Nancy Grace has gone too far

muggsies16 · Nov 9, 2006

Everyone has their issues and points to make about the Pitbull's. Everyone, has their preferance, let it be a muscle bred, a Shepherd, or a Chi.

As far as the Pit being a popular breed, yes you are right they are but for all the wrong reasons.

Have you sat back and watched how Pit owners handle their dogs? Have you ever interacted with a drug dealer that has that dog to protect them?

Who know's why and what caused the dogs to kill the child, no matter it happened! Who is to blame? The owner the father the mother. The kid suffer's no more! The fate of the dogs are just that, death. That is a good thing. They don't deserve to live after hurting a child. This would be for all breeds and their owners.

Amstaffer · Nov 9, 2006

ToscasMom said:

She is a very angry woman and there IS a history. I believe her fiance was murdered. I can't remember the details but it was a brutal criminal act of chance and she became a prosecutor as a result of it. A very successful one. She is a very angry woman as a result of her life experiences, for what it is worth.

angery and clearly illogical

Amstaffer · Nov 9, 2006

mamasobuco said:

If you have a chance....Drive thru and large American city and you will quickly find out that Pit Bulls are BYE FAR the most popular breed. In Milwaukee (as Chicago, Detroit, LA etc....) for every 10 dogs I see 9 are pit bulls.... This is not an exaggeration. I live in Milwaukee and honestly rarely see a non-pit bull unless I drive out to the burbs. The second most popular is the rottie, then GSD.

If they wanted their stats to mean something they would compare the number of bites to the total number of dogs by that breed in the area. For example if there are ten times as many Pits in an area as say Goldens, wouldn't logic dictate that you would expect Pits to record 10 times as many bites if all things are equal?

Why is that part of Stats class always forgotten? On reason you hear of very few Tibeten Mastiffs killing people is because there are very few of them and even fewer of them in Densely populated areas (cities)

mamasobuco · Nov 9, 2006

Amstaffer said:

I live in the Cleveland, Ohio area and I know exaclty where the pits live and I know exactly the kinds of people who own them and I know exactly what's in their blood line. One of the biggest fighting breeders lived on my father's street in Cleveland in the 80's. Most of the back yard pits in our area come from his dogs. He had MANY of them. I am not ignorant of the breed. I owned one and she was a sweetie pie.
If you break down the percentages of lets say attacks by labs (being the most popular breed in the suburbs of Cleveland) in respect to their numbers and compare them to the percentage of attacks by pits compared to their numbers, I would bet my annual salary for the next 10 years that the actually ratio between the number of dogs and the number of attacks are much higher for the pits.

zoe08 · Nov 9, 2006

I didn't read this whole thread, but my mother and I were talking about the pits that killed the baby, and she had seen Nancy Grace.

All I have to say is the father is an absolute idiot, and should never be allowed to reproduce again. I don't care if it's pit, a beagle, a chihuahua whatever, MY child will NEVER be left alone in a room with a dog until it is big enough and old enough to handle it. I have a beagle my fiance has 2 huskies, my child will not be left alone with any of them. One of his huskies nearly knocked me down the other day, not out of aggression, but he is like a cat and rubs on your legs. When a 70 pound dog does that, its hard not to be knocked back. So I will not leave my kids unattended with them. It doesn't mean I don't trust the dogs. But the dog could just be playing and hurt a child.

Also, those 4 pits were kept on a chain before he moved into the trailer....what does that tell you? They probably didn't have much socialization.

Another thing is that the baby is like the size of a toy to them, if they haven't been around it, how are they gonna know its not? No one was in there either, so you don't know what the kid did. He could have pulled an ear or a tail or something the dogs weren't prepared for.

This entirely comes down to the fault of the father of the child. Do I think there should be a restriction on breeding pit bulls? Yes. Do I think people should not be allowed to own them? NO.

There are too many pit bull backyard breeders though, and I wish there was a way to control breeding. Those people that breed them send them to homes that put them on chains, or don't take them to the obediance classes, and train them. They send them to homes that want a pit bull because of their reputation.

