention is enough to housebreak your puppy, you don't even need to scold him to make your point. You said he won't soil his crate, GOOD, you can use that! Anytime you can't watch him, put him in his crate and you won't have any chance of a mistake.
If you catch him in the act of soiling the floor then just clap your hands, pick him up and whisk him outside to finish. Then roll up a newspaper and whack yourself over the head with it for failing to watch your puppy close enough.
In short, you need to prevent him from having an accident, then continue to praise him when he goes outside. There really is no shortcut to housebreaking. You gotta put in the time to see the results.
Patience and consistency are the key. My dog is still having accidents at times. Rome was not built in a day. I do not agree with the spanking. It does not teach the dog, just frightens them. Older people do that still, my mom still does. she is not cruel, just doesn't know better. Have tried to educate her, but she still does it.
While you may not be causing pain, the swatting does produce fear. And I think a fearful dog is harder to house train than a relaxed one. We've been training our 4-month puppy for two months now, and while he's getting better, there are still accidents inside. I've noticed that when he's restless, whiney, or comes over to me and stares into my eyes, he usually has to go outside. Everyone says it takes a long time (months and months) for a dog to learn an effective way to signal you. Most of the time now we have to anticipate his needs and not wait for him to let us know--which takes tons of time and patience, but that's life with a puppy!
It's a real mistake to frighten, scold, intimidate your puppy in any way, shape or form. You'll ruin his trust in humans and your relationship with him. Swatting the newspaper at a table top in order to frighten him teaches him NOTHING except that humans are unpredictable and scary. Telling him "NO!" loudly or sternly teaches him NOTHING about potty training or anything else except that humans are unpredictable and scary.
Dogs do not think like humans in that they do not have morals, do not think in terms of "right or wrong." The do not have our value system. They do not think going potty inside is "wrong." Going potty on the floor is the same thing to them as going potty out in the woods. They're dogs, they do what dogs do until we train them. Training is about teaching, showing, patience, consistancy, trust. Your puppy MUST trust you in order to pay attention and try to figure out what you're trying to show him. He does not speak your language. He does not know human ways of acting in a house. You have to show him. Showing him takes time. His control of his little baby bladder and bowels takes maturity before he can even hold it for any length of time. The average time for reliable house breaking is about 6 months of age. My Doberman was almost a year old before he was reliable. I've had dogs who were 3 months old. It varies.
When you scold your puppy even when you do catch him in the act, the way a dog's mind works is that he does not know that you mean that going in the house was the no no. He can perceive it to mean that going at all is a no no and he will then try to hold it. He will tend not to go in front of you when you take him outside. He will hold it inside until he can't anymore and will tend to go behind furniture to hide it. You have to remember that dogs do not rationalize the way we do, do not have a sense of OUR right and wrong, do not think going potty on the ground is a wrong thing to do, do not distinguish between inside and outside for a long time. Once they go inside, it makes it more difficult because they will smell where they went before and think that this IS the spot they're suppose to go because that's what dogs do.
Another problem with scolding a pup for an accident is that he can perceive it to mean, "OK, I am not suppose to go here, but there are many other places I could go which might be OK." There's the back bedroom, the closet, behind the wing back chair. Your puppy, while he's learning is guessing. He does not know what you mean yet. He is guessing and not knowing what he's suppose to do. Since outside is only ONE place, it is much easier for him to stop guessing because that is ONE place where he gets praised and a treat when he goes there....just one place, one possibility. He doesn't have to find out which place anymore when he goes consistantly outside
How he gets from the guessing stage to the knowing stage is done by many, many repititions of being reinforced for behavior. The more he is reinforced with something he loves, like your praise and a treat, the more that behavior will be repeated. That is learing behavior. It is law. If he is reinforced every time he goes inside because going inside is easy, carpet is absorbant, (they like that) it's warm inside....every time he goes inside he is reinforced. It works to go inside. That behavior will tend to be repeated in the future. Now.....every time YOU do YOUR job and supervise him adequately to prevent him from going inside, everytime you get him outside and he goes and is praised lavishly and given a treat, that peeing/pooping outside will be reinforced. It works better for him to go outside. Going outside is much better than going inside because he gets what he LOVES. After many many repititions, he stops guessing because nothing good happens inside, but something very, very good happens when he goes outside. When he is physically able and when he makes that association, he will begin to hold it in order to get a chance to get that praise and treat.....to be taken outside.
