My Beagle is Stubborn

[Martin Fitzgerald]

I have this 4 months old Beagle named Shiloh. He's a good dog, just very stubborn. I finally got him leash trained, but I had to use my other dog, Marco, as a guide of how its done. LOL.

Potty training is not getting the total concept of. He goes outside, but he pooped on my bed yesterday night. I didnt know when, so i couldnt smack him for it. He hasnt done it since. I has alot of accidents in the house if hes not taken out as much as we would like him to be out.

He doesnt stay outside for longer then 30 minutes, even when Marco is out there. He howls and whines at the door til someone gives in and lets him in. I have never had a Beagle, let alone train one, so some pointers would be helpful.

 

[houndlove]

Please do not smack your dog. That's my first pointer. Not ever, not for anything. It accomplishes nothing.

Second: no matter what the breed, 4 months is still too young to assume a dog should be completely housetrained. Six months is more the time that after that I'd start to expect progress to really be made. But if he isn't housetrained yet, if you can't be actively supervising him, he needs to be confined. He shouldn't be loose anywhere in the house where someone can't be watching him like a hawk.

Third: Most dogs don't want to spend that much time outside without their people. They're social animals, they like to be with their families, inside where it's comfy.

Beagles are scenthounds. Scenthounds have some unique properties that I find makes them charming but other people have some problems dealing with sometimes. You just have to try to see things from their perspective. Scenthounds are bred to hunt, and hunt in a way that does not require a human being to tell them what to do. They go out and do their thing and then they make a racket and the hunter follows the sound of the racket and locates their dogs and whatever animal their dogs have trapped or killed. That's really different from what, say, a lab or a pointer does which is very closely related to the hunter giving them a lot of directions to go this way or that way, and do this and that. That's why labs (when trained) are so focused on listening to people and hounds...well they're just not so much. Hounds were bred to be independent thinkers and problem-solvers because they have to be able to do their work without any humans around telling them what to do.

To train a hound, keep your training sessions very short (my coonhound I consider extremely biddable and trainable for his breed but he's got about a 20-30 minute limit on training which kind of sucks since our training classes are an hour long!). Keep them VERY positive. Use lots of rewards for doing the right thing (and hounds love food so this is usually easy). Keep things up-beat. Do not punish. If the dog screws up and doesn't do something right, turn away and withhold the reward and then try again. Hounds tend to be sensitive, especially beagles. You don't want your hound to be afraid of you or think you're no fun to be around, because they are independent enough to eventually decide they've had enough of you and your unpleasantness. Be the most amazing, wonderful, rewarding, fantabulous thing in your hound's life.

Practice NILIF: http://www.k9deb.com/nilif

Crate-train and keep housetraining positive (lots of rewards for pottying outside, which means he shouldn't just be let out on his own to do his business--he needs someone there watching him doing it and then rewarding like crazy and having a giant potty part for him). If your neighbors do not think you are crazy, you are not doing it righ!

 

[Martin Fitzgerald]

My family doesnt understand the dog, as where I try to. I raised my Pitt/Cattle Dog mix on my own and his obedience is fairly good. I can even trust him without a leash in safe zones where he cant get hurt.

I just found Shiloh to be a challenge, and being I have to take the time to train him, it does get frustrating with family saying hes a bad dog, and that hes a pain. I dont smack, and never have actually had to smack Marco. I was hoping for the same with Shiloh. He just seems to be stubborn. Kinda like hes testing his boundries or something. To see what he can get away with. LOL.

 

[Cheetah]

He really shouldn't be left outside alone for an extended period of time anyway, but I should mention that when he barks and barks to get in and then somebody finally does let him in, he learns that if he barks longer and louder and never gives up, that eventually, it will pay off by him being let in like he wants. >^^;<

I also agree with the smacking. All it will teach him is to be afraid of you. I agree with confining him away from the spots he has begun to have accidents in, so he won't get into the habit, and when you do catch him in the act, just scoop him up immediately and rush him outside (like, don't stand around and wait for him to finish, my best friend does that lol).

 

[Martin Fitzgerald]

I'm not abusive with Shiloh. My other dog loves me. He loyal and hes had to be smacked accouple time for biting. You two might not agree with it, but like kids, sometimes just a slap on the wrist and a 'No, dont do that' doesnt work. My opinion, like I said, hes feeling the waters to see if he can gain control. Its not gonna work. I love him but he isnt gonna screw with my head. He can do it to the rest of my family, but not mine. LOL.

 

[IliamnasQuest]

houndlove gave you some great advice, and I'm going to repeat some of that.

You've got a couple of things that you (and your family) really need to understand. First, you have a baby there. At four months old he's like a 1 year old child (roughly) and he can't be expected to understand consequences for actions at this point. He doesn't poop on your bed because he's bad or being spiteful. He's just being a puppy, an untrained baby, and he can't help it. If you tell your family that he's no more advanced than a human child of a year old, it may help them understand that he's just not able to be "perfectly trained".