But I think there should be restriction of breeding all together, all breeds. But I know that it won't happen. There will always be puppy mills, there will always be backyard breeders, and there will always be idiots that have dogs.

adoptashelterpettoday · Nov 9, 2006

Yup, I posted an entire list of non pit bull attacks.

Sure, "pit bulls" have more attacks but most of those attacks arent pit bulls. The media sells a lot more papers if they ARE pit bulls so that is what they become:

A case of mistaken Identity...

Quite often dogs that attack are identified as pit bulls when they are not. It seems that that any dog of medium build with short hair is thought to be a pit bull. There are 20+ breeds that are commonly incorrectly identified as pit bulls.

The worst part of this identity problem is that the initial attack has frontpage coverage with PIT BULL all over it. Then several day's later when they properly identify the dog as a mix breed or another breed that story is a line or two on page 30 buried.

Some examples:

Dog attacks that were identified incorrectly!

Kansas City, MO March 6, 2006 Headlines on the news report "Pit Bull attacks 12 yr old". However the dog pictured being captured isn't a pit bull, nor does it appear to me a pit mix. After complaints to the News station regarding the breed id and using the term Pit Bull, what did they do? They removed the picture of the dog and left it as a pit bull attacks story.

Read Story

Picture of dog:

February 2006 Massachusetts - A 7yr old was killed by a large breed dog. The dog has been reported as a Bull Mastiff as well as an English Mastiff.

Dog is identified as a Rottie but from photo appears to be a Rhodesian Ridgeback

December 2005, Detroit. There was a 91yr old woman that appears to have been killed by her dog. Initial reports of course indicate it's a pit bull, a report the next morning identifies the dog as a Bull Mastiff, and yet another says it's a possible pit bull / American Bulldog mix. Then end result, it's a 90lb mixed breed dog, end of story. If you don't know the breed, don't write it.
Story indicating the victim was 91, it was a 90lb pit bull 10 years old and had belonged to her grandson who died last year.

Another story saying it's a pit bull and that she was 92 and her grandson died 4 yrs ago. Also says there was a visitor in the home and as well as gentleman who rents a room in the home.

Here the dog is an 80lb 3 yr old Bull Mastiff

In this story we have a Pit bull / American Bulldog mix.

December 2005 - New York; Article indicates the officer was attacked by a Pit Bull, yet the picture of the dog being led aware is not a pit bull.

Indiana (September 2005) American Bulldog attacks child it was initialy reported by press as pit bull attack.

Initial Story Corrected story

North Towanda, NY (October 2005)- This attack was initially reported as Pit bulls. The dogs were later correctly identified as a Lab Mix and a Mastiff Mix.

So it happens yet again. In Saginaw Michigan (August 2005). A couple of dogs entered a petting zoo and killed some animals and wounded several others. The two dogs were identified as "pit bulls", one dog was shot and killed by a zoo employee and the other was taken into custody. This story made national news because of course it is a "pit bull" story. The problem, it was NOT a pit bull, nor a pit bull mix.

This dog was identified as a Pit Bull. This dog is not a pit bull and based on this picture doesn't appear to be a pit bull mix even. Indiana Zoo Story

Another case of mistaken identity. Headlines after fatal attack " Pit bull kills baby", The TRUE story, it was an American Bulldog that killed the child. The families American Pit Bull Terrier, attempted to save the child by attacking the other dog in an attempt to get her to release the child according to the parent.

Boy LIES about being attacked by Pit Bull. It was his friends German Shepard!

In Sterling Heights Michigan there was an incident involving a pit bull and a Rottie. According to police records the rottie lunged at them on scene and had to be killed. The Major TV news and print press of course wrote that the pit bull was the dog that attacked the officers and was killed at the scene. The small local paper, got the story right!

Article title reads "Rapid Dog" but reading the story it's a Racoon.

Boxer mauls toddler, dog incorrectly identified as a Pit Bull : This one is the worst of the worst!! The headline read's Pit Bull, but you will find as you read the story it is correctly identified in the story as a Boxer.