Scolding when he's going inside is not necessary at all to train him. It has severely detrimental side effects. If you catch him in the act, just take him out quickly and show him where you want him to go and clean up with Natures Miracle. (Pet stores)
If he has an accident and you really want to use a newspaper, roll it up and hit yourself over the head for not taking him out often enough, for not supervising him well enough.
If you are using a crate, and you need to go out of th room for 1 minute, pop him into the crate. If you cannot watch him for 2 minutes if you're making a phone call or using the bathroom, pop him in his crate. Do not trust that he will not go in the house. You MUST prevent anymore accidents. Take him out often, more often than you think you might need to take him.
Make a log of when he eats, drinks, plays, naps, takes walks, pees, poops. Get so you see a pattern to when he goes in relationship to those things so you have an idea of when it is more likely that he'll have to go.
Normally when you teach a dog something, you praise, treat while he's doing the behavior, not before, not after. However, with potty training, if you praise while he's going, he may get excited and stop mid stream, so you wait until he JUST finishes and you throw him a party, a special treat (hot dog piece, cheese, meat) and loads of happy praise. While he's going, (not before, not after) in a low key, calm voice give him a cue word to begin to attach to this behavior, like, "go pee pee." He can learn eventually after a long time to go on command IF he needs to at all.
With anything you teach your puppy, from sit, down, stay, come, you do not want to make it scary or not fun. Training needs to be fun and rewarding and is VERY fun for both dog and owner when done right....with positive reinforcement and very, very little, if any corrections or aversives. There are wonderful techniques which you can learn. Your puppy can learn better and be happier. Your bond with him can be phenomenal. But if you start off with even mild aversives, intimidation, fear, coercion, you can ruin a dog forever. Remember, this is a baby and the only way for a dog to learn is by reinforcement which is a reward that HE LOVES, not that you think he might love. It has to cause behavior to be repeated in order to be called a reinforcement. Behavior which you don't want, you need to prevent reinforcement for it and it will go away. If puppy is getting into a no no, distract him, give him an alternative and praise and/or treat. Build on behavior you do like by reinforcing it. He will take on those desireable behaviors because they pay off. He will give up the undesireable behaviors if you prevent him from getting a payoff. Your job is to figure out what payoff is he getting from this. You have to watch, think and ask yourself. Sometimes it's attention from a person. Sometimes it's self rewarding like getting into something fun like garbage. Or jumping up on the couter top. If it works for him...if he gets food for doing that behavior, it WILL BE REPEATED. Not because he's bad or immoral but because that is how a dog's mind works. They're hunters, scavengers.....opportunists. They do what works. How else would they have survived for 15,000 years and evolved to be so compatible with humans? They learned how to get along and benefit from being with humans. They're tame and have a bond with humans. BUT, they do not come automatically knowing how to get along in a household....know all the rules and ways. We have to show them. And it takes time.
I recommend you read the book, Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. It will change everything about how you look at your dog and will show you how to train him in the most effective way, based on the science of learning. I cannot recommend that book enough.
I hope you take an interest in learning how to teach your puppy in a fair, happy and effective way and that you and your pup have a wonderful bond like I do with my four dogs.
Happy training!
Dogs do not think like humans in that they do not have morals, do not think in terms of "right or wrong." The do not have our value system. They do not think going potty inside is "wrong." Going potty on the floor is the same thing to them as going potty out in the woods. They're dogs, they do what dogs do until we train them. Training is about teaching, showing, patience, consistancy, trust. Your puppy MUST trust you in order to pay attention and try to figure out what you're trying to show him. He does not speak your language. He does not know human ways of acting in a house. You have to show him. Showing him takes time. His control of his little baby bladder and bowels takes maturity before he can even hold it for any length of time. The average time for reliable house breaking is about 6 months of age. My Doberman was almost a year old before he was reliable. I've had dogs who were 3 months old. It varies.