It has nothing to do with control. A four month old pup is not trying to control you, nor is he testing the waters. He's just being a puppy. If he potties in the house, that's 100% the fault of the humans around him. He can't understand fully, at this age, that he needs to only potty outside and when the urge hits him (or when he gets anxious or stressed) he's likely to go wherever he happens to be - or go to a place where he's pottied before in the house. This is NORMAL. The way to deal with it is to not let him run around the house when you can't actively be watching him. That means your eyes need to be focused on him, and not on the TV or the stove or the shower. When you can't watch him, he should be confined in a small comfortable area.

I have a 4.5 month old pup right now and I've had her for over 2 months. I don't have a problem with her housebreaking because I keep her confined when I can't watch her. When I take her out of her kennel area, we run straight outside where I stay with her while she pees and poops - and I praise like crazy when she does that. She comes running back to me with her ears forward and her body wiggling because she's learned that she's done something to make me happy. Then we go inside and she gets some free time to run around, interact with the other dogs, etc. while I WATCH her. If I need to get some work done or take a shower or anything else, then I fill her kong with goodies and I put her back into her kennel (actually she races ahead of me and has learned to smack the kennel door with her paw to get it to pop open so she can go in .. *L*). She likes her kennel because I feed her there and I make it a good place for her - and I make an effort to spend good quality time with her frequently every day.

Keep in mind, too, that you've got a breed (like houndlove explained) that is not going to just do whatever you want just because you want it. Beagles are independent dogs and have been bred to think for themselves. I have chows and they have pretty much the same attitude. I have to be very consistent, fair, kind and rewarding to make them work for me and it turns out really well, but it does take some effort on my part. My shepherds pretty much ask me "what do you want us to do for you??" while the chows are more like "what's in it for us?". You've chosen a breed that's going to take a lot more effort on your part than the herding breed mix you also have. You can't compare the two.

YOU need to become a better trainer for this little guy - if you or your family think of him as "bad" or as deliberately doing bad things, it's not fair to the dog. He's a baby and he needs to be treated that way. And you need to learn how to work with an independent breed. You can do it and in the process you'll learn a LOT (and that's a really good thing - I wouldn't be nearly as good of a trainer if I only worked with easier breeds!).

Good luck, love the little guy and please have your family read the information you're given here so that they can understand that the puppy is just a baby too.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[Martin Fitzgerald]

You dont understand my family. Not counting where my grandparents were born, we originated from the East Coast, but the passed 12 years we've been living on the West Coast. My family dont understand sh*t, exuse my french. They believe that because my aunt had a Beagle named Shelly, that was sooo perfect. She didnt bark, nothing, but she loved to go hunting with my uncle.

Anyway, they think Shiloh is stupid because hes a West Coast dog and not a Perfect East Coast dog. I listened to them the entire time I had Marco, which was for almost two years, saying how stupid his is and all that. I get tired of hearing it everyday.

Now I know Shiloh is a challenge, as I meantioned before, but when you gotta listen to that from family, its frustrating. Cause you try to explain to them that the dog isnt gonna stop just because I tell him too. You have to teach him. They reply with 'Teach him faster'. I cant make him learn with limits. I understand it takes time.

 

[houndlove]

Well, we can't do anything to change your family's mind. You asked for advice on housetraining and training a beagle in general and you've gotten it. I don't know what else we can do for you aside from fly to the west coast and give your family a powerpoint presentation on beagles.

 

[mrose_s]

You have some good advice here, I soemtimes wish it was as easy to train your family as it is to train a dog.

First thing, you have a baby. And teaching anything to a dog at any age is like you learning a whole new language, it takes time till your reliable and fluent with it.
Youhave a beagle, a breed I won't own due to their stubborness mainly.
There is a good sticky in this training forum about house training.
At 4 months your puppy isn't going to get housetraining just yet,the trick is to make ALL training the best thing ever, this rewards the dog for good behaviour, it is setting them up for success so you don't have to punish them when they fail.

 

[Xerxes]

My family doesnt understand the dog, as where I try to. I raised my Pitt/Cattle Dog mix on my own and his obedience is fairly good. I can even trust him without a leash in safe zones where he cant get hurt.

I just found Shiloh to be a challenge, and being I have to take the time to train him, it does get frustrating with family saying hes a bad dog, and that hes a pain. I dont smack, and never have actually had to smack Marco. I was hoping for the same with Shiloh. He just seems to be stubborn. Kinda like hes testing his boundries or something. To see what he can get away with. LOL.