Ottawa Sun, headlines read about a Pit Bull attacking to brothers. Many days later they find the dogs are believed to be Bull Mastiffs not pit bulls.

Council Bluffs, IA (who passed BSL based on stories like this one) Teen NOT bitten by pit bull as originaly said. When properly identified the dog is a Lab mix.

Loose dog attack fabricated!! Woman reported loose dogs, one described as a Rottie came into her house and attacked her. It turns out she was attacked by dogs that lived in her house! The dogs were a Dachshund and a Labrador.

Media Misreported - Teen was NOT bitten by a Pit bull. Once the dog was PROPERLY identified it turned out to be a LAB Mix. Feb 2005

An attack incorrectly labeled as a Pit Bull. Dog was correctly identified as a Dalmatian Mix!

I got that from http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/MistakenIdentity/WrongId.htm

And I am willing to bet there are tons more out there where the dog was mislabeled but there was never a picture attached so we couldnt say for sure.

Also on the show, she said that pit bulls & pit bull TYPE dogs were responsible for 22% of fatal attacks. However, Nancy Grace's figures had "pit bulls & pit bull TYPE dogs", that could mean a bulldog, a mastiff, an American bulldog, a Dogo Argentinia (sp?). It could mean any breed that looks like a pit bull. so if she were fair, she would have only put actually pits or pit mixes on there and not included "pit bull type dogs" as well because that could be any breed or mix of dog, as long as it sort of looks like a pit..BUT that would have been the truth and ruined her point so she manipulated it a little bit.

Our beloved mutts were responsible for 19% of fatal attacks. Looks like mutts will be banned next.

Bobsk8 · Nov 9, 2006

On Headline News Prime last night they had a piece on Pit Bulls. They had some very recent statistics on deaths caused by dog attacks in the US. The Pit Pulls were at the top of the list with 28. The next dog in line was the Rottweiler with about 14. Then a mix of dogs with 1 or 2 for each one.

Amstaffer · Nov 9, 2006

Bobsk8 said:

Once again for those stats to mean anything you need to know how those numbers relate to the percentage of the total population each breed is in the total population of dogs in the immeditate area of the attacks.

Even then it just points out which breed has the worst owners not which breed is more dangerous.

mamasobuco · Nov 9, 2006

Amstaffer said:

I agree with your second point but I would add bad breeders to that statement.

As far as the stats on human deaths and serious attacks (calculated together or separate), I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on that. My bet would be that the ratio is still much higher for pits and not because of what the breed was 50 years ago but because of what has been bred into them for the past 30+ years.

Amstaffer · Nov 9, 2006

mamasobuco said:

Also figure in the the amount of abuse levied on the Pit Bull today, I would bet my next 10 annual pay checks that the Pit Bull is the most abused dog today in America. It is amazing to me that they don't dog bite more often.

casablanca1 · Nov 9, 2006

adoptashelterpettoday said:

When people say 'pit bull,' they're not talking about a breed, because there is not 'pit bull' breed. They're talking about a type. And American Bulldogs and their mixes are that type. It's completely legitimate to call such dogs 'pit bulls,' in the same way people call various breeds and mixes 'terriers' or 'spaniels.'

adoptashelterpettoday said:

I'm sure you're aware that 'lab mix' and 'dalmation mix' are two popular euphemisms for 'pit bull.'

adoptashelterpettoday said:

Wait just one second. It's not all of our beloved mutts that are the problem. It's the bulldog and mastiff mixes.

muggsies16 · Nov 9, 2006

mamasobuco said:

Exactly, it starts with the breeder, no matter which way you look at it. Improper breeding, then not giving a dame where and who they go too. Done!

Have you ever looked at the price tag on the Pit bull popular breeds. Yup, they start at $100.00 and may go up to $300.00. Is it worth a kids life. No not at all. Only my point of veiw.

adoptashelterpettoday · Nov 9, 2006

Um..That's not what Nancy Grace's figures said. Rotts were actually at the bottom of the list. It went Pits & "pit type dogs" to mixes and GSDs then it went to Rotties if I remember correctly. I know for sure mutts were 2nd and a close second at that.