When you scold your puppy even when you do catch him in the act, the way a dog's mind works is that he does not know that you mean that going in the house was the no no. He can perceive it to mean that going at all is a no no and he will then try to hold it. He will tend not to go in front of you when you take him outside. He will hold it inside until he can't anymore and will tend to go behind furniture to hide it. You have to remember that dogs do not rationalize the way we do, do not have a sense of OUR right and wrong, do not think going potty on the ground is a wrong thing to do, do not distinguish between inside and outside for a long time. Once they go inside, it makes it more difficult because they will smell where they went before and think that this IS the spot they're suppose to go because that's what dogs do.
Another problem with scolding a pup for an accident is that he can perceive it to mean, "OK, I am not suppose to go here, but there are many other places I could go which might be OK." There's the back bedroom, the closet, behind the wing back chair. Your puppy, while he's learning is guessing. He does not know what you mean yet. He is guessing and not knowing what he's suppose to do. Since outside is only ONE place, it is much easier for him to stop guessing because that is ONE place where he gets praised and a treat when he goes there....just one place, one possibility. He doesn't have to find out which place anymore when he goes consistantly outside
How he gets from the guessing stage to the knowing stage is done by many, many repititions of being reinforced for behavior. The more he is reinforced with something he loves, like your praise and a treat, the more that behavior will be repeated. That is learing behavior. It is law. If he is reinforced every time he goes inside because going inside is easy, carpet is absorbant, (they like that) it's warm inside....every time he goes inside he is reinforced. It works to go inside. That behavior will tend to be repeated in the future. Now.....every time YOU do YOUR job and supervise him adequately to prevent him from going inside, everytime you get him outside and he goes and is praised lavishly and given a treat, that peeing/pooping outside will be reinforced. It works better for him to go outside. Going outside is much better than going inside because he gets what he LOVES. After many many repititions, he stops guessing because nothing good happens inside, but something very, very good happens when he goes outside. When he is physically able and when he makes that association, he will begin to hold it in order to get a chance to get that praise and treat.....to be taken outside.
Scolding when he's going inside is not necessary at all to train him. It has severely detrimental side effects. If you catch him in the act, just take him out quickly and show him where you want him to go and clean up with Natures Miracle. (Pet stores)
If he has an accident and you really want to use a newspaper, roll it up and hit yourself over the head for not taking him out often enough, for not supervising him well enough.
If you are using a crate, and you need to go out of th room for 1 minute, pop him into the crate. If you cannot watch him for 2 minutes if you're making a phone call or using the bathroom, pop him in his crate. Do not trust that he will not go in the house. You MUST prevent anymore accidents. Take him out often, more often than you think you might need to take him.
Make a log of when he eats, drinks, plays, naps, takes walks, pees, poops. Get so you see a pattern to when he goes in relationship to those things so you have an idea of when it is more likely that he'll have to go.
Normally when you teach a dog something, you praise, treat while he's doing the behavior, not before, not after. However, with potty training, if you praise while he's going, he may get excited and stop mid stream, so you wait until he JUST finishes and you throw him a party, a special treat (hot dog piece, cheese, meat) and loads of happy praise. While he's going, (not before, not after) in a low key, calm voice give him a cue word to begin to attach to this behavior, like, "go pee pee." He can learn eventually after a long time to go on command IF he needs to at all.
With anything you teach your puppy, from sit, down, stay, come, you do not want to make it scary or not fun. Training needs to be fun and rewarding and is VERY fun for both dog and owner when done right....with positive reinforcement and very, very little, if any corrections or aversives. There are wonderful techniques which you can learn. Your puppy can learn better and be happier. Your bond with him can be phenomenal. But if you start off with even mild aversives, intimidation, fear, coercion, you can ruin a dog forever. Remember, this is a baby and the only way for a dog to learn is by reinforcement which is a reward that HE LOVES, not that you think he might love. It has to cause behavior to be repeated in order to be called a reinforcement. Behavior which you don't want, you need to prevent reinforcement for it and it will go away. If puppy is getting into a no no, distract him, give him an alternative and praise and/or treat. Build on behavior you do like by reinforcing it. He will take on those desireable behaviors because they pay off. He will give up the undesireable behaviors if you prevent him from getting a payoff. Your job is to figure out what payoff is he getting from this. You have to watch, think and ask yourself. Sometimes it's attention from a person. Sometimes it's self rewarding like getting into something fun like garbage. Or jumping up on the couter top. If it works for him...if he gets food for doing that behavior, it WILL BE REPEATED. Not because he's bad or immoral but because that is how a dog's mind works. They're hunters, scavengers.....opportunists. They do what works. How else would they have survived for 15,000 years and evolved to be so compatible with humans? They learned how to get along and benefit from being with humans. They're tame and have a bond with humans. BUT, they do not come automatically knowing how to get along in a household....know all the rules and ways. We have to show them. And it takes time.
