my dog is growling and snapping at me..

[tempura tantrum]

I'm in agreement with Saje- in the world of canids, true alphas don't have to resort to physical methods to gain compliance. It's the canine version of "walk softly and carry a big stick," if you will. If you ever watch wolves you'll see what I mean. Omegas will roll over onto their backs independently to show that they mean no threat, but you'll almost never see an aggressive exchange between the two.

The only time you'll see any sort of aggression is when one animal does not understand it's place- it's a last resort, and happens pretty infrequently.

 

[filarotten]

Did you ever socialize this dog? I don't see anywhere in your post where you have done that... That could be some of your problems.

I have to say...I rescued Maggie, my Shiz mix almost 3 years ago. She is my most difficult dog. Not my Fila and not my Rottie. I would never consider rolling her intentionally as she would bite. But she is used to getting her tummy rubbed when she is on her back, and is fine...I have never believed in the alpha roll, I think it is unnecessary.

I really am not sure what she is mixed with, but we had our work cut out for us when I picked her up from the store that someone dumped her at. She seemed like a perfect angel when I brought her home...as the days wore on and she felt at home, the demon side appeared...

NILIF did not work with Maggie, she didn't care...she would walk off, she would starve before sitting to eat, get a treat or whatever...She has been hard to reach, emotional wise, what I did find out that works with her is... no Ma mm, she does respond to that.

She does love the grand baby though.

We have worked thru most of the issues, but it still takes me and Keith together to trim her nails, she still tears every toy up she can, the big dogs toys...not hers, and she isn't crazy about company...very few people are allowed to pet her...she prefers to stay by herself... and her latest issue, believe it or not, is bullying Brutus over his food bowl. He lets her have it, and walks away...

 

[jamiechew]

Did you ever socialize this dog? I don't see anywhere in your post where you have done that... That could be some of your problems.

I agree.. Jamie wasn't around enough people or different situations when he was a puppy.. and when I took him shopping, he was in that dumb snugglie bag instead of being on the ground where he should have been. On the times when we do take him for walks in crowded situations he has always gotten along very well with other dogs, but he has never liked people, whether he was in the bag or at the end of a leash.

 

[jamiechew]

I just tried something new with Jamie.. before when I brushed him, I would do his face then (lately) put on a muzzle to prevent him snapping at me while I put him on his back to do the underside of his legs and his tummy, and then lie him one one side than the other side. Today I put him on the counter with his leash and collar on and made him stand like he does at the groomers.. well I am happy to say that except for a brief moment of growling at the beginning which I just did a "uh uh" sound and he stopped, for the rest of the grooming he just stood there and even lifted up his back legs at the right time so I could do them.. no growling or bad behaviour whatever! what a difference!!!

 

[Debi]

I've had the same problem with my husband not following the rules, and then having my Addie be a little witch. I had to work the hardest to train the hubby!!!!!!!!!!!!! then.......she was a breeze. LOL she is stubborn so NILIF isn't always working, but it's still the best training I've found to control her. she always wants to be the top banana, so it does have to be a constant.

 

[sharpei-girl]

I can't give you advice,but don't let him near your granddaughter alone for a second.

my daughter was attacked by a golden retriever when she was 3 years old,he almost killed her,it happend in a couple of seconds,so please watch out,especially when he is argressive like that...

 

[jamiechew]

attacked by a golden retreiver? wow! I thought they were always friendly..

thank you for your concern regarding my granddaughter, I'll be keeping a close eye on them when they are in the same room, which I hope is very seldom.. and I do intend to muzzle him when she is here.

 

[filarotten]

Don't stop NILIF by any means, I believe in it...don't get me wrong. I was just saying I had to implement more authority in my voice than most dogs require. No yelling, but no room for doubt that I meant business. Maggie is a tough little cookie.

Glad the brushing went well.

 

[Fran27]

I really think you should see a behaviorist again. In my experience NILIF doesn't really help with agression, at least it never worked with my dog - he's always willing to do something when there's something in it for him, but when there isn't it can be a problem. I'm not sure anymore that it's such a good way of getting them to know that we are the 'alpha' because of it - it doesn't hurt though.

Agression is a serious matter and I really think it requires professional help, but even then it will take lots of training to make it manageable. Either way, I would not put that dog in the same room as a child, even with supervision.

 

[bubbatd]

Shar... I've never had a Golden that would snap or bite, nor ever seen one. It had to be bad breeding or lack of early socialization. As to the alpha roll , if this isn't done from day one with the breeder and then continued by the new owner , I can see how it wouldn't work. It may be different with breeds too. Jamie... I do see " an attitude " in your pups eyes. I truly feel sorry for you. I personally don't think I could ever own a dog that might bite me.I do hope things work out for you.

 

[Julie]

I think everyone knows people define things in different manners and circumstances.

I wanted to bring up this alpha roll thing.

I think there is a big difference in some peoples definitions.

One circumstance:
Dog growls or nips at you.........you throw him over on his back and hold him down to profess your dominance. This is performing an "alpha roll" for correction. This is what doesn't work. This is what alot of people think of as an alpha roll.