Another reason she is untrustworthy.

BOB-Have you ever met a pit bull? I find that people who hate them so much have never even met one. If you havent you shouldnt be talking. Sure there are bad owners but there are bad GSD owners as well as bad yorkie and Shih Tzu owners. I have been volunteering at the shelter for a year now. I am most frightened when I go to the shelter (have been going for a year now) of the tiny dogs who will nip you because their previous owner thought it was funny when they bit. The dog I am most afraid of there now is a Blue Heeler mix. I havent ever seen a pit on the adoption floor who is anything but extremly well behaved. The blue heeler as well as the scary labs as well as the scary small breed dogs I am sure would be fine once outside a kennel but the pits actually come up to the front of the cage, very meekly and ask to be pet. The labs & that blue heeler are all over the place and bark at you when you even walk by their cage.

Give me a pit over a lab any day.

Like I said BOB-If i were you I would watch out because your mixed breed dog could be next to be banned. Dont know if you read it or not but they have banned GSDs and GSD mixes a couple of places already..

ANY breed can be next, that's the sad part.

Again I am sure there are aggressive pits but they were TAUGHT to be that way or were poorly socialized and never paid attention to. I guess I am lucky I only know responsible pit bull owners (except my neighbor but his dogs are still sweet although they are chained 24/7, need to talk to AC about them but I dont want to start a fight and have them retaliate by doing something to my dogs)...

I say without a doubt in my mind, charge the owners of aggressive dogs (any breed) who kill with murder. You have to be responsible at some point.

Confucious · Nov 9, 2006

I have a dog called Britney

adoptashelterpettoday · Nov 9, 2006

Um..I have a Dalmatian and um..he isnt a pit bull??

Not sure, that statement really didnt make sense. THE DOGS IN THE STORIES WERNT PIT BULLS PERIOD!! Dalmatian mix doesnt not = pit bull mix by any stretch of the imagination.

I would think dog people of all people would understand why BSL is wrong but I guess you all wont be happy until we have no dogs.

So casa is saying all bull breeds (which includ Am bulldogs, english bull dogs) as well as Mastiffs (that is also very broad) are the "problem"?? Let's ban GSDs next then Rotties then Dobies then labs then golden retrievers then mixed breed dogs then...dont you see it doesnt end.

Pits arent the problem it is their owners.

I found this interesting:
"FATAL DOG ATTACKS"
The Stories Behind the Statistics
by Karen Delise

Reproductive Status of Dogs
Overwhelmingly, the dogs involved in fatal dog attacks were unaltered males.
From 2000-2001 there were 41 fatal dog attacks. Of these, 28 were attacks by a single dog and 13 fatalities were caused by multiple dogs.

Of the 28 single dogs responsible for a fatal attack between 2000-2001;
26 were males and 2 were females. Of the 26 males, 21 were found to be intact (the reproductive status of the remaining 5 males dogs could not be determined).

States with the Most Fatalities - 1965-2001
California, 47; Texas, 32; Alaska, 26; Florida, 22; New York, 19; Michigan, 18; Illinois, 18; North Carolina, 17; Georgia, 16.

While at times informative, statistics on fatal dog attacks can also be misleading. For example, a number of cases were a Pit Bull, Rottweiler or GSD were counted as causing a human fatality were in reality the direct result of gross human negligence or criminal intent (i.e. discarding a newborn in the yard where the dogs were kept, or cases of extremely emaciated animals, or cases were the dog was ordered or encouraged to attack the victim).

This study was conducted not to determine which breeds of dogs caused fatalities, but rather to examine the circumstances and events that precipitated an attack. "

My suggestion, what I push for is stricter dangerous dog laws, no matter what breed the dog is. A dog who bites more than once or who mauls or fatally injures someone should be killed period, unless the owner shows an extreme commitment to rehabilitate the animal or can find an experienced rescue group or a trainer willing to rehab the animal (of course in the case of fatality or extreme biting/aggression the dog should be killed immediatly). Even if it is a little Shih Tzu that keeps biting someone, that dog needs to be labeled dangerous and proper actions need to be taken. Because if that Shih Tzu bites a child, it could seriously injure the child.