Don't even try to equate the mindset of a hound to the mindset of a cattle dog mix. It won't work. They operate on different levels, completely. Beagles have been bred to follow a scent and live in a pack atmosphere, for the most part devoid of much human interaction. Cattle dogs were bred to actively herd or drove cattle following the instructions of a human. Which one seems more likely to have been bred for trainability?

Yes, hounds are a challenge. They can be independent and stubborn. They seem to ask "what's in it for me?" quite often. Heck at 4 months old my hound was already talking back. He's almost 3 now and knows somewhere in the vicinity of 40-50 different behaviors on cue. So hounds can be trained-it just takes retraining the thought and teaching patterns of the human.

What does your dog want? Food is the most likely guess. Play is another good one. Excitement and a trail to follow follow up as rewards. These are the things that you need to use as reinforcers. Training sessions should be very short. I trained 3-5 minutes per behavior, probably 3 times a week. While hounds are stubborn, if they know that performing behaviors on cue gets them a reward, they are more than compliant, they are enthusiastic about compliance.

Most Beagles are re-homed specifically for the reasons you mentioned in your original post. The truth is that beagles can be trained successfully as long as YOU, the human, learn how to understand your dog. Part of that understanding is knowing that he's not a herding or a sporting dog. He's a hound. Hounds traditionally have been bred to work with humans but not for humans.

 

[Saintgirl]

Beagles are stubborn little buggers aren't they? We have an 8 month old who gives me a run for my money everyday, but I love that he has taught me so much more about canine behaviors and training techniques. My other two dogs are so eager to please and quick ot learn, but my little bugger...errr beagle gets distracted so easily. The number one key is patience and consistency. Shiloh is still just a little baby, you can teach the pup but you also have to teach yourself how to teach the hound. You have been given wonderful advice, and with a gentle hand your pup can and will be trained. Positive reinforcement works wonders and luckily beagles live for food so reinforcers are simple.

 

[Martin Fitzgerald]

Yeah its great advice when I sit here and actually read it through. Now i wish I could get the family to quit whining about him and help me be consistant on teachin him when I cant be there.

 

[Dekka]

Can you take your pup to a good obedience class, and then take some of your family too? It can be hard to change peoples minds lol.

 

[Martin Fitzgerald]

No they got the dog because my aunt's sister-in-law didnt want him because he howled alot. So my aunt gave him to my brother. I got stuck training him because noone else has the patience.

As I said I trained my cattle dog mix and hes fine. Not to compare, just stating. I also have a 4 week old Manx kitten that i'm working on gettin off the bottle. So I have my hands full. Shiloh also has this habit of eating outta the litterbox. Marco used to but i broke him of it. Shiloh seems to ignore me when I say no.

They do have two totally different personalities, and its fine. I just wish the training could stay consistant with the whole family, not just me. Not that I havent tried to get them involved. Even my 10 year old brother, is stubborn about training his dog. Then my aunt has the nerve to complain that Shiloh wants to be around me all the time and not my brother. I gave up on trying to explain it, cause its like talking to a wall.

 

[Baxter'smybaby]

sounds like you have alot on your plate! Beagles definitely will follow their nose...and that includes to find wonderful treats such as kitty poo! Your best strategie with that is to find a place where Shiloh can't get to it. Beagles will usually find anything to eat--and if you are not there to tell them no, chances are they will eat it. Getting your family on board would be a hugh asset to your training this dog. If they understood their help would make it happen faster, would they be helpful? If not, persistence and patience on your end is really the key.

 

[Martin Fitzgerald]

Okay, hes getting better with the potty training, so thats a good thing. I'm still working on the crate training. I even bought him one of those Kong things that you fill with treats and peanut butter, whatever they have to put in it. I'm hoping it works, cause I cant babysit him every minute of the day.

 

[Baxter'smybaby]

freeze the peanut butter in the kong--it will last longer! Congrats, and keep at it!

 

[Martin Fitzgerald]

I stuck him on a chain today so he didnt get out of the yard while I had the back gate open. You know long enough to put the trash out. Its routine with Marco, but anyway, Shiloh faught with it abit, then he was fine. He sat quietly and waited til I came back over to let him off. I praised him for being good and let him off.

The Kong is awesome. I froze it lastnight like suggested, and I stuck him in the kennel about an hour ago. Hes going to town on it. Hes quiet. No howling or whining. I left the room a few times and nothing.

 

[Saintgirl]

Crates are wonderful training aids. Make sure that you don't take him out if he is whinning and such. Let him out while he is still being quiet. He will learn that his crate is a fun place to be, and a relaxing place to be!

My beagle pup goes into his crate on his own when he is sleepy or wants to relax. He didn't want to be in his crate when we first got him, but now he loves his little den!

 

[Martin Fitzgerald]

My family bitches at me when he whines. I said chill out, hes gotta learn, and to do that i have to do this. He'll stop evenually. Which means hes gettin to idea of the crate.