Nancy Grace has gone too far

[tempura tantrum]

Why can you go to a dog show where there are up to 50 Pit Bulls (usually intact males) together and they are surrounded by other dogs, children, strangers poking and pulling them and yet no one ever gets bit? I will tell you why....because the dogs there are well bred and raised. If they are more dangerous and born killers as you imply this couldn't possiblly happen! Please stop listening to the fear monger press and get out and meet some dogs and owners who raise wonderful dogs.

Exactly.

You just aren't going to see these animals mauling/maiming/killing people when they come from responsible breeders and are handled by people who UNDERSTAND THE RISKS OF OWNING SAID BREED.

The guy in the story being debated OBVIOUSLY not only didn't understand his own breed, he didn't understand DOGS, period.

Animal behaviorists everywhere must be ripping their hair out at this. It's COMPLETELY illogical to expect ANIMALS to see a squirmy, defenseless, tiny creature, that makes a MYRIAD of squeeky, high-pitched, PREY-LIKE sounds as a HUMAN BEING. Anyone who's ever seen a dog chase screaming kids (even in what looks to be like fun), can recognize the potential for danger there.

I learned that lesson myself when I was ten years old and got nailed in the leg after running and screaming from my Aunt's cattle dog mix. The minute I stopped, turned, and issued a command to sit- she did so. I got my first REAL lesson in animal behavior right there.

That prey drive is present in varying degrees in ANY breed. It is OUR responsibility as OWNERS to know how to deal with it effectively. And part of that means not being dumb enough to leave a 1 year old child alone with a pack of dogs.

Dogs are NOT humans, and we should NEVER expect them to operate by our own social mores. To do so is a HUGE disservice not only to ourselves, but to the dogs as well.

To argue that they SHOULD is to argue a completely useless point. We can't make dogs any less canine. We CAN however educate PEOPLE to "become more canine." To learn to stop anthropomorphising their animals and see them for what they are- ANIMALS.

 

[travelpet]

And they're always going to turn to the breeds they currently turn to. If these breeds are outlawed, they're going to break the law or breed mixes to skirt the letter of the law. It's not rocket science. Poodles aren't going to turn up snarling over their tuffets at a biker bar, no matter how far BSL goes.

Yes, they can and they will...poodles can be as sweet or as mean as they are taught. Like the dobbie, they are relatively intelligent and standards are relatively large, so they could easily be the next "devil".

You're posting your opinion and cherry-picking news stories to support your opinion. Which is legit, but let's not get carrie away and act like this constitutes an objective truth. And yes, I get upset when someone attacks my breed - that's what I feel like, every time one of the pro-pit people says dog aggression isn't a problem, that pits aren't people-aggressive by history, so the media's attitude toward them is just so wroooong. I understand that you're upset by the legal dangers faced by your dogs, but you don't appear to understand that part of the reason dog people in general don't all support pits is that pits often pose a physical danger to their dogs.

And you're not?!!! At least those of us supporting the pit have first-hand experience with them, do you?? "I've met many", doesn't qualify as knowing them. In my previous occupation, I've met MANY celebrities, I KNOW very few. I think you have should concentrate on keeping your dog out of trouble rather than blasting others of which you have little to no knowledge.

I never feared pit bulls until the day I found one killing my dog at my feet. And no, a GSD couldn't have done that. A GSD once tried that, and was kicked off in a few seconds. So don't give me this attitude like you're the only one who's ever met a pit bull and thought it was so sweet and people are just so wrong about them. I went through that stage. But the situation is more complicated than that. Not all pit bulls deserve to be banned or killed, but no dog or child or adult deserves to be mauled by a dog whose owner is hiding behind the 'ban the deed' mantra, which is what MOST pit bull owners are doing. The good guys in this breed/type are in the minority.

If you believe the tribble you are posting about the ability of GDS to attack and kill, you need to acquaint yourself with facts and your poor dog is in terrible danger with an owner as blind and misinformed as you are. It has my sympathies. You are sorely lacking in knowledge and over compensating in opinion. Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with actual court cases involving GSDs mauling and killing other animals, dogs and cats, and young children. When I read this post I was enraged, now you have my sympathy...you lack in maturity, intelligence, reasoning and knowledge. Come back and join the discussion when you grow up.