In the cases of fatal attacks the owner should be held liable, they should go to jail and should never be allowed to own another dog. In the cases of maulings and bitings, the owner should have to pay a very steep fine as well as restitution to the victim and get their animal sterilized and be put on a special list. This should include every breed not just pit bulls.

sweetbassets · Nov 9, 2006

When I hear the name Pit, or Pit Bull I think of The American Pit Bull Terrier. I'm sorry but, I don't see American Bulldogs or any other breeds as Pit Bulls. Maybe it's just me. I can understand that people who own APBT's don't like to be called that, but the only thing I don't understand is why alot, not all but alot, call them Bulldogs. Bulldogs are a breed. English Bulldog is not a registered name it is just describing a type, they are just Bulldogs. So I don't like it when people who have APBT's or any other breed calls their dogs Bulldogs. Yes they are "bullys", or part of the "bully breeds", but not Bulldogs.
I have nothing against APBT's. I think they are beautiful dogs. I just had to add my two cents on the name subject.

travelpet · Nov 9, 2006

Bobsk8 said:

Geez, Bobsk8, I don't know, what do you do about GS that attack and kill? You might notice, if you can reason it through, that police use GS breed as patrol/attack dogs, not Pits or Rotties. Do you suppose that is because the GS is incapable of attacking or killing?

ALL problems with behavior of ANY breed sans medical problems, is the fault of the human involved. You want to punish someone for the aggressive, dangerous behavior of ANY dog...look to the human. No dog of any breed, again sans medical problems, is born aggressive.

I sound like a broken record but the truth is the truth...Pits, Rotties and other "aggressive breeds" (donned that by the uninformed) require more work at socialization and control than my lab/greyhound because they are naturally powerful dogs with very powerful jaws. If you own any of those breed dogs or mixes with those breeds, you have to WORK at teaching them what is and is not acceptable behavior (something you SHOULD do with any breed, but it is more necessary with these because of their strength and power). If you're not willing to do what is necessary and, as a result, something happens...YOU pay the price, not the dumb animal who knows no better.

As for Nancy Grace...I don't think she'll be on the air much longer...the woman is an absolute idiot, unintelligent and unable to think through any discussion. I didn't hear what she had to say about Pits simply because we don't watch her in our house...her show is one of three that we do not allow on because they tend to teach young people to "engage mouth while brain is in neutral".

Everyone have a great day..

<Stepping down from my soapbox>

SisMorphine · Nov 9, 2006

I didn't read the entire thread, but I think that instead of sending emails to Nancy Grace, which will get us nowhere, we need to send letters to CNN to get her OFF the air.

Bobsk8 · Nov 9, 2006

adoptashelterpettoday said:

The program that I watched had Pit Bull at the top and as I already stated, the next dog was half the number of attacks. Then it dropped way off.

Have I ever met a Pitt Bull?.. I see them all the time and try to avoid them as much as possible. There is one park in Atlanta that is dangerous to go in with your dog, because of them number of these dogs and more than a few are pretty nasty....

I encountered a 2 year old dog at the vet Emergency clinic a couple of months ago that had his leg almost ripped of by a Pit Bull as his wife was walking there dog down the street. A member of my cycling club was attacked by 3 of them as he was walking his dog in his neighborhood and he said it took all the strength he had to beat them off. He also said if his wife had been walking their dog, it probably would have been much worse. He had to get over 20 stitches and his dog did too. These 2 episodes all occurred in the span of a few months.. There is a Pit Bull that walks in the local Park on Saturdays where a few of us go quite often, and when this dog comes down the path with his owner who looks like an actor in a Rap Gang Movie, all the other dog owners beat a hasty retreat. This dog ever gets loose, someone is going to get really injured, I always have my hand on my can of Halt when I see this dog coming.

That's enough to convince me that there is a problem with this breed...

adoptashelterpettoday · Nov 9, 2006

This one is too long so I am spliting it in half. Very informative and very true. Think about it................