Another circumstance:
As a socialization technique started from a pup. Petting the dog....gently roll him over and touch anything that you want with no reaction. Getting the dog used to being touched and carressed by humans. Basically an all over body rub in any position you want the dog in. Without stuggling from the dog. I think this also lets the dog know who is alpha, but not in a stressful situation. And not using it as a correction for bad behaviour. I think some people call this an "alpha roll", but this in my book is just another form of socialization and would be good for any puppy to experience. The dog will learn trust even though in a vulnerable postion such as on his back.

Two totally different things if you ask me.
And I know different people could be referring to either one, with the same name.

Sorry if off topic, but just my view on that particular mention in this thread.

Julie.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Just to answer this for you.

Temperment is not "genetic" there is no gene for temperment. Temperment is a "learned" behavior. If you have a nice sound female with good manners etc then that female is going to have nice sound pups because they "learn" from her. I have seen some breeders breed a bad tempered female because the female is "perfect" for showing. The pups were taken away from the mother at about 3 1/2 weeks just after being weaned. The pups turned out wonderful and very human orientated.

Motor patterns and genetic traits can be passed down from sire/dam to offspring. Not so much temperment. I have seen the worst parents (Rottweilers, Shepherds etc.) that I couldn't get near on a good day have wonderful pups just because the pups never got a chance to "learn" any bad behaviors.

So, next time your looking at pups and the mother is horrid and the father is sweet. Look at the dog the pups are learning behaviors from. Not the male, the female.

This is FALSE.

Temperament in dogs is ABSOLUTELY inherited.

This is why we have working lines in certain breeds. It's why pointers point, Labs retrieve, and Rottweilers are territorial.

 

[bubbatd]

I agree with Redy...

 

[tempura tantrum]

Julie- very good point!

I think you're right, a lot of people do tend to mix the two techniques up, but they are *very* different both in manner and in purpose.

One, as you pointed out, is a correction, the other is a socialization technique. It didn't occur to me that we could all easily be talking about two different techniques!

Also, I have to agree with Redyre-

There is NO way to completely discount the influence genetics have on temperament, be it canine or even human. Temperament is a *combination* of nature and nurture.

A perfect example is the litter my own b!tch had last September. Kimi is a very typical Shiba b!tch. We describe her as being somewhat "feral." She's not particularly cuddly, tends to want to do her own thing, and doesn't generally give a lick about anyone outside of our own family. It's a rare day that anyone save for me or my sister gets a tail wag out of her! The stud we chose for her is her polar opposite in terms of temperament. Taro is exceedingly friendly. According to my dogs' breeder, she had to be very firm in teaching him to stand still for an examination, because he was apt to roll over for a belly rub in the breed ring when the judge went over him! Taro has never met a soul he didn't like. The puppies ended up ALL having temperaments like Taro- there is literally not a shade of Kimi in any of them temperament-wise. According to the breeder, she has seen this in nearly EVERY litter he has produced. He is truly a prepotent sire, and is now the top-producing Shiba stud of all time.

 

[Fran27]

Yes I wanted to comment on that comment also but totally forgot - I definitely agree with Red about temperaments.

 

[bubbatd]

That's why my males were so in demand..... most of the time their temperment came through .

 

[lapdog]

NILIF is good. It gets you to treat your dog like a dog, with you in control. How long have you been trying this? One thing I know is that when you implement something new, you get extinction behavior, which is when the behavior worsens before it gets better. Its their attempt to keep things status quo. If you hold out longer than them, they will eventually adjust. I would absolutely withdraw all attention from the dog for a few days. Not even eye contact. Then only give it back in small increments, when he is behaving appropriately.

 

[jamiechew]

thank you all for your replies.. kind of an update.. Jamie has been doing a lot better since I started using the NILIF.. and also since I've been making him heel and wait to be invited out of and into the house. I've been walking him around trees like a figure 8 and making him sit upon halting and he is doing really well.. this morning I groomed him the old way where he used to fall asleep which was lying in my lap and he was not aggressive in the least.. its been a month since he was at the groomers, and when he came home from them last time he was visibly shaking and nervous for a few days after that but we just thought he didn't like his new shorter haircut.. well, I found out this morning that a neighbour had her small shih tzu there for grooming and the lady who did Jamie did her dog and the owner of this dog got a call saying that she better get up there because the dog's eye had popped out! they told her what vet to go to and paid the bill so obviously they had done something which made the eye pop out. the lady who was grooming this dog is the same one that did Jamie last. now I am wondering if this could be the cause of some of his aggression to people..

I got the name of a behaviourist from the vet who turns out to be someone I took a German Shepherd to for dog obedience many years ago. if Jamie continues the way he is now, which is quite improved, I think things will be OK but at least I have someone I can turn to if he regresses again.

this morning someone came to the door and Jamie did his normal barking stuff but I made him sit and he quieted down so hopefully he is on the mend.

 

[mojozen]

Vicki - that is wonderful to hear! I am so happy for you and Jaime. I would definately investigate the groomer further... Being groomed shouldn't have to be a traumatizing experience. Do you think you could get him groomed elsewhere? Maybe ask your vet or trainer for recommendations...

Good luck!

 

[Doberluv]

That is wonderful news that things are shaping up so nicely.

I bet that groomer did something to make your dog fearful. I'd definitely not go back. My goodness!!!! That poor dog of your neighbor's! Eye popped out??? Good grief! She should be reported to someone.

Anyhow...keep up the good work and I bet you can convince your dog that grooming is really a great experience, complete with a massage and treats. LOL.