 

[travelpet]

Exactly.

You just aren't going to see these animals mauling/maiming/killing people when they come from responsible breeders and are handled by people who UNDERSTAND THE RISKS OF OWNING SAID BREED.

The guy in the story being debated OBVIOUSLY not only didn't understand his own breed, he didn't understand DOGS, period.

Animal behaviorists everywhere must be ripping their hair out at this. It's COMPLETELY illogical to expect ANIMALS to see a squirmy, defenseless, tiny creature, that makes a MYRIAD of squeeky, high-pitched, PREY-LIKE sounds as a HUMAN BEING. Anyone who's ever seen a dog chase screaming kids (even in what looks to be like fun), can recognize the potential for danger there.

I learned that lesson myself when I was ten years old and got nailed in the leg after running and screaming from my Aunt's cattle dog mix. The minute I stopped, turned, and issued a command to sit- she did so. I got my first REAL lesson in animal behavior right there.

That prey drive is present in varying degrees in ANY breed. It is OUR responsibility as OWNERS to know how to deal with it effectively. And part of that means not being dumb enough to leave a 1 year old child alone with a pack of dogs.

Dogs are NOT humans, and we should NEVER expect them to operate by our own social mores. To do so is a HUGE disservice not only to ourselves, but to the dogs as well.

To argue that they SHOULD is to argue a completely useless point. We can't make dogs any less canine. We CAN however educate PEOPLE to "become more canine." To learn to stop anthropomorphising their animals and see them for what they are- ANIMALS.

What a perfect response....THANK YOU. I am as guilty as anyone of "humanizing" my dogs until my youngest one killed a bunny in our yard a year ago. I wanted to strangle her, until I was reminded that she IS a dog and she has instincts of a dog, not a human. I love her, she's my baby, but I purposely keep reminding myself, they are animals not humans and they don't reason like humans, which DOES put the responsibility on the human member of the party. Thank you...I'm going to, with your permission, reprint your post to my pet group. May I?

 

[muggsies16]

Lets not forget pack instinct as well. When the alpha dog starts the others follow. Not everyone should own more than one dog and maybe this guy should never had either. Child or dog!

 

[chinchow]

It seems nobody wants to listen anymore...

So when YOUR breed is the one being banned, then we can talk. Until then, you don't know, so don't try to say that your breed will not be next.

Also, I highly doubt a Pit Bull would mistake a child for a dog. Dogs go off of body language, and obviously a human does not give the same body cues as a dog does. Mistaking a human for a dog, HIGHLY unlikely, however, mistaking a human's body posture for being a threat, that's very common, and one of the biggest reasons dogs attack.

 

[muggsies16]

It seems nobody wants to listen anymore...

So when YOUR breed is the one being banned, then we can talk. Until then, you don't know, so don't try to say that your breed will not be next.

Also, I highly doubt a Pit Bull would mistake a child for a dog. Dogs go off of body language, and obviously a human does not give the same body cues as a dog does. Mistaking a human for a dog, HIGHLY unlikely, however, mistaking a human's body posture for being a threat, that's very common, and one of the biggest reasons dogs attack.

Yes, you do have a point. No one wants their breed banned, especially if you take great care of them. It's situations as this that causes the problem.

It is important to understand, that a child that yound does not know what type of body cue he/she is sending off. There is nothing that we can say and or do. The kids dead, the dads going to jail, the dogs are more than likely going to be destroyed.

I as a older person, which has been around the block and back again, can tell you that no matter the situation, no matter the out come, this too will find a ending place.

If there is anyone to blame here is the father and the mother of the kid.

 

[Boemy]

Yeah, in the 80s german shepherds and dobermans were the "devil dogs." There were tons of dobie and shepherd attacks showing up in the paper, some local but most from other parts of the nation. I was thirteen when I got my first dog and my mom absolutely would not consider any animal at the shelter who was part shepherd. (I don't think there were any there who were part dobie, but she certainly wouldn't have allowed one of those either.) To this day she considers german shepherds and dobies to be inherently aggressive and believes people shouldn't have them "when there are so many nice breeds out there." It only takes a few brutal, well-publicized attacks to make the general public believe that breeds X, Y, and Z should be banned.