I recommend you read the book, Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. It will change everything about how you look at your dog and will show you how to train him in the most effective way, based on the science of learning. I cannot recommend that book enough.
I hope you take an interest in learning how to teach your puppy in a fair, happy and effective way and that you and your pup have a wonderful bond like I do with my four dogs.
Happy training!
Thanks Momof2pups. It's a terribly long post but I just wanted to cover everything...not just the potty training but to try and bring some understanding of dogs from what I've researched for a long time.
One other little thing I forgot to mention or reiterate is that research indicates that dogs, when they seem to be "getting it," are not having an "ah-ha" moment....they're not logically going through it all in their minds like, "Oh! Now I get it. She doesn't want me to pee inside because it ruins the carpet." No....they are simply repeating a behavior which pays off better for them. (they're innocently selfish and do what works for them)
Based on the operant conditioning principle, the way ALL mammals learn, the way any organism with a brain learns.... it goes like this: You do this and that happens. You do this other thing and that other thing happens. Humans know why and can analyze, rationalize etc. Dogs are more simple than that. The puppy goes outside and something good happens. He is prevented from going inside with proper supervision and so that behavior has no payoff because it doesn't even have a chance to happen. So, going outside becomes the behavior of choice, not because he knows that humans don't like getting their house messed up, but because is simply works better for them to go outside. Then it becomes a learned habit and behavior.
People need to stop projecting human ways of thinking, morals, our value system on dogs. Dogs don't care about wrecking carpet. They have no concept at all that our stuff is valuable to us and wrecking it is an immoral thing to do. Aversives do not tell the dog what it is you do want. Sure, harshness, stern punishment can halt a behavior. But the damaging side effects are not worth the value of stopping the behavior because there are other ways to stop unwanted behavior.....in the positive reinforcement approach.
This Walt Disney way of perceiving dogs, like they're so smart, understand English, know what we want all the time.....although it makes a good story, it's really doing dogs a disservice because it causes dogs to be mistreated since they're not understanding us like Lassie does. People place too high of expectations on dogs. They're animals, not humans. They're smart, but they're not that smart. I'm mentioning this in a general way. You may not have been too harsh but just want to mention it in a general way.
One other little thing I forgot to mention or reiterate is that research indicates that dogs, when they seem to be "getting it," are not having an "ah-ha" moment....they're not logically going through it all in their minds like, "Oh! Now I get it. She doesn't want me to pee inside because it ruins the carpet." No....they are simply repeating a behavior which pays off better for them. (they're innocently selfish and do what works for them)
Based on the operant conditioning principle, the way ALL mammals learn, the way any organism with a brain learns.... it goes like this: You do this and that happens. You do this other thing and that other thing happens. Humans know why and can analyze, rationalize etc. Dogs are more simple than that. The puppy goes outside and something good happens. He is prevented from going inside with proper supervision and so that behavior has no payoff because it doesn't even have a chance to happen. So, going outside becomes the behavior of choice, not because he knows that humans don't like getting their house messed up, but because is simply works better for them to go outside. Then it becomes a learned habit and behavior.
People need to stop projecting human ways of thinking, morals, our value system on dogs. Dogs don't care about wrecking carpet. They have no concept at all that our stuff is valuable to us and wrecking it is an immoral thing to do. Aversives do not tell the dog what it is you do want. Sure, harshness, stern punishment can halt a behavior. But the damaging side effects are not worth the value of stopping the behavior because there are other ways to stop unwanted behavior.....in the positive reinforcement approach.
This Walt Disney way of perceiving dogs, like they're so smart, understand English, know what we want all the time.....although it makes a good story, it's really doing dogs a disservice because it causes dogs to be mistreated since they're not understanding us like Lassie does. People place too high of expectations on dogs. They're animals, not humans. They're smart, but they're not that smart. I'm mentioning this in a general way. You may not have been too harsh but just want to mention it in a general way.
