Nancy Grace has gone too far

[pancho]

I raised pit bulls many years ago, long before the use of computers became so common. At that time I knew many other breeders and owners. Most were real good examples of dog owners. Recently, in the last year I have renewed my interest in pit bulls. Now with a computer in most households there is a lot of info about any breed available on the net. Many web sites and forums available to anyone interested in any breed.

I became a member of several dog forums, mostly those about pit bulls. To my surprise I found the normal pit bull owner I used to know and be a member of has been replaced. They have been replaced by one of either two extremes. The normal owner is nowhere to be found.

On one extreme we now have those who believe the pit bull is a house dog, lap dog, that should have no dog aggression. The other extreme is those who think we should make dog fighting legal again. Neither side has room for the normal pit bull owner. Everyone is forced to choose which extreme they will back. If they refuse to choose they are soon forced out of any discussion related to the breed. Those forced out soon loose their interest in the breed but hold a grudge against both sides that have excluded them. These people will be the ones who will vote for a ban on the breed. These people are the ones who will decide the breed they once knew, owned, and were very proud of has little place in todays world.

To those who belong to either extremes just a little reminder.
The next time you berate a dog owner of anyone interested in your breed just because they do not conform to your idea you are just forcing them to make a choice you will not really enjoy.
The nest time you make fun of a dog owners dog that does not conform to your idea of what the breed should look like you are forcing that person to make a choice you may not enjoy.
The next time you state on an open forum how dangerous you and your dog are you are forcing others to make a decision about your breed you will not enjoy.
The next time you state on an open forum how you will do bodily damage to another person you are forcing others to make a decision about the dog you own.
The next time you start an argument on how the breed should be handeled and bred and condem all others that do not agree you are loosing many of those who have supported the breed.

All dog breeds need the normal dog owners. Those who take the best care of their dogs possible. Those who provide homes to the many millions of dogs now available. Those who develop an interest in one breed of dogs and look for info about their interest. Those who will be voting whether we ban a dog breed. Those who will be raising the dog owners of tomorrow.
We need more normal dog owners and less dog extremists.

 

[Amstaffer]

Recently a dog park opened next to my home and a few Pit Bulls visit the park several times a week. I have noticed that when a Pit Bull heads for the fenced in area with it's owner ,where the dogs run free, all the owners in that enclosed area ( including yours truly)


I see all the posts here defending the PB,.....All the lectures and explanations by PB owners are not going to change that, in my opinion. The idea of penalizing the owner to solve this problem is not really a viable solution in my opinion, since in the event of an attack, the damage is already done.

Not to far from where I live we have teenage gangs, and the dog that many of them own are Pit Bulls. The police tell me that they are chosen because of the tough guy image that the dog has, plus they know that police will be less inclined to raid their homes to make a search or a drug bust, with 2 of these dogs in the yard. This just helps to solidify people's concerns about this breed in the community.

.

I will repost a question I posted earlier and ironically no one commented on or answered/disputed.
Why can you go to a dog show where there are up to 50 Pit Bulls (usually intact males) together and they are surrounded by other dogs, children, strangers poking and pulling them and yet no one ever gets bit? I will tell you why....because the dogs there are well bred and raised. If they are more dangerous and born killers as you imply this couldn't possiblly happen! .
For those of you who say the Pit Bull is inheritantly a killer please explain how dog shows can happen safely and how you ideas who be fair for many many wondeful dogs who are just as sweet and safe as the dog at your feet?

You have to punish the owners and not the breed, it is the only logical answer because they are the variable that makes the difference.

On gangbangers picking the pit bull, shows how stupid they are. If they really wanted guard dogs to keep cops out they would use bigger dogs like Rotties who are actually Guard dogs

 

[pancho]

I will repost a question I posted earlier and ironically no one commented on or answered/disputed.
Why can you go to a dog show where there are up to 50 Pit Bulls (usually intact males) together and they are surrounded by other dogs, children, strangers poking and pulling them and yet no one ever gets bit? I will tell you why....because the dogs there are well bred and raised. If they are more dangerous and born killers as you imply this couldn't possiblly happen! .
For those of you who say the Pit Bull is inheritantly a killer please explain how dog shows can happen safely and how you ideas who be fair for many many wondeful dogs who are just as sweet and safe as the dog at your feet?

You have to punish the owners and not the breed, it is the only logical answer because they are the variable that makes the difference.

On gangbangers picking the pit bull, shows how stupid they are. If they really wanted guard dogs to keep cops out they would use bigger dogs like Rotties who are actually Guard dogs

I will try to answer the question about the dog shows.
Usually those who choose to show their dog will work with the dog more than others and will be in more control of their dog. If the dog is shown very many times they will be used to the crowd and the other dogs. The dogs are not necessarily better bred, just handeled, trained, and controlled.
The crowd around the dog show are better informed about dogs also. Those interested in dogs will be at the dog show, those with no interest in dogs would have no reason to be there.
Many of the people showing dogs do not allow everyone with an interest in their dog to touch and examine their dog. The chance of disease is too great for that.
There is also a difference in the shows. Some will remove aggressive dogs. Some will encourage DA dogs. If the dogs are encouraged to be aggressive they will be that way. There is a lot of difference in an ADBA show and an UKC show. One will discourage DA and the other will encourage DA.

 

[GSDluver4lyfe]

I will try to answer the question about the dog shows.
Usually those who choose to show their dog will work with the dog more than others and will be in more control of their dog. If the dog is shown very many times they will be used to the crowd and the other dogs. The dogs are not necessarily better bred, just handeled, trained, and controlled.
The crowd around the dog show are better informed about dogs also. Those interested in dogs will be at the dog show, those with no interest in dogs would have no reason to be there.
Many of the people showing dogs do not allow everyone with an interest in their dog to touch and examine their dog. The chance of disease is too great for that.
There is also a difference in the shows. Some will remove aggressive dogs. Some will encourage DA dogs. If the dogs are encouraged to be aggressive they will be that way. There is a lot of difference in an ADBA show and an UKC show. One will discourage DA and the other will encourage DA.

So then it IS the owners fault for not properly socializing the dogs.

 

[GSDluver4lyfe]

I was in a Vet Emergency hospital some months ago and saw a small dog that had it's leg almost amputated by a neighbors pit bull, that was brought to the emergency room. A long conversation followed between the pet owners in the waiting room and several people were talking about the way a Pit Bull will clamp onto it's victim and won't let go no matter what. My son in law who was a vet technician for a year or so, said that he had seen that happen twice to dog's that were brought to his office.

Recently a dog park opened next to my home and a few Pit Bulls visit the park several times a week. I have noticed that when a Pit Bull heads for the fenced in area with it's owner ,where the dogs run free, all the owners in that enclosed area ( including yours truly), head for the exit gate. Maybe this is silly, maybe it's biased, or maybe it's a prudent decision, but frankly I am not taking a chance with my dog's or my own safety and the other people feel the same way. One of the the PB that visit this area that is about a year old has bitten two different dogs on their ears requiring trips to the vet, despite the fact that the owners asked the person to leash their PB and not allow it in the fenced in area while they were in there.


I see all the posts here defending the PB, and I also would be concerned if I owned a good dog and it was banned for some reason, but the point of my post is that some people have what they feel are legitmate fears about these dogs due to things that they have experienced or heard about and people should understand that too. All the lectures and explanations by PB owners are not going to change that, in my opinion. The idea of penalizing the owner to solve this problem is not really a viable solution in my opinion, since in the event of an attack, the damage is already done.

Not to far from where I live we have teenage gangs, and the dog that many of them own are Pit Bulls. The police tell me that they are chosen because of the tough guy image that the dog has, plus they know that police will be less inclined to raid their homes to make a search or a drug bust, with 2 of these dogs in the yard. This just helps to solidify people's concerns about this breed in the community.

And to tell someone that they Are not "very mature" after they saw their own dog mauled and killed by another dog right in front of them ( by a breed that is know to be dog aggressive) , shows a total lack of compassion.

Its called game. Pitbulls were BRED for gameness (which is petty similar to fight drive, IMO). Pitbulls have high pain tolerance and are hard-headed, but where bred for that. PEOPLE JUST LIKE YOU bred that into the dogs and know we must deal with the consequenses.

Ryots father has TONS of fight drive. You can beat the shyt out of him and he wont stop. I've seen this myself actually. I was at my trainer's house (who is a close friend of the family and I always stay over her house and stuff) and someone broke in and he broke out the cage went straight for the guy and DID NOT stop. The guy had a stick or something (coldnt really see) and kept beating him, and he wouldnt stop. He just got madder and madder and until the police came the situation was under control he kept fighting. And finally when he was called of he was in terrible shape. He was bleeding, was limping, and could barely walk. but you wouldnt have known he was in pain from the way he was fighting.

Pitbulls are NOT the only breed with game but some breeds have different motivations for fighting. For example GSD's fight PEOPLE, whereas pits fight mostly dogs. If it was me I would fear a dog who had no problem fight a PERSON than a dog who is DOG agressive NOT human agressive. GSD's, Rotties, Dobes, LGD's, ect have NO problem fighting a human being but I find that alot of pitbulls do have a problem with it.

I really cant stand people who go around saying comments like "I hate pitbulls" and blah blah blah. But you dont see me saying "I HATE YOU". Only children throw temper-tantrums like that.

 

[Boemy]

So then it IS the owners fault for not properly socializing the dogs.

Dog aggression can't always be socialized away. A puppy who has been socialized thoroughly and positively with dogs can still grow up to be dog aggressive due to genetics. It may be possible to make such a dog comfortable around other dogs, train it not to react, and basically teach it that fighting is not acceptable to you, but that same dog might not be able to be trusted in a less controlled/more stimulating situation like a dog park. With show pit bulls, I would guess that a lot of training goes into them and also that their dog aggression tends to be bred out, just as herding instincts are often (unintentionally) bred out of show herding breeds in favor of appearance.

 

[Bobsk8]

What I can't understand is when you watch a dog show or listen to people talking about breeds they say. " Oh so and so dog was bred for hearding so it likes to take on that behavior with other animals", or " this breed was bred for hunting rodents so it behaves in this way ", or this breed was bred to hunt so it howls when it sees prey", even though most of these does have never done any of this in their entire lives. Therefore most people agree that it is the genetics that causes these particular behaviors.

Now we come to dog breeds that were trained to be D/A during their developement , and all of a sudden, I hear a few people stating that "genetics has absolutely nothing to do with the dog's behavior, it's entirely bad owners that are responsible". I think that is ridiculous to say on one hand that genetics plays a big role, but when it comes to this particular breed, it has nothing to do with anything .......

 

[pancho]

So then it IS the owners fault for not properly socializing the dogs.

The pit bull is a aggressive breed. Some are more aggressive than others just like any other breed. This aggressiveness can be controlled, encouraged, or left for the dog to choose.

Pit bulls should not be allowed to run free with other pit bulls or any other breed. The possibility for an accident to happen is just too great.

The UKC believes the owner or handeler should always be in control of the dog. The owner or handeler can control any aggression their dog may have. If they cannot handle the dog they should not be in the show ring. An aggressive dog is nearly impossible to judge. The UKC judge will usually feel of the dog to judge the quality.
The ADBA believes the pit bull is an aggressive dog and should act like one. The owner or handeler can control the dog but encourages aggressiveness as the judge will usually give extra points to an aggressive dog. Sometimes the inexperienced owner or handeler will not be able to handle the dog. ADBA judges usually go by looks only and rarely touch the dogs.


If left to the dog to make the choice most pit bulls will show aggressiveness. This is the same with many breeds. It can be controlled.
Even back in the days when dog fighting was legal not all fighting dogs were aggressive. The owner or handeler had to control and handle the dog. The dog had to be transported and be around other people and other dogs. If you had a very aggressive dog he would soon tire out even before he was matched. He would win very few fights.

Many people will have aggressive dogs. Many people will tell you they cannot stop the dog from acting aggressive. They may be right, but others can take the dog and with the proper work and training make a dog that can be controlled.

So you are mostly right. The owner is at fault if aggressiveness is a problem with their dog. They should be able to control their dog. Many do not think it is a problem. They can control the dog even when it is aggressive.
The problem is when the owner cannot control the dog.

Just my personal opinion, the pit bull should never be brought to a dog park and let loose to play with other dogs. But then I don't think any breed should be allowed to either.

 

[pancho]

What I can't understand is when you watch a dog show or listen to people talking about breeds they say. " Oh so and so dog was bred for hearding so it likes to take on that behavior with other animals", or " this breed was bred for hunting rodents so it behaves in this way ", or this breed was bred to hunt so it howls when it sees prey", even though most of these does have never done any of this in their entire lives. Therefore most people agree that it is the genetics that causes these particular behaviors.

Now we come to dog breeds that were trained to be D/A during their developement , and all of a sudden, I hear a few people stating that "genetics has absolutely nothing to do with the dog's behavior, it's entirely bad owners that are responsible". I think that is ridiculous to say on one hand that genetics plays a big role, but when it comes to this particular breed, it has nothing to do with anything .......

Most dog shows do not allow dogs to do the job they were bred for in the show ring. A herding dog does not herd while in the show ring. A hunting dog does not hunt while in the show ring. A ratter does not hunt rats while in the show ring.
There are contest for most of this outside of the show ring.
Same with the dog aggressive breeds. They should not be aggressive in the show ring.
The show dog is usually judged for the right conformation to allow it to do the job it was bred for. That does not mean that dog is capable of doing that job. Just as the DA dog may not be able to do the job they were originally bred for. Acting aggressive and being able to do the job is two different things.

 

[Bobsk8]

Most dog shows do not allow dogs to do the job they were bred for in the show ring. A herding dog does not herd while in the show ring. A hunting dog does not hunt while in the show ring. A ratter does not hunt rats while in the show ring.
There are contest for most of this outside of the show ring.
Same with the dog aggressive breeds. They should not be aggressive in the show ring.
The show dog is usually judged for the right conformation to allow it to do the job it was bred for. That does not mean that dog is capable of doing that job. Just as the DA dog may not be able to do the job they were originally bred for. Acting aggressive and being able to do the job is two different things.

The point that I was trying to make didn't have anything to do with what happens in the show ring, but more the general disposition and likes and dislikes of the dog on a day to day basis.

 

[Bahamutt99]

Dog aggression can't always be socialized away.

....

With show pit bulls, I would guess that a lot of training goes into them and also that their dog aggression tends to be bred out...

Dog aggression can't necessarily be socialized away, but it can be controlled. And socialization does seem to help in dogs that are not full-on dog-aggro. As with the show dogs, many of them are hot. But they know that they'll get their little butts handed to them by their owners if they start acting like idiots. If you watch the dogs that are shown in both UKC and ADBA, many times you'll see that in the UKC ring, they've got their game faces on, behaving like they've been trained to behave. But in the ADBA ring -- which allows dogs to act naturally -- that same dog knows that the restrictions don't apply, so they may mouth off, and act like retards because they're allowed to.

 

[Amstaffer]

I think who (dog or human) you are is 25% genetics and 75% life experience. Your are born with tendencies and your life experiences "train" you how to respond to impulses.

With both of my dogs they have a very strong draw to interact with other dogs. They get very excited when they see other dogs. Like my sisters Aussies get when they see the cattle move. However they NEVER act aggressively, Sal has even been bitten and not taken it seriously.

I think they are hot wired to be draw to dogs but I have socialized them and trained them that aggression is not tolerated.

 

[mojozen]

I've read this entire thread (save for the articles that were posted) and here are my thoughts - agree or disagree it doesn't much matter in the end.

I own a 5 year old pit-something or other mix. I adopted him as an adult from a vet tech program near where I live. The reasons I adopted him were simple: he is of a small size (his back is below my knee), he has a sweet disposition towards humans, he had a reputation at the school for being quiet, and he is a sturdy little animal.

I DID NOT adopt him to be dog friendly - although he is friendly towards other dogs... save for GSDs (we were attacked by one once - not just he but me too - and he's had a hate on for them since). I knew from the research I had done for the three months before I could bring him home that he would not be a candidate for a dog park. I knew that he'd have to be walked on leash always, and the only places he could be off leash is in a fenced in yard, or on my dad's farm back in Michigan.

I know that by doing my research before I brought him home, and by continuing to do the research that I do I am one of those sainted "responsible" dog owners. There are still a lot of things I am working on with my dog - like no jumping on people - but I will honestly say that my Mojo has been the best dog I have ever had. And everyone in my workplace knows that I will stand to hear no bad words against him or his fellow bully breeds without a fight.

My personal thoughts on the breeds are as follows:

* I believe that any dog that shows unfixable human aggression should be put to sleep. Perhaps some human aggression can be fixed - i am neither a dog trainer or a dog behaviorist to know definatively - but any human aggression should be dealt with immediately after the first snap or bite that occurs which is "unprovoked." Of course what defines an unprovoked attack isn't something that can be easily defined as I believe either dr2little or illumina demonstrated.

* I believe that dog aggression is NOT a crime in the breed. Dog aggression is a trait common in MANY terrier breeds and is not just limited to the bully breeds. Can it be bred out? Yes... it can be bred out... Should it be? I don't feel that I am the person to make that judgement call. I also don't think many people should be in the position to make that judgement call alone - I think that should be a judgment made by people who actually know the breed, as well as the needs of today's society, inside and out.

* Do I think dog fighting should be legal? No. I do not feel that dog fighting is needed in this day and age. Especially since you can still demonstrate a dog's "willingness" to do something in sports like weightpulling.

I also believe that wiping out breed prejudice like is a lot like the idea of "world peace" - it's a great concept but probably not likely to happen as long as humans are in control. As long as we as humans continue to fear what we do not understand and what is basically out of our control then we will continue to hate no matter what facts or evidence there is to prove us wrong.

But that's just what I believe.

 

[pancho]

I've read this entire thread (save for the articles that were posted) and here are my thoughts - agree or disagree it doesn't much matter in the end.

I own a 5 year old pit-something or other mix. I adopted him as an adult from a vet tech program near where I live. The reasons I adopted him were simple: he is of a small size (his back is below my knee), he has a sweet disposition towards humans, he had a reputation at the school for being quiet, and he is a sturdy little animal.

I DID NOT adopt him to be dog friendly - although he is friendly towards other dogs... save for GSDs (we were attacked by one once - not just he but me too - and he's had a hate on for them since). I knew from the research I had done for the three months before I could bring him home that he would not be a candidate for a dog park. I knew that he'd have to be walked on leash always, and the only places he could be off leash is in a fenced in yard, or on my dad's farm back in Michigan.

I know that by doing my research before I brought him home, and by continuing to do the research that I do I am one of those sainted "responsible" dog owners. There are still a lot of things I am working on with my dog - like no jumping on people - but I will honestly say that my Mojo has been the best dog I have ever had. And everyone in my workplace knows that I will stand to hear no bad words against him or his fellow bully breeds without a fight.

My personal thoughts on the breeds are as follows:

* I believe that any dog that shows unfixable human aggression should be put to sleep. Perhaps some human aggression can be fixed - i am neither a dog trainer or a dog behaviorist to know definatively - but any human aggression should be dealt with immediately after the first snap or bite that occurs which is "unprovoked." Of course what defines an unprovoked attack isn't something that can be easily defined as I believe either dr2little or illumina demonstrated.

* I believe that dog aggression is NOT a crime in the breed. Dog aggression is a trait common in MANY terrier breeds and is not just limited to the bully breeds. Can it be bred out? Yes... it can be bred out... Should it be? I don't feel that I am the person to make that judgement call. I also don't think many people should be in the position to make that judgement call alone - I think that should be a judgment made by people who actually know the breed, as well as the needs of today's society, inside and out.

* Do I think dog fighting should be legal? No. I do not feel that dog fighting is needed in this day and age. Especially since you can still demonstrate a dog's "willingness" to do something in sports like weightpulling.

I also believe that wiping out breed prejudice like is a lot like the idea of "world peace" - it's a great concept but probably not likely to happen as long as humans are in control. As long as we as humans continue to fear what we do not understand and what is basically out of our control then we will continue to hate no matter what facts or evidence there is to prove us wrong.

But that's just what I believe.

I believe you are a very responsible dog owner
I believe you show great common sense, which is not that common.
I believe you will be a credit to whatever breed you choose.
I believe if there were a lot more like you there would be no use to have a ban against any breed.

 

[travelpet]

I've read this entire thread (save for the articles that were posted) and here are my thoughts - agree or disagree it doesn't much matter in the end.

I own a 5 year old pit-something or other mix. I adopted him as an adult from a vet tech program near where I live. The reasons I adopted him were simple: he is of a small size (his back is below my knee), he has a sweet disposition towards humans, he had a reputation at the school for being quiet, and he is a sturdy little animal.

I DID NOT adopt him to be dog friendly - although he is friendly towards other dogs... save for GSDs (we were attacked by one once - not just he but me too - and he's had a hate on for them since). I knew from the research I had done for the three months before I could bring him home that he would not be a candidate for a dog park. I knew that he'd have to be walked on leash always, and the only places he could be off leash is in a fenced in yard, or on my dad's farm back in Michigan.

I know that by doing my research before I brought him home, and by continuing to do the research that I do I am one of those sainted "responsible" dog owners. There are still a lot of things I am working on with my dog - like no jumping on people - but I will honestly say that my Mojo has been the best dog I have ever had. And everyone in my workplace knows that I will stand to hear no bad words against him or his fellow bully breeds without a fight.

My personal thoughts on the breeds are as follows:

* I believe that any dog that shows unfixable human aggression should be put to sleep. Perhaps some human aggression can be fixed - i am neither a dog trainer or a dog behaviorist to know definatively - but any human aggression should be dealt with immediately after the first snap or bite that occurs which is "unprovoked." Of course what defines an unprovoked attack isn't something that can be easily defined as I believe either dr2little or illumina demonstrated.

* I believe that dog aggression is NOT a crime in the breed. Dog aggression is a trait common in MANY terrier breeds and is not just limited to the bully breeds. Can it be bred out? Yes... it can be bred out... Should it be? I don't feel that I am the person to make that judgement call. I also don't think many people should be in the position to make that judgement call alone - I think that should be a judgment made by people who actually know the breed, as well as the needs of today's society, inside and out.

* Do I think dog fighting should be legal? No. I do not feel that dog fighting is needed in this day and age. Especially since you can still demonstrate a dog's "willingness" to do something in sports like weightpulling.

I also believe that wiping out breed prejudice like is a lot like the idea of "world peace" - it's a great concept but probably not likely to happen as long as humans are in control. As long as we as humans continue to fear what we do not understand and what is basically out of our control then we will continue to hate no matter what facts or evidence there is to prove us wrong.

But that's just what I believe.

I can't say I agree with you 100% and if I could, I'd wonder about both of us. But agree or not, you are obviously someone who does their homework and not easily influenced by other people's opinion, so I'll keep mine to myself. But one thing is for certain, MoJo is one lucky dog (in addition to be absolutely adorable), and you are one lucky pet owner. Now that's a workable situation.

Good luck (although something tells me you don't much rely on luck)...

 

[mojozen]

I can't say I agree with you 100% and if I could, I'd wonder about both of us. But agree or not, you are obviously someone who does their homework and not easily influenced by other people's opinion, so I'll keep mine to myself. But one thing is for certain, MoJo is one lucky dog (in addition to be absolutely adorable), and you are one lucky pet owner. Now that's a workable situation.

Good luck (although something tells me you don't much rely on luck)...

Whether you agree with me 100% or not, I'd still like to hear your opinions. I think even dissenting opinions based on what I have said here can help me to grow not only as a dog owner but also as a human.
Luck hasn't always been a friend of mine - this is true. But I thank you for your kind words.

 

[mojozen]

I believe you are a very responsible dog owner
I believe you show great common sense, which is not that common.
I believe you will be a credit to whatever breed you choose.
I believe if there were a lot more like you there would be no use to have a ban against any breed.

Thank you for your kind words...

 

[elegy]

Now we come to dog breeds that were trained to be D/A during their developement , and all of a sudden, I hear a few people stating that "genetics has absolutely nothing to do with the dog's behavior, it's entirely bad owners that are responsible". I think that is ridiculous to say on one hand that genetics plays a big role, but when it comes to this particular breed, it has nothing to do with anything .......

i believe that genetics plays a huge part in what makes pit bulls dog aggressive and you'll never see me say otherwise. i think socialization can mediate the issue, and i think that there are dogs who are more tolerant of other dogs than others, and yes, even some pit bulls who are "cold", but i think anybody who does not think that genetics plays an important role in dog aggression and that pit bulls are just like golden retrievers is a flat out fool. i also think all pit bulls have the potential to be dog-aggressive and that if you put your pit bull in situations where he could get himself into trouble, you're irresponsible and a threat to *my* right to own my dogs.

but just because a dog is dog-aggressive does not mean that he's untrainable, and just because a dog is dog-aggressive does not make him a hazard to others and it doesn't make him dangerous. that IS why responsible ownership is what it's all about.

there are plenty of dog-aggressive dogs of lots of breeds out there living with responsible owners and not causing anybody a problem at all. you may pass them on the street, see them competing in a dog-sport event, see them at the vet's office and not even know they're dog-aggressive. because they've been taught how to behave. that doesn't mean they wouldn't throw down in a heartbeat if put in a certain situation.

 

[travelpet]

i believe that genetics plays a huge part in what makes pit bulls dog aggressive and you'll never see me say otherwise. i think socialization can mediate the issue, and i think that there are dogs who are more tolerant of other dogs than others, and yes, even some pit bulls who are "cold", but i think anybody who does not think that genetics plays an important role in dog aggression and that pit bulls are just like golden retrievers is a flat out fool. i also think all pit bulls have the potential to be dog-aggressive and that if you put your pit bull in situations where he could get himself into trouble, you're irresponsible and a threat to *my* right to own my dogs.

but just because a dog is dog-aggressive does not mean that he's untrainable, and just because a dog is dog-aggressive does not make him a hazard to others and it doesn't make him dangerous. that IS why responsible ownership is what it's all about.

there are plenty of dog-aggressive dogs of lots of breeds out there living with responsible owners and not causing anybody a problem at all. you may pass them on the street, see them competing in a dog-sport event, see them at the vet's office and not even know they're dog-aggressive. because they've been taught how to behave. that doesn't mean they wouldn't throw down in a heartbeat if put in a certain situation.

I don't agree and I am not a fool, thank you. I dare say, it is a good bet that I am a considerably bit older than you are and have seen a good deal in my time on this earth. If genetics played the greatest role, than a mixed-breed dog would not be as animal aggressive as a purebred pit bull. Not true. It is, in fact, more difficult to socialize a dog that 1/2-3/4 pit than it is a pure bred pit. Why? I haven't a clue, but I have seen it numerous times and believe it is true at least most if not all the time. It would also be easy to breed out the aggressiveness if it were purely genetic. It would also mean that ALL pit bulls would be equally as aggressive. In fact, I know that not to be the case. I have fostered nearly a dozen pit bulls (about half mixed and half pures) in my day and found that the pure bred pit bulls (especially the males) who have not been abused to be very gentle and dog friendly. Females are bit more complex for what reason, I don't know.

I personally prefer mixed-breed because they tend not to have the medical problems of pures and, IMO, are smarter and easier to train. The exception again, being the animal aggressiveness in mixed-bred pits. It does not appear to matter with what the mixture is, except possibly in the dog's strength being noticeable greater when mixed with another strong breed, i.e., rottie, dobie, etc.

If you wish to learn something from outside your own sphere, I would suggest that aside from sharing your own experiences, you listen and garner the benefit of the experiences of others and stop calling people who may not agree with you (who may KNOW better) names.

 

[GSDluver4lyfe]

I never denied the fact that pit bull types (including many breeds) are a naturally DA dog. But my point is pitbulls at dog shows survive without killing each other. So to say they are all vicious is rediculous.