 

[chinchow]

Exactly, Boemy. And unfortunately, if it ever does get to a world ban on Pits, this will only move onto the next breed. Once you force one thing out of the picture, the public will complain about whatever comes next in line. It's been done countless times before. The people, and those in charge, like to complain.

I keep my prayers with the owners of these dogs. And I really hope they don't have their beloved family pets ripped from them based on what breed or mix they are. I've been down this road myself, and still have trouble with my dogs, but at least it's gotten a little better, because people TRIED, and it worked.

 

[tempura tantrum]

I'm going to, with your permission, reprint your post to my pet group. May I?

No problem!

And Chinchow- I don't know if you were referring to my post when saying that you don't believe the PBs mistook the child for a dog, but just to clear things up, I don't either. What I DO believe is that they could quite easily NOT have recognized the child as HUMAN. Babies really DON'T resemble or behave in a way that mirrors adult human beings. They do however, make a lot of sounds and movements that would easily incite a prey drive.

And if these dogs were kept outside, chained, with little access to the house (as the story seems to say), it's quite possible they never had much contact with babies. I remember the first time Tai met my little brother when he came home from the hospital. He was completely bewildered. He just couldn't figure out what it was making all of those sounds. We made sure to allow Tai well-supervised visits with Alec, and now that both are 8 years old, they're best of friends.

But you can BET we never left Alec alone in a room with Tai. Even knowing this dog has the patience of saint compared to most of his breed, it's NEVER worth the risk of a bite. If there's one thing you can ALWAYS count on with children, it's that they're unpredictable.

 

[Boemy]

I agree, Tempura. The reason those dogs were wagging their tails when the animal control officers came in is that they weren't territorial or vicious in the sense that they normally attacked people. Their prey drive was triggered by the baby because babies DON'T act like adult humans or even kids . . . They act like prey.

Here's an excerpt from an article about the importance of being careful around kids if you have a wolf-hybrid or "tame" wolf. The wolf mentioned here lives in a natural reserve (Wolf Park), but is socialized with humans.

As an example of the power of this behavior, at Wolf Park we have a wolf, Imbo, who until he was six years old, was exceptionally good with children. He essentially viewed kids as super puppies -- they would scratch his ears, rub his back, and wouldn't even food beg! Then one day, late in the summer of 1987, Imbo saw a young child throw a tantrum. Imbo watched with interest as this child, about 20 feet away, was on the ground kicking and screaming. Then, only a week later, a child with Tourettes syndrome visited and Imbo watched as she flailed her arms about and made interesting noises. Again this was from a distance. Since we only allow wolves to greet children while we walk them on leashes, Imbo had no opportunity to "test" either situation further. Soon after this, we could see a change in Imbo. A friend brought her infant out and laid the child on a blanket within sight of the wolves. A few weeks before, Imbo would have approached the fence, head lowered, ears back -- in a submissive manner as wolves typically do when they are approaching puppies. However, this time it was different. Imbo rushed up, ears pricked, and then ran excitedly back and forth along the fence, as though he were expecting food! It was very clear that Imbo's perception of children had changed, dramatically so -- and this change occurred just through observation. He was simply exposed to the proper releasing stimulus and bang!: what he had treated as wolf pups, he now viewed as prey.

Dogs, of any breed, don't have a prey drive as strong as a wolves. Wolves need super high prey drive, dogs don't--we feed them. BUT in individual dogs, prey drive can be triggered. That's why it's foolish to leave any child--especially a baby or toddler--alone with a dog.

 

[casablanca1]

If you believe the tribble you are posting about the ability of GDS to attack and kill, you need to acquaint yourself with facts and your poor dog is in terrible danger with an owner as blind and misinformed as you are. It has my sympathies. You are sorely lacking in knowledge and over compensating in opinion. Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with actual court cases involving GSDs mauling and killing other animals, dogs and cats, and young children. When I read this post I was enraged, now you have my sympathy...you lack in maturity, intelligence, reasoning and knowledge. Come back and join the discussion when you grow up.

The word is drivel. A tribble is a small furry Star Trek creature. I find it amazing that you are capable of not knowing a word which, by all available evidence, is so deeply true to your very essence.

 

[Georgygirl]

^^^^ That was uncalled for Casa. When you post just to pick apart someone's vocabulary it really makes you look ridiculous. You obviously understood what they meant.