"Which breeds are the most dangerous?

Which ones bite without warning? Which ones are likely to attack unprovoked? Which breeds have unstable temperaments, and can't be trusted?

Quick - which breeds come to mind? Are you thinking Pitbulls, Presas, Rottweilers? Dobermans or Chows? German Shepherds or Akitas?

Wrong. In fact, really wrong.

Contrary to popular belief, these breeds are not the most dangerous. In fact, not a single animal welfare organization on the planet will give you a list of dangerous breeds, but we will..............

Just The Facts

Fact: The CDC has stopped reporting bite statistics by breed, as these numbers are driven by eyewitness reports, and are very often inaccurate. Why did the CDC stop? Because misidentification of breed is extremely common, making eyewitness reports an unreliable source.

In her book, Fatal Dog Attacks, author Karen Delise has studied the statistics and the stories behind these rare but deadly events. A top expert in this specialized field, she has concluded that a number of factors are present in a fatal attack.

Fact: On average, there are fewer than 30 deaths annually in the U.S. due to fatal dog maulings. Statistically, these tragedies are incredibly rare, as the dog population of 79 million. The stats on deaths by breed are available, as there are so few, and yes, Pitbulls and Rottweilers are on the list. But so are other breeds you might not imagine.

But what the media and politicians don't tell you is that the breeds on this list are driven by breed popularity, and that over the years, the types of breeds on this list have shifted.

So why are these breeds on the list? The answer is this - breed popularity drive the stats, but perhaps even more intangible is that breed popularity with irresponsible dog owners is an even bigger factor.

The #1 Factor

The absolute, number one factor that determines whether or not a dog will become dangerous is............... ownership.

And in compiling this list of dangerous breeds, you'll note they all share one trait in common - they are all human.

That's right, humans are most responsible for dangerous dogs. Humans are responsible for creating the circumstances and behavior that lead to dog bites or maulings. Get it right, Bubba - Humans.

Top Ten Most Dangerous Breeds

10. Criminal Dog Owners - They vary in size, shape, color and creed. Whether urban or rural, they thrive in environments where crime does pay.

This breed may deliberately train dogs to be human aggressive. This breed has been known to shoot dogs for fun it. They fight dogs and use sweet tempered dogs as bait. Here in the New York area - they've been known to feed dogs ground up glass and gun power to toughen them up - you know-In case the police kick the front door - they're out the back - and the dogs are in between.

9. Irresponsible and Ignorant Dog Owners

Characterized by a complete lack of common sense and or manners, these dog owners come in three distinct varieties - Dumb, Dumber and Plain Stupid.

However they do share the same breed traits, like

1. Complete disregard for local leash or pooper scooper laws
2. Stubborn, self-centered rudeness
3. The inability to see the potential consequences for their behavior

So here are the three types:

Dumb- When Snowball whines to go out, they throw open the front door and let her out to wander the neighborhood. Snowball is free to poop and pee wherever she likes. And if Snowball should wander into my yard and my dog defends its territory, like many dogs .......we've got a problem.

Dumber- Easy to recognize, this genius nonchalantly walks their dog off leash in the neighborhood, like it's no big deal. WEll in my book - it is a big deal. How would you like it if I let my dog run up to your children off leash. Or run up to any person who may be afraid of dogs. (and BTW - I support off leash space - just not on the block). And it's not OK if your dog takes a dump in my flowerbed, got that?

Plain Stupid- Waaaaay short on common sense - they let their children play unattended with dogs, or let them run up to pet a stranger's dog or get in a strange dog's face.

8. Negligent or Abusive Dog Owners

Like sociopaths who lack basic the human trait of compassion - this all-too-common breed is well known for a lack of care or concern. They are, however, gifted and talented in the areas of neglect or cruelty.

These G & Ts routinely fail to give their animals even the basics of food, water or shelter or fail to provide vet care.

Even beating the dog is OK for these people- it's only a dog. Kick it if it gets in your way, wants food or attention. OK - so cruel and unusual punishment is against law, so giving them the same treatment is out. Too bad.

Nancy Grace has gone too far

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