 

[adoptashelterpettoday]

This is still going on? I dont even want to look back.

I have to say that I talked to a lady with a local rescue I volunteer with. Her roomate had a BELGIUM MALINOS, a trained police dog. The roomate was a K9 handler for the local police department. They were training on Thursday and the dog (again a Malanois) attacked her Thursday night and went for her throat. For absolutly no reason. This girl was pretty close to dead. Her roomate told me that when she went to the hospital to visit her roomate, you could see her the larynx (whatever that thing is that's you swollow with), that it was completly open and that had the dog not been called off when it was her roomate would be DEAD. Oh yeah the dog also mangled her hand, it went for her hand first then went for her throat. I was told this was a very nice dog who has never had aggression issues.

Crap like that happens all of the time but we dont see it.

Say what you want but ask this girl if she thinks pits are the most dangerous dogs??

Did I see it in the newspaper?? On TV?? OF COURSE NOT. No sign of it at all, nothing. Not a single mention in any way about this dog almost killing this girl. Why? Because it wasnt a pit bull and wont sell as many papers.

Oh, yeah Guess what the best part is? THEY ARE SELLING THE DOG TO SOMEONE ELSE! What a great idea!

 

[muggsies16]

What a said story! I will pray for the girl that was injured. The dog should be destroyed, my thoughts only!

 

[Georgygirl]

I agree with you muggsies. I think if a dog bites a person it should be pts unless it was provoked. And if it was provoked, then I think they should still do a temperment test on the dog just in case.

 

[casablanca1]

^^^^ That was uncalled for Casa. When you post just to pick apart someone's vocabulary it really makes you look ridiculous. You obviously understood what they meant.

Gregorygirl, I don't usually joke about spelling or usage mistakes, but when someone is so catty as to tell me she's 'sorry' for my dog for having me for an owner, and then indulges in a hyperbolic insult-fest (I'm blind and misinformed, as well as lacking in maturity, intelligence, reasoning
and knowledge) that winds up with the classic exhortation to 'grow up' - well, there's no real conversation taking place. It's just her being abusive. So I shot a little barb back at her by joking about drivel/tribble, and that's all there is to it.

 

[Dizzy]

I agree with you muggsies. I think if a dog bites a person it should be pts unless it was provoked. And if it was provoked, then I think they should still do a temperment test on the dog just in case.

I think the danger in that is knowing when a dog is provoked or not... who was there to witness it, what is classed as provocation etc etc etc

Not saying it's right - but legally, you'd be up sh1t creek if you allowed a dangerous dog to attack again....

 

[adoptashelterpettoday]

My thoughts too. Ethically I dont see how the police department would sell a dog who has already demonstrated aggression. The roomate (when we were discussing it) said the dog shouldnt be euthanized, that a previous handler wanted the dog. IMHO, I have to disagree. I dont think anyone should get that dog. The handler did nothing to set him off, he was just "having a bad day". I sure as heck know if one of my dogs lunged at me (although that wont happen), they would be dead before I got back from the hospital. This dog very well could attack the next person who gets it. You can't tolerate aggression, no matter what breed. From what I understand the girl is out of the hospital (as of yesterday?) and will recover fine. Her roomate (who you would just have to know) took her to the academy to say goodbye to some people who were graduating and she also took her by the dog's run. Of course, the girl wouldnt go in there but the roomate did. The roomate believes it will help her heal to see the dog again. I know, myself, I wouldnt want to see the dog again. It's scary to know that this dog had a superb personality, was a very well bred Malinois, who knows how much the PD paid for him, and yet he almost killed his handler for no reason.....

I am hoping they will talk to Diane Jessup & perhaps consider taking one of her rescues in. To me that would be spectacular.

 

[Georgygirl]

Very true Dizzy. I guess things are never as black and white as we'd like them to be.

Casa, I understand where you're coming from, but it's just going to turn into a never ending cycle if people keep trying to get digs in. I haven't always agreed with you in previous discussions, but I've never known you to make comments like that. I guess it just suprised me a little.

 

[ToscasMom]

There are two interesting things about statistics. First, you can do anything you want with them, dependent on what point you want to make.

The second interesting thing about statistics is, they don't mean a thing unless you become one of them.

Just some food for